C
Chrissy Cruiser
I am not!
I agree. Anyone who can't remember more than one letter for a name.....
LOL
I agree. Anyone who can't remember more than one letter for a name.....
LOL
J
jo
Henk said:
John is hardly the first to believe usenet to be a write only medium.
G
Garrett
Henk de Jong wrote:
[snip]
Past experience has probably told him that he will get flamed for this
post and typically if he replies, it only makes matters worse. So I
can understand his desire not to reply.
[snip]
I'm probably more extreme in my opinion of what Freeware is, or should
be that is.
Remember now, I'm the one who years ago.... Wait! better not bring that
up... Heheheheee
Anyway, I agree on many points he noted. And he is right, too many
programs are trying to be passed off as Freeware when they are not.
It's down right dishonest.
Well, I'd better leave it at that before I open pandora's box here.
-Garrett
[snip]
Past experience has probably told him that he will get flamed for this
post and typically if he replies, it only makes matters worse. So I
can understand his desire not to reply.
[snip]
I'm probably more extreme in my opinion of what Freeware is, or should
be that is.
Remember now, I'm the one who years ago.... Wait! better not bring that
up... Heheheheee
Anyway, I agree on many points he noted. And he is right, too many
programs are trying to be passed off as Freeware when they are not.
It's down right dishonest.
Well, I'd better leave it at that before I open pandora's box here.
-Garrett
C
Cory Panshin
Mark said:
I'm also not a purist about the word "freeware." If I don't have to pay
for it, it does what I need, and it doesn't bug me with ads, that's free
enough for me. However, I would like to have access to better
information before I go to the trouble of investing the time in
configuring a program, learning how to use it, and starting to enter my
data.
In particular, I'd like to see clearer distinctions drawn between
liteware, mild crippleware, and severe crippleware. In my own mind,
something is liteware when it's fully usable and the missing features
are things that only a business or a professional user would care about.
It's clearly crippleware when it's so restricted that it's effectively
useless except as a demo (eg, can only create 15 records, can't create
new categories, etc.)
But there's a wide grey area in between. Things like:
- Doesn't allow printing.
- Limited search function.
- Can't create multiple data files.
- Limited customization of options or display.
I've tried out programs of this intermediate sort fairly often.
Sometimes I find them completely adequate to my needs and don't even
notice that anything's missing. Sometimes I notice a little but not to
the point where it really gets in my way. (Especially if I feel I'm
essentially getting a free ride on what is otherwise professional-level
software.) And at other times, the missing features are so intrusive
that I find I can't use the program for what I really want to do with it.
Granted, a lot of this is subjective. For example, the free version of
InfoAngel is too limited to be adequate as a general-purpose organizer.
But I use it solely for home maintenance records -- past purchases and
repairs, reminders of periodic maintenance, addresses of my plumber and
electrician, and links to how-to files I've downloaded -- and I find
that in this one specialized area it does exactly what I want.
Especially as genuine free software gets harder to find, I could really
use a guide to programs in this lite-to-mildly-crippled range -- one
that would tell me what I could and couldn't expect of them and possibly
how to work around some of the limitations.
C
chuck
Hello All,
I'm relatively new to this newsgroup (my first post, though I've been
lurking)). But, I'm not new to freeware. I've benefited from the work done
by members of this group via the pricelessware site(s). Thank you, all, for
your part(s) in those efforts.
<Opinions on>
I agree that there is little more annoying than following a link to a
"freeware download site" only to discover that is some kind of crap-ware. I
don't know exactly who John is, but he's oviously a voice of some authority
here. I agree with most of what he says, though I may dissagree on some of
the subtler distinctions. Postcard-ware, care-ware, donation-ware, is
freeware, I believe (as long as it's totally voluntary and relatively nag
free) .
Even nag free has shades of meaning To me, a mention of and a link to a
donation site is fine in an unobtrusive place, such as a help/about dialog
window, but force me to click through to such a site in order to exit the
program (or such like) and you've crossed the line!
Crippleware is also a relative term. As an example of freeware which is
crippled yet very useful, take Roboform. This little gem saved me from the
jaws of the Gator. The freeware version is close to fully functional,
limited to 3 credit cards per ID (you can use Multiple IDs as a workaround)
and limited to 30 sites stored. This was made clear from the beginning and
seemed quite reasonable. After using it a while and bumping into the
"minor" limitations occasionally, I decided the program was usefull enough
to pay to upgrade to the pro version. My wife on the other hand didn't surf
as widely as me, so, she would have been very happy with only the
"crippleware" version. As it turned out there was a (either very cheap or
free) way to get the license on a second machine, so we're both using now!
This to me epitimzes a frewware/commercial coexistance that should still be
considered "freeware".
A copule of open questions:
What if the author charges for acess to the site (to defray expenses - or
for other reasons) but does not charge for the freeware itself. Does that,
under the cannonical definition of freeware, make the software
"not-freeware"? If it does, does that mean that all the software I've
downloaded from Snapfile Pro (nee "my web attack ") is not freeware???
What about "sillyware", as found on Silly Sot Software's site. Here, Ian
requires that you send him something funny, (real world object or
email(joke or funny picture)) to be authorized to freely use his Iconoid
program. Surely this is not disqualified as "freeware"?? Similarly for
"Charityware"!?
I agree with whoever said that we need to gauge the authors "Moral
intent"...
<Opinions off>
Best Regards,
Chuck Brotman
I'm relatively new to this newsgroup (my first post, though I've been
lurking)). But, I'm not new to freeware. I've benefited from the work done
by members of this group via the pricelessware site(s). Thank you, all, for
your part(s) in those efforts.
<Opinions on>
I agree that there is little more annoying than following a link to a
"freeware download site" only to discover that is some kind of crap-ware. I
don't know exactly who John is, but he's oviously a voice of some authority
here. I agree with most of what he says, though I may dissagree on some of
the subtler distinctions. Postcard-ware, care-ware, donation-ware, is
freeware, I believe (as long as it's totally voluntary and relatively nag
free) .
Even nag free has shades of meaning To me, a mention of and a link to a
donation site is fine in an unobtrusive place, such as a help/about dialog
window, but force me to click through to such a site in order to exit the
program (or such like) and you've crossed the line!
Crippleware is also a relative term. As an example of freeware which is
crippled yet very useful, take Roboform. This little gem saved me from the
jaws of the Gator. The freeware version is close to fully functional,
limited to 3 credit cards per ID (you can use Multiple IDs as a workaround)
and limited to 30 sites stored. This was made clear from the beginning and
seemed quite reasonable. After using it a while and bumping into the
"minor" limitations occasionally, I decided the program was usefull enough
to pay to upgrade to the pro version. My wife on the other hand didn't surf
as widely as me, so, she would have been very happy with only the
"crippleware" version. As it turned out there was a (either very cheap or
free) way to get the license on a second machine, so we're both using now!
This to me epitimzes a frewware/commercial coexistance that should still be
considered "freeware".
A copule of open questions:
What if the author charges for acess to the site (to defray expenses - or
for other reasons) but does not charge for the freeware itself. Does that,
under the cannonical definition of freeware, make the software
"not-freeware"? If it does, does that mean that all the software I've
downloaded from Snapfile Pro (nee "my web attack ") is not freeware???
What about "sillyware", as found on Silly Sot Software's site. Here, Ian
requires that you send him something funny, (real world object or
email(joke or funny picture)) to be authorized to freely use his Iconoid
program. Surely this is not disqualified as "freeware"?? Similarly for
"Charityware"!?
I agree with whoever said that we need to gauge the authors "Moral
intent"...
<Opinions off>
Best Regards,
Chuck Brotman
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=
That description unfortunately includes such things as warez. Most of
the attempts here over the years to come up with alternate, relatively
simple notions of freeware have run into that problem.
Yeah, that helps a lot. When something's suggested here that isn't
freeware in the "purist" sense, the more that's posted about its "wares
type", the better. The descriptions on the PL pages do a pretty good
job of informing, but there are a lot of programs promoted here that
aren't listed there.
A
Anonymous Sender
If you exceed your bandwidth/download/hours limit for the month when downloading a freeware
program, is it then no longer freeware because your ISP charges you for the excess?
program, is it then no longer freeware because your ISP charges you for the excess?
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=
If the app is only available from pay sites, then it's certainly not
freeware. I don't know about Snapfile Pro, but I suspect many of the
apps there are also freely available elsewhere.
If the silliness or the donation to charity is requested rather than
required by the author, I'd call it freeware. (I believe I differ from
John on that point.) If it's required, then I wouldn't. Either way,
those things are fine to recommend here, but if there's a requirement
it should be noted.
R
Roger Hunt
To take that a stage further :
Is it no longer freeware because you have to pay for an ISP?
And what about freeware included on magazine CD's, a payment having been
made for the mag?
To me, the notion of "not freeware" does imply a reward - monetary,
silly, or kind thought - requested or required by, and going to, the
author of the stuff rather than the courier.
B
Barney
Anonymous Sender wrote:
/In article <[email protected]>
//
/
/If you exceed your bandwidth/download/hours limit for the month when
/downloading a freeware program, is it then no longer freeware because
/your ISP charges you for the excess?
\
In perspective you did pay $$ for the computer & the rent or mortgage
for it to be accomodated but this has little bearing on the topic on
hand.
Freeware can be listed on a site that requires money to use. That
dosen't make the programs not freeware anyless then a CD with freeware
on it. If that is the only way to receive the program then I agree with
a previous poster that then it's not freeware. Some programers offer to
put their programs on a CD but the costs involved are required to be
covered. The convenience of the offer is what costs you.
/In article <[email protected]>
//
/
/If you exceed your bandwidth/download/hours limit for the month when
/downloading a freeware program, is it then no longer freeware because
/your ISP charges you for the excess?
\
In perspective you did pay $$ for the computer & the rent or mortgage
for it to be accomodated but this has little bearing on the topic on
hand.
Freeware can be listed on a site that requires money to use. That
dosen't make the programs not freeware anyless then a CD with freeware
on it. If that is the only way to receive the program then I agree with
a previous poster that then it's not freeware. Some programers offer to
put their programs on a CD but the costs involved are required to be
covered. The convenience of the offer is what costs you.
G
Garrett
chuck wrote:
[snip]
Hi Chuck,
There is no authority, in charge, official representative, governing
group or anything else of this newsgroup. It's an unmoderated group.
John is just another user who's been around awhile, like many others
here.
Best regards,
-Garrett
[snip]
Hi Chuck,
There is no authority, in charge, official representative, governing
group or anything else of this newsgroup. It's an unmoderated group.
John is just another user who's been around awhile, like many others
here.
Best regards,
-Garrett
C
chuck
To clarify: the Sillyware requirement is really more a request, but I sent
Ian some Jokes, anyway!
My specific example was a bit contrived, I'll admit. Snapfiles has a free
version (non-"pro"). But I think the principle holds, just the same.
However, the PC mag utilities are a bit dicier. I possesed many of them
prior to the site going subscription. Ti me, those are definitely
"freeware". I paid the 1 yr sybscription fee to access the site. On the
ones I've downloaded since then I could go either way... But I do seee
John's point, that if the *only* way toi get them is to pay money (even if
just for site access) it is hard to justify the freeeware monicker. I
suppose there's little point in trying to "split hairs". (especially since
John appears to be the site diety and therefore, by definition, has the
last word. Still, I think it's been a worthwhile topic
To clarify: the Sillyware "requirement" is really more a request, but I
sent Ian some Jokes, anyway!
Chuck
Ian some Jokes, anyway!
»Q« said:
My specific example was a bit contrived, I'll admit. Snapfiles has a free
version (non-"pro"). But I think the principle holds, just the same.
However, the PC mag utilities are a bit dicier. I possesed many of them
prior to the site going subscription. Ti me, those are definitely
"freeware". I paid the 1 yr sybscription fee to access the site. On the
ones I've downloaded since then I could go either way... But I do seee
John's point, that if the *only* way toi get them is to pay money (even if
just for site access) it is hard to justify the freeeware monicker. I
suppose there's little point in trying to "split hairs". (especially since
John appears to be the site diety and therefore, by definition, has the
last word.
Still, I think it's been a worthwhile topicTo clarify: the Sillyware "requirement" is really more a request, but I
sent Ian some Jokes, anyway!
Chuck
V
Veign
Thats how I do it....I never require anything for use, just nice to have
someone send a postcard showing they appreciate the applications that I
write...
someone send a postcard showing they appreciate the applications that I
write...
C
Chaos Master
Chaos happened and Veign said:
I usee some postcardware software, that is considered freeware.
Sending a postcard is entirely optional.
[]s
I usee some postcardware software, that is considered freeware.
Sending a postcard is entirely optional.
[]s
M
Mister Charlie
All I know is 'here we go again'. I only wonder what prompted thisGarrett said:
latest catalyst blast?
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=
(especially since John appears to be the site diety and therefore,
by definition, has the last word.
I see the smiley, but this tag is exactly what some who disagree with
him repeatedly and erroneously try to hang on him. He's not in charge
of the group and doesn't pretend to be. You'll notice he tagged the
subject of his post as his opinion, not law.
Yeah.
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=
It was a thread about Quicken and MS Money this time.
V
Vic Dura
Good point.
D
dszady
Barney said:
I believe deliverence is not a consideration.
IOW, because the homogeny of the planet (Earth?) and the differences thereof
free is not paying for the software and not how it is delivered.
To put it in other words that other peoples - yes, J.C. a lot of people live
outside of the US, can understand. If the Mardo hear of a freeware program
(e.g.)Photofilter who want to use it and can get it via CD in an Googalong
Magazine that ONE person has bought and distributes it to his computer
owning not-having-internet friends it's freeware. How the hell else are
they going to get it? Will everyone is going down to the "Station" and
download the "freeware" or buy the ONE magazine that has something
(Photofiltre) that eveyone in the village can use. One person in a village
might have a Internet connection.
If the Inuit have one person on an ISP and has to charge eveyone else for a
copy, it isn't freeware? Is the PL CD OT? Bullshit!
Let's be a global community. Instead of a clique, let's think outside the
box
Don't you dare think that you are an army of one. You are NOT the voice of
autority. You are either the voice of reason or a person who's time has
passed me by.
I am not asking you, that doesn't work, I challenge you to think - no
comprehend - the possibilities and to re-think the inflexibilities of your
definitions of freeware.
BTW. Due to disruptions beyond the control of the readership as a whole we
were going to discuss "What is the definition of Freeware?" this year. Now
what? Next year? After the PL vote?
Now is a good time since John Corliss brought this up. Or do we pass this on
to next year and the next or whatever?
We had a vote last year on what is relevent to discuss. Should I research
this and then we debate it? It wasn't a debate last year, it was a vote.
P.S. It is good that JC doesn't respond to these posts. I don't think anyone
could hear him for he is the ghost of "freeware past".
I will post this in a separate thread so John F. can understand it.
D
dszady
Veign said:
Thank you and I hope the group and your users thank you.