PL issues

[Ben Cooper]

And if can be made better still, why not go for it?

I suppose "better" is in the eye of the beholder.

You seem to think that progress is a rejection of the past in general
and of Susan in particular. If that were the case, I should have been
devastated that Susan simply threw out all my layouts without so much
as a heads-up my way. Instead, I have posted time and again about the
great job that Susan has done. Why? Because I can see the value in
her contributions.

I have to wonder, though. Why the sudden, renewed interest in how the
site is done?
I haven't seen any complaints, outside of a couple of knuckleheads who
wouldn't be happy no matter what was being done.

This is NOT a competition, the goal here is to have the best set-up
for the users of the PL.
Again, I don't understand why you continue to view this in an
adversarial light. There is no reason for it at all.
Again, I am NOT trying to toss Susan aside.

I must disagree. It *is* a competition. Why don't you just do what it is
you want to do, get it all set up on a nice, quiet corner of the site
and then show it to Susan and see what she thinks of it?
Then, if all involved agree that it's better, remove the old stuff and
go live with the new.

If the implication is that I have been rounding out veteran posters
for support, you could not be more mistaken. It is not my style to
ask other people to speak for me. If those posters are coming out of
the shadows, they are doing it for their own reasons.

It wasn't an implication, it was an observation.

 

[POKO]

Very.

Thank you John for that. So...everybody cool their heels and let the two
ladies sort it out amongst themselves. (Hopefully in e-mail)
Best,
POKO
--
P. Keenan - Webmaster
Web Page Design
Manitoulin Island, Canada
http://manitoulinislandwebdesign.it-mate.co.uk/
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Son Of Spy]

I agree, but John Corliss will be along to bitch and moan RSN.

wrong:
www.ccountry.net/~jcorliss/fwsites.htm
Son Of Spy's Freeware - A huge repository of freeware. Easy navigation
<<and a great site search engine.>>

Cheers!

Son Of Spy
--

Some You Won't Find Anywhere Else...

http://www.sover.net/~wysiwygx/index.html

. --- . . - - - - - - - - - - - -
/ SOS \ __ / Freeware - - - - - -
/ / \ ( ) / - - - - -
/ / / / / / / \/ \ - - - -
/ / / / / / / : : - - -
/ / / / / ' ' - -
/ / //..\\
=====UU==UU=====
'///||\\\'
' '' '

 

[Son Of Spy]

Here's an idea...dump the site and let's all migrate to Linux

ROFL
--

Some You Won't Find Anywhere Else...

http://www.sover.net/~wysiwygx/index.html

. --- . . - - - - - - - - - - - -
/ SOS \ __ / Freeware - - - - - -
/ / \ ( ) / - - - - -
/ / / / / / / \/ \ - - - -
/ / / / / / / : : - - -
/ / / / / ' ' - -
/ / //..\\
=====UU==UU=====
'///||\\\'
' '' '

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

I must disagree. It *is* a competition.

Why do you say this? In what sense do you believe "it" to be a
competition?

Why don't you just do what it is you want to do, get it all set up
on a nice, quiet corner of the site and then show it to Susan and
see what she thinks of it? Then, if all involved agree that it's
better, remove the old stuff and go live with the new.

IOW, if you have an idea about improving the handling of the PL, you
should go to all the work yourself then submit it to the group for
possible approval?

ISTM a better idea first to have a discussion about the merits
and/or drawbacks as well as find out if there are volunteers willing
and able to do the work.

As I understand it, Susan currently maintains a local database and
uses it to put together the html which is then uploaded to the
webspace. And the suggestion being made is to transition to an
online database with a web-facing frontend.

ISTM that among the benefits would be easy searching, scalability,
and the possibility of having more than one person maintain the
database.

Once set up, it would take someone(s) willing and able to make sure
the database and its web interface keep working well. And someone(s)
with write-access to maintain the entries. As the PL grows, ISTM
that the ability to have have different volunteers directly
responsible for maintaining different apps' entries would be a Good
Thing.

Another consideration is keeping track of the voting itself. Susan
has created a wonderful way to keep track of the voting in
very-near-real-time, using the current setup, and her continued work
with that each time around is invaluable. If it can't be done just
as efficiently (and made as quickly available online) under any new
setup, I'd say that would be enough reason to drop the idea.

JanC, you seem to have a very good grip on what's possible. Could
you outline how an online database setup would be, how it would work
for maintainers as well as website visitors?

 

[Alastair Smeaton]

I agree, but John Corliss will be along to bitch and moan RSN.

I doubt it - John has better things to do than respond to your baiting

 

[POKO]

ISTM that among the benefits would be easy searching, scalability,
and the possibility of having more than one person maintain the
database.

Once set up, it would take someone(s) willing and able to make sure
the database and its web interface keep working well. And someone(s)
with write-access to maintain the entries. As the PL grows, ISTM
that the ability to have have different volunteers directly
responsible for maintaining different apps' entries would be a Good
Thing.
This would result IMHO to be a clusterflux. Too many hands in the pie,
POKO
--
P. Keenan - Webmaster
Web Page Design
Manitoulin Island, Canada
http://manitoulinislandwebdesign.it-mate.co.uk/
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Semolina Pilchard]

Once set up, it would take someone(s) willing and able to make sure
the database and its web interface keep working well. And someone(s)
with write-access to maintain the entries. As the PL grows, ISTM
that the ability to have have different volunteers directly
responsible for maintaining different apps' entries would be a Good
Thing.

This would result IMHO to be a clusterflux. Too many hands in the pie,

I re-enter this debate with some trepidation. My knowledge of HTML is
limited to writing helpfiles a dozen years ago and subsequently. I
have more knowledge of databases, having written database based
business systems since 1975. I have no idea how they are deployed in
websites, but generally speaking, there is no comparison between
text+command arrangements like HTML and compiled files such as a
database for speed of access, display, query and search. Database
works natively, HTML is so much slower.

That's not to say I believe that the Pricelessware site should be
changed. In my experience it works well. It may be that a reasonable
projection suggests that its present format and level of usage points
to a change. We have yet to see such a projection.

Pricelesswre was Son of Spy's idea, which Genna made a reality and
administered for several years. As I remember it, and I am a reader
and contributor since 1997, Genna is the progenitor of Pricelessware
as we know it. She did the basic groundwork of what we have today.
Susan has kept it alive since Genna took a back seat, she has done
herculean work and she has improved upon Gemma's template by a
considerable measure.

Genna's ownership of the site is a reality, but almost an irrelevance
( if you will forgive me for saying so, Genna). It is my belief that
Son of Spy, Genna and Susan are all equally committed to keeping the
concept of Pricelessware alive. What the group has to do now is to
thoroughly debate the Pricelessware site's future. In reality,
there's no reason for it to move to another domain. We can sort this
out among ourselves where it is at present.

 

[Roger Johansson]

My knowledge of HTML is
limited to writing helpfiles a dozen years ago and subsequently. I
have more knowledge of databases, having written database based
business systems since 1975. I have no idea how they are deployed in
websites, but generally speaking, there is no comparison between
text+command arrangements like HTML and compiled files such as a
database for speed of access, display, query and search. Database
works natively, HTML is so much slower.

I think it works like this: When we go to a databased web site there are
no readymade html pages to look at. Instead every url is a request to
the server to put together a page based on the request.

Such a web site is slower than normal html, because every request has to
be processed in real time, data have to be fetched and put together
before a temporary html page can be created and sent back to the
requester.

Such web sites also often use very strange-looking urls.

If it is that kind of database system which is suggested I must say that
I like the current system better. The database is off-line, and is used
to create readymade html pages which can be downloaded into the browser
directly.

I understand that there are advantages with a databased system, but I
wonder if these advantages outweigh the disadvantages and all the extra
work.

Genna's ownership of the site is a reality, but almost an irrelevance
( if you will forgive me for saying so, Genna). It is my belief that
Son of Spy, Genna and Susan are all equally committed to keeping the
concept of Pricelessware alive. What the group has to do now is to
thoroughly debate the Pricelessware site's future. In reality,
there's no reason for it to move to another domain. We can sort this
out among ourselves where it is at present.

I agree.

 

[Ben Cooper]

Why do you say this? In what sense do you believe "it" to be a
competition?

It's a competition of methods, not personalities.

IOW, if you have an idea about improving the handling of the PL, you
should go to all the work yourself then submit it to the group for
possible approval?

No, IOW, set up a couple of pages to show how it will work.

[snip]

 

[LurkerXYZ]

Genna Reeney emailed me a few days ago regarding the Pricelessware site.
She wants to change the site to a database format. We have had some
email correspondence.

I want to understand about this from the standpoint of an end-user.
End-user defined here as a simpleton web-surfer, one without broadband.

I read pages at Pricelessware.org. And save pages. Importantly: I
download content/info from pricelessware.org, as a set of html pages.
Currently, everything is wysiwyg. All my software understands it.
Including even my default offline html renderer, OB1.

Databases on server? Things can become messy and complex for me, sometimes.

As is now, again, it's wysiwyg, when keeping a page. I am simply mirroring
a copy of a page, as it exists on server. The original URL and the original
page remote, they correspond. And all my software, even my lightest htm
readers, it's all in synch, and they all get along with priceleware.org
content.

When there is this complex server script stuff (that many of you understand,
and which I do not)...then I have sometimes problems copying pages from the
original site. It is online-oriented. Which I am not.

And at worst, that is occasionally intensely script-oriented. (I have lived
long and prospered by saying no to browser scripting.) That which can form
itself into a deal-breaker; death of it.

If you made this "database transition," will I have such problems? Will I
no longer have the ability to simply copy html files, with a static URL, to
my local drive -- in order to have this primary function of gaining all the
useful pricelessware information?

Some of you are sophisticated, and are thinking of maintenance issues, and
of implementation issues.

I am unsophisticated, and I am thinking about this in terms of my needs.

That is, what does this mean for me, if this new system? What can the
greatest majority of my software read; what will I be able to read and
comprehend; what can I save?


--?
signed, simpleton

 

[Susan Bugher]

Another consideration is keeping track of the voting itself. Susan
has created a wonderful way to keep track of the voting in
very-near-real-time, using the current setup, and her continued work
with that each time around is invaluable. If it can't be done just
as efficiently (and made as quickly available online) under any new
setup, I'd say that would be enough reason to drop the idea.

Thanks for the kind words. . . Counting the ballots is/can be a
separate operation. Spacey did the checking - he used a different method
that also works well. I don't think ballot counting will be a problem.

and. . .

Spacey has proposed a weighted voting procedure to give niche programs a
place on the list - that's one of the topics for discussion before the
next selection process starts.

I've got some thoughts on the pros and cons - but would like to hear
from the experts first.

Susan

 

[Susan Bugher]

Thanks for the kind words. . . Counting the ballots is/can be a
separate operation. Spacey did the checking - he used a different method
that also works well. I don't think ballot counting will be a problem.

and. . .

Spacey has proposed a weighted voting procedure to give niche programs a
place on the list - that's one of the topics for discussion before the
next selection process starts.

I've got some thoughts on the pros and cons - but would like to hear
from the experts first.

ACK! What I was *trying* to say:

I have some thoughts on the pros and cons of an *online* *database* -
but would like to hear from the experts first - *and* everyone else.

Susan

 

[jo]

I have some thoughts on the pros and cons of an *online* *database* -
but would like to hear from the experts first - *and* everyone else.

I think that you do a lot of work for the PL site and for the group,
and that you should do it in a way in which you feel most comfortable.
I do not think that you should suddenly have to start jumping through
hoops in order to satisfy anyone else's definition of 'efficiency'.

HTH

 

[REM]

LurkerXYZ <[email protected]> wrote:

I want to understand about this from the standpoint of an end-user.
End-user defined here as a simpleton web-surfer, one without broadband.

It seems a simple test would be a good idea to see how us crawlers do
when viewing what I think will be .cgi scripts?

The site works perfectly as it is. Stepping in slowly and accessing
the changes, and of course making sure that someone (or many) are
ready to expend the time and effort to keep it in top order all seem
very important to me. I think mirroring the projects is important in
stepping in.

There are some things a single person can do better than a group, such
as the current PL arrangement. Unless everyone directly involved is on
the same page daily and up to the task daily it can become a bog. I
base this on the various group projects I've been assigned to at
school. I think the volunteers we might find in ACF are more dedicated
than the kids I've tried to work with at school, but it would have
been many times simplier to do the projects myself than to communicate
with various people with differing schedules, priorties, capabilities,
etc. in the end.

I can't figure out how Susan does so much. I'm astounded. I can see a
need to grow in the future. But I see no problems presently. I'd feel
better if the database were a longer term goal, if it is indeed
necessary. Perhaps both can be offered to the users of the site.

If you made this "database transition," will I have such problems? Will I
no longer have the ability to simply copy html files, with a static URL, to
my local drive -- in order to have this primary function of gaining all the
useful pricelessware information?

Jeez, I'm not sure. I would "think" that a query would provide static
information that pertains to your request to the database. Static
until entries/changes into the database are made at least. This is
true for html also though. If a URL is changed you will have the old
URL until you get a fresh page onto your drive.

signed, simpleton

haha. You're in good company.

 

[GoodTime Barnie]

Some of you are sophisticated, and are thinking of maintenance issues, and
of implementation issues.

I am unsophisticated, and I am thinking about this in terms of my needs.

That is, what does this mean for me, if this new system? What can the
greatest majority of my software read; what will I be able to read and
comprehend; what can I save?


--?
signed, simpleton

I agree. I send friends to the site all the time who know nearly nothing
about computing, but need this or that type of program. They can find what
they need quite quickly now, what would these changes do for the average or
even below average user? These are the people we need to reach,advise, get
started in using freeware. Will these changes be helpful to them or is the
thought to merely make site maintenence easier? I would like to know the
results for the average end user before making any vote or definate stand
regarding this issue. I have through all this seen nothing that answers
these questions.....
Any input regarding this would be helpful to me and others I would
think.
GoodTime Barnie

 

[jason]

I want to understand about this from the standpoint of an end-user.
End-user defined here as a simpleton web-surfer, one without
broadband.

You brought up a lot of good points.

I'm onboard for not wanting any speed penalties. Whatever method is
adopted, dial-up users should not be penalized.

I'm also onboard for not wanting to have to use javascript...I dunno if
that's even involved (I'm a simpleton too), but if javascript is involved,
then it's bye-bye to PL for me.

 

[Demetrius Zeluff]

I doubt it - John has better things to do than respond to your baiting

He ploinked me.

 

[Piper]

I agree. I send friends to the site all the time who know nearly nothing
about computing, but need this or that type of program. They can find what
they need quite quickly now, what would these changes do for the average or
even below average user? These are the people we need to reach,advise, get
started in using freeware. Will these changes be helpful to them or is the
thought to merely make site maintenence easier? I would like to know the
results for the average end user before making any vote or definate stand
regarding this issue. I have through all this seen nothing that answers
these questions.....
Any input regarding this would be helpful to me and others I would
think.
GoodTime Barnie

I love the site. It's easy to find things and understand them when
you do.

 

[josiah-jenkins]

(e-mail address removed) wrote in

"Atomz Express Search is a free, reduced-feature version of our award-
winning Atomz Search"

Oh boy, you really *are* new here. That "reduced-feature" bit is going to
make you wish you never heard of atomz, let alone recommended them.

I may be new *here* but I'm not exactly a newbie.
Check my previous post on Atomz.
I've been using it for over a year without problems
and with no pestering from Atomz to upgrade.

-- The Despicable Stewart
-- Perfidious Alban
-- http://www.ian-stewart.dsl.pipex.com/