PL issues

[JanC]

The only question in my mind is whether this can be achieved in time.

Once all the desired functionality and the technical possibilities of the
webspace are known, this can be done in weeks...

 

[Ben Cooper]

That's not exact: everything on the site that's not attributed to
other people or organisations is suspected to be owned by the owner
of the site, but AFAIK all pages say "© alt.comp.freeware 1999-2004",
so everything is owned by everybody of us.
(All this until proof of ownership is given by someone else ;-)

That's a fair distinction, except for the alt.comp.freeware copyright.
Alt.comp.freeware can't enter into any legally binding contract and
would have no legal claim to such ownership. Class action? Maybe... but
who's going to want to join that fight? Then again... there's always the
ACLU.
Also, there are many participants in this group from various sovereign
nations; which court has jurisdiction?

 

[JanC]

It's not just an option to *consider*. That is exactly the *present*
setup.

Right, so what's the problem now?

- something less tied to 1 particular program is needed?
- more people should be able to help?
- dynamic searching & sorting wanted?
- ... ?

 

[Genna Reeney]

That's certainly a valid reason for not allowing full access. A new
site would not have that problem.

On the other hand, with a database system, there would be no need to have
access, because everything would be done through the input system.

It was corrected when you sent me a new password - but several days
and several emails is not efficient - I believe your stated goal *is*
more efficiency?

Susan, you are again misrepresenting the facts.
It took 2 emails from you, one in which you first alerted me to the problem
and another in which you responded to me that you still could not log in,
and 2 from me, one indicating that I didn't know what the problem was and
asking you to verify whether there was still a problem and another after I
reset the password. This all transpired between 7:30 one evening to 11:30
the next, a mere 28 hours. Hardly days and hardly several emails.

And again, this is the only time that anything like this has transpired. I
don't know why it did, but it is not an endemic problem.

Lack of access *is* a problem. Can *I* create the PL2005 directory?

You have got to be kidding me. Is this what this whole brouhaha is about?
I mentioned that it would not be necessary to create one if we move to a
database system as all subdomains would disappear once that happened.

If your objection was to the fact that I dismissed your need for a 2005
directory at this time since it is both premature and potentially redundant,
then you should have said as much. While I think it is wasted time and
effort to duplicate the work, if that is what you want to do, that's your
call. You have your directory.

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

Well, I'll take some blame for this. I *did* research the origins of
Pricelessware and I was being facetious when I said it was a sham.

Whew! Careful with those joke, man.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Susan Bugher]

There is an even longer period of time between PL2005 and PL2007.
The point of the exercise is to simplify life for everyone involved. If this
can be done in time for the PL2005, why wait an additional year? It seems
pointless to me.

Take the list you made of all the programs by year. Wouldn't it have been
much simpler to be able to simply enter a search string and get the results,
instead of hard-coding all of the information? Do you really want to go
through all of the same work by hand again in 6 months or wouldn't you be
happier to be able to simply input each program once and not have to worry
about the hard-coding individual pages?

I'm *already* doing it that. I *have* a database. I *use* a database.
Look like we achieved your goals a couple of years ago. Can we all go
home now?

Susan

 

[JanC]

That's a fair distinction, except for the alt.comp.freeware copyright.
Alt.comp.freeware can't enter into any legally binding contract and
would have no legal claim to such ownership.

It is legal in Belgium (and most EU countries AFAIK).
If there is no official registered organisation or company every individual
has all the related rights & duties(!).

[...]

Also, there are many participants in this group from various sovereign
nations; which court has jurisdiction?

Right, see above...

 

[Genna Reeney]

That page has a link that has to be updated at least once a year,
right...? There is an easy solution for this: make the link fixed.

Again, once the site changes to a database system, all of this would become
moot.

Now the link is:
<http://pricelessware.org/2004/about2004PL.htm>

Change that to:
<http://pricelessware.org/current/>

If I understand correctly, Susan could be allowed to access this
directory and thus to change a redirect placed there that points to
the "current" PL.

I am not fond of many redirects, but it's certainly an option for now.
We could also make that index page a simple redirect to the current PL, thus
skipping the need for 2 redirects.

 

[Ben Cooper]

The only issue which I brought to the group was the one regarding the
posting of a rather scathing review of a program that resulted in
mail-bombs, threats and letters to my server provider. I had not seen
the page before, was stunned to find it on the PL site and I asked
you to remove it. You refused and said that I should take it up with
the group. I did so and the consensus was that the page should stay.
That was the end of it.

I do recall your posting that you considered the Pricelessware CD to be
a "slipping into the commercialization of the Pricelessware List."
Which, of course, was never true.

 

[Genna Reeney]

I'm *already* doing it that. I *have* a database. I *use* a database.
Look like we achieved your goals a couple of years ago. Can we all go
home now?

Susan -

Once again, this is not an attack against you. I don't see why you need to
be so hostile towards me.

You posted earlier that you only know HTML, but you are now saying that you
use a database. So clearly, your objection is not that we would be using a
database program at all.

The point of moving to a database is not only to simplify matters for the
maintainer of the list, but also to make the list more user-friendly for the
PL visitors. Can your database be transfered to the server? Will it manage
searches? If that's an option, we should certainly look into it, as it would
save tremendous time and effort.

 

[Genna Reeney]

I do recall your posting that you considered the Pricelessware CD to
be a "slipping into the commercialization of the Pricelessware List."
Which, of course, was never true.

Ben -

I expressed my opinion in ONE post about an acf project and didn't pursue it
any further. In it, I suggested that authors should be contacted
individually for releases and I did make the comment about slipping into
commercialization.

I don't consider that "disagreeing emphatically with Susan."

A far cry from what has transpired in the last 48 hours.

 

[Susan Bugher]

An expose. Theft and deception at Huntersoft. IIRC I'm the only one
who's been threatened or mail-bombed (the mail-bombing was after your
objection).

I do recall your posting that you considered the Pricelessware CD to be
a "slipping into the commercialization of the Pricelessware List."
Which, of course, was never true.

Susan

 

[Ben Cooper]

Right, so what's the problem now?

- something less tied to 1 particular program is needed?
- more people should be able to help?
- dynamic searching & sorting wanted?
- ... ?

I like what Susan's done with the site, so I guess the question comes
back to "does it truly need to be changed"?
Apparently, it's been years since a change in format was proposed and
nothing was done in the meantime. During that time, Susan has been
maintaining the site and making it better.
If something is working and improving, why throw it all out?

Hmph... I have to say, right or wrong, I'm with Susan on this one. She's
the one who has spent the most time with it, recently. Genna hasn't been
active here for a long time.
In fact, it's interesting to see how her return has brought some of the
"old timers" back into activity here. Soon, we'll be seeing, Boomer,
Blinky and DC weighing in.

 

[Ceg]

Right...down to name calling...not even a good troll there. Maybe you're
just too close to the forest to see the trees? I never was one to fit into
the groups of boot-lickers. I think the biggest problem is that some people
get lulled into a position of being comfortable with being fed a line of
crap and don't like hearing the way things really are. Like walking in on a
cult.

 

[Ceg]

"Your" as in "general" as in "NOT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR". Get it?

 

[Ceg]

Any professional sysadmin knows this sort of things happens all the time.
Probably just some "script kiddies" or maybe "warez people" searching for a
"dump". Make your server secure (it seems like you did) and there is no
real problem for you.

As I stated, some were script kiddies playing the numbers. I'm sure you'll
know what that means. I also stated that out of all the various folders I
had available to anonymous login the only ones that were directly pinpointed
were folders containing the a.c.f. CD programs. Attempts were made to
upload programs, replace programs and delete entire folder trees. None of
these attempts were successful in their intended outcome.

It wasn't the script kiddies that drew my attention, it was the DIRECT
attacks at folders containing a.c.f. files. NO OTHER FOLDERS were attacked.
There were various font folders, graphics, programming tools, etc. Nothing
but the a.c.f. program folders got hit with the hack attempts. This was
approximately 2/3's of the 20+ IP's I had ended up blocking. There is no
way you can look at those numbers and say that's random selection.

 

[Genna Reeney]

An expose. Theft and deception at Huntersoft. IIRC I'm the only one
who's been threatened or mail-bombed (the mail-bombing was after your
objection).

Susan -

Given that the reason I first contacted you was because I was personally
threatened, this is NOT an accurate representation of the facts.

 

[Susan Bugher]

I certainly have never posted that you be removed from participating in the
PL process, which is essentially what you were suggesting be done about me,
by requesting that the list be moved to a different site.

Strange conclusion. I'm participating in the Pricelessware process. The
list is not on *my* site.

Susan

 

[JanC]

You posted earlier that you only know HTML, but you are now saying
that you use a database. So clearly, your objection is not that we
would be using a database program at all.

The point of moving to a database is not only to simplify matters for
the maintainer of the list, but also to make the list more
user-friendly for the PL visitors. Can your database be transfered to
the server? Will it manage searches? If that's an option, we should
certainly look into it, as it would save tremendous time and effort.

The database contents can be transfered, the HTML-creation macros she now
uses can't.

 

[Susan Bugher]

Susan -

Once again, this is not an attack against you. I don't see why you need to
be so hostile towards me.

I'm not hostile - ATM I am exasperated!

You posted earlier that you only know HTML, but you are now saying that you
use a database. So clearly, your objection is not that we would be using a
database program at all.

From: Susan Bugher
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:13:47 -0500
To: Genna Reeney

After the Pricelessware pages are done (and I recover), I could do a
page or 2 with the latest info we have on both the nominated programs
and the 2002 Priceless list. I have all those programs in the database.

<q>

I would have been happy to *refresh* your memory if you had asked me how
I prepare the web pages now.

The point of moving to a database is not only to simplify matters for the
maintainer of the list, but also to make the list more user-friendly for the
PL visitors. Can your database be transfered to the server? Will it manage
searches? If that's an option, we should certainly look into it, as it would
save tremendous time and effort.

Adding more Google search links is on my todo list (following a recent
thread in the newsgroup).

Susan