Shrink Wrap my EULA ?

M

Mike Brannigan [MSFT]

Kelly said:
Hi Mike,

Great to see you here. :blush:)

I was going to stay off this topic as no good ever comes of it - as you can
see all the usual suspects have piled on already :-(

Anyway just thought I swing by out of the x64 group for a quick parse
through :)

--

Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups
 
K

kurttrail

Mike said:
Woody,

The retail box printing is germane in this discussion.
Just read the End User License Agreement.
It is available on the link on Start ... Run ... winver.
It clearly states your rights to use the software and yes it may only
be installed on one PC and may not actually be moved at a later date
to another PC (even if the first one is dead - this is a restriction
of the OEM license)

I believe the point is that what is written on the retail box, isn't
written on the OEM Copy. So the retail box printing is germane, but not
in the way you think.

And what is actually printed on OEM copies, doesn't reflect what were
the conditions at the time of purchase. The OEM copy wasn't sold with a
new computer, but with computer components. And it is MS's policy that
this was a legal sale of the OEM copy.

So MS's words on its OEM Packaging doen't give consumers any advanced
warning, about MS's One computer term, and warning there is, is bogus.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
R

Raymond J. Johnson Jr.

| | > no , this MS certified reseller , did not . since when have you ever
| > seen
| > any do so ?
| >
| > and since when should I have to purchase a product , get it home ,
| > install
| > it then find out there are limitations to how I can use it ?
| >
| > it says NOWHERE on the outside that I am limited in my use of it
| > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
| >
| >
| > wanna see ?
| >
| >
|
|
| The seller doesn't need to know all what they buyer know or what they
| don't know. They have to assume that you know what you are buying. If
| you go to the tire dealer and say you need Brand X with certain
| dimensions then that is the tire they sell regardless that you really
| didn't know that particular tire would not fit on your car. It's not up
| to them to educate you on the product that YOU chose to purchase from
| them. They sell. It's not their job to educate, too.
|
| You have the right to refuse the EULA. Since the EULA is not physically
| presented beforehand (by letting you read it on the side of the box or
| on a separate sheet included with the product then contract law still
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ....
 
R

Raymond J. Johnson Jr.

| | > vanguard , sorry , tommorrow i'll read your novel . and maybe even
| > reply to
| > it .
| >
| > i purchased a product and NOWHERE on the cover does it say that its
| > just a
| > licence to use it on ONE pc .
| >
| > I purchased a toaster the other day and when i plugged it in it didn't
| > tell
| > me that i could only toast wheat bread .
| >
| >
|
|
| When you buy a car, where on its cover (i.e., its body) is the warranty
| printed? You have to look "inside".
|

Lame, very lame. I can examine any *warranty* before purchasing any retail
product in the US. What do warranties have to do with shrinkwrap
*licenses*? Do you think it would be OK for a dealer to sell you a car with
a shrinkwrapped package of documents that you couldn't open before the
purchase was complete, but to buy the car you had to agree be bound by the
limitations expressed in the (unseen) documents? To put it more simply,
would you agree to "sign" a contract without be given the opportunity to
read it first?
 
K

kurttrail

Vanguard said:
Yeah, screw the fact that you actually agreed to a contract with the
software author.

MS is a corporation that hires software authors. MS is not the author.
And as with all contracts, terms that the software copyright owner is
unwilling to legally enforce are moot.
Just because software is an easily copy-able item
doesn't change the fact that it IS property that is covered by the
conditions of sale.

Wrong again. The CD is property, the software is a copyrighted work.
Two separate and distinct things.

And that's the reason Copyrighted material are not covered under
property law, but by Copyright law.
Yeah, of course, anything that is easy to do
should be allowed, uh huh.

Please provide links to information where copyright law actually
protects the *user* of the copyrighted material. Maybe you saw
something at http://www.copyright.gov/ that I missed regarding the
presumed "rights" of users of copyrighted materials (where the user(s)
is NOT the copyrighted item of that user). I did find mention of
"fair use" at
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/index.html.
So how does fair use of copyrighted material have anything to do with
a separate contract to which you agree regarding your use of a
product or service?

Tell me how a post-sale shrink wrap license that the copyright owner
avails itself of all the protections of Copyright Law, can rewrite the
limitations placed on copyright ownership in copyright law!
As defined, fair use grants you the right to
comment or criticize on a copyrighted item. Yeah, so you've done
that here without cause for legal retribution by the copyright
holder. Fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a
LIMITED and "transformative" purpose such as to comment upon,
criticize or parody a copyrighted work. Well, that doesn't apply to
making a full copy of a software product, either. So which part of
"fair use" lets users pirate software?

That page is about public and/or commercial "fair use"

Congress has not explicitly said what the private non-commerial uses of
what "fair use" is.

Though the Supreme Court has in the betamax case:

"The protection given to copyrights is wholly statutory, and, in a case
like this, in which Congress has not plainly marked the course to be
followed by the judiciary, this Court must be circumspect in construing
the scope of rights created by a statute that never contemplated such a
calculus of interests. Any individual may reproduce a copyrighted work
for a "fair use"; the copyright owner does not possess the exclusive
right to such a use." - http://laws.findlaw.com/us/464/417.html

"Unfortunately, if the copyright owner disagrees with your fair use
interpretation, the dispute will have to be resolved by courts or
arbitration." -
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/index.html

So my interpretation stands until I am sued and lose.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
K

kurttrail

DJ said:
Actually, if you read the link provided in Vanguard's post, you'll see
that Microsoft DOES refund shipping.

I stand corrected, but from that page it would seem that they don't
mention whether or not they take returns of OEM software that was sold
with a computer component.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
L

Leythos

I believe the point is that what is written on the retail box, isn't
written on the OEM Copy.

My OEM and Volume License copies clearly state on the CD that "All use
subject to ........." and then one license form or another.
 
K

kurttrail

Leythos said:
My OEM and Volume License copies clearly state on the CD that "All use
subject to ........." and then one license form or another.

And you can read that only after you open the package.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
M

Mike Brannigan [MSFT]

Yes it was a typo - I meant that the retail box is NOT germane as the EULA
is displayed during install and you can decline it then.

--

Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups
 
K

kurttrail

Mike said:
Yes it was a typo - I meant that the retail box is NOT germane as the
EULA is displayed during install and you can decline it then.


LOL! Does MS accept returns of open OEM CDs if the End User that buys
the OEM CD doesn't accept the terms of the EULA?

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
K

kurttrail

Leythos said:
Actually, I can read it online at the MS site too -

LOL! I didn't know it was a requirement to go to MS's web site, in
order to purchase their products. Is that in the EULA to? Hiding
inside the packing perhaps?
nothing hiding but
trolls.

Then why aren't you in hiding, as all you are is a MicroTroll.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
W

Woody

hi mike , sorry , but personally i find imposing terms and restrictions
AFTER you have made the sale of your product about as deceptive as you could
possibly be .

did i click the i agree button ? of course i did . how else could i use the
product i had just purchased in good faith and personally i consider that so
called contract invalid since the terms of it were not presented until after
the sale .

the only crime i see here is microsoft's blatently deceptive marketing
practices . so until you prove in a court of law just once that the terms of
your shrinkwrapped eula are an enforseable contract , have a nice day ;-)
 
V

Vanguard

kurttrail said:
MS is a corporation that hires software authors. MS is not the
author. And as with all contracts, terms that the software copyright
owner is unwilling to legally enforce are moot.

So what if Microsoft hires out? They hired someone else to produce
works that are contracted to be and remain the intellectual property of
Microsoft. Symantec is a software publisher and everything it owns was
bought from someone else. Transferring the copyright is one way to get
it. Eidos distributes games, owns those games, contracts out to have
others code the game, like Ion Storm, but the game or anything created
in part for it still belong to Eidos. Just because someone other than
Microsoft wrote the code doesn't change the fact that Microsoft is the
current owner of the copyright of the work or any part thereof in
progress or so far produced. The programmer working for a software
developer doesn't own the copyright to his output simply because he
happened to be the one that wrote the code. It still belongs to his
employer. A search at copyright.gov on "Windows XP Professional" turns
up Microsoft Corporation as the entity that owns the copyright. Them
perhaps contracting other programmers to do the work didn't alter the
fact that they still own the copyright.

Yes, true, any rights the copyright owner decides not to exercise are
moot. However, not acting to enforce those rights can be and has been
construed as relinquishment of those rights and the owner may be hard
pressed to show that not enforcing their rights before should be ignored
when they decide to exercise them later. Microsoft isn't going to
bother prosecuting a single home user that pirates their software onto
multiple home computers. That wouldn't be cost effective in the short
term (to recoup their perceived loss) or long term (to prevent continued
piracy by that consumer). But just try to pirate 5,000 copies of one
license of Windows on your corporate desktops and then try explaining
that you thought you had "fair use" when the FBI confiscates your
equipment and effectively shuts down your business. Not charging
someone and pursuing conviction of the offender does change the fact
that the offender committed the crime. Rape is still a crime regardless
that the victim doesn't press charges.
Wrong again. The CD is property, the software is a copyrighted work.
Two separate and distinct things.

And that's the reason Copyrighted material are not covered under
property law, but by Copyright law.

Sorry for not being so very specific. *Intellectual* property that has
commercial value includes copyrighted works.

If "fair use" (http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html) had a decent
definition regarding software then software producers wouldn't even need
to include the contract (EULA). Their butts would already be covered if
the law was so very specific as to delineate all the protections
afforded to them. Since that is not the case, the license (contract)
enlarges or restricts (usually the later) what is considered "fair use".
Contracts exist because it becomes quite evident that despite the huge
volumes spent on writing the laws that those laws won't cover every
conceivable transaction between individuals or entities.

Statements in copyright law, like
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107, which says, "In
determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a
fair use the factors to be considered shall include: (4) the effect of
the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."
It seems that "fair use" is defined by a compendium of cases rather than
a specifically outlined definition in copyright law, so "fair use" is
vague and why there exist those court cases trying to define it. I
certainly couldn't find a decent definition at copyright.gov or even at
findlaw.com. One description is at
http://www.rosenlaw.com/html/GL13.pdf. "With proprietary software, be
careful to have a valid fair use argument if you do anything not
permitted by the license." I doubt convenience, being economically
strapped for cash, or being lazy are adequate arguments.

I do agree that it seems ass backward to pay for a product before you
are notified of the terms of the sale and then have to choose to reject
the terms to get your money back. That's why I argued with our legal
department to get our packaging changed to show the one-side page with
the license through the shrink-wrap on the backside of the box.
However, we don't sell to end users or consumers. Businesses are used
to reading contracts. Putting the license on the package so it could be
viewed by consumers before they purchase would still not get them to
read it. They don't even bother to read the license when it is pushed
into their face during installation. Also, you still don't know what
are the terms of the warranty for that toaster you bought before you
paid for it, so not knowing all the conditions of the sale beforehand is
not a requirement for the transaction and the transfer of monies itself
does not finalize the transaction.

When you buy non-software goods at the retail store and decide they are
defective, even if the "defect" is just the wrong color, YOU still have
to bother to return to the store. They don't pick it up for you, and if
you have to ship it back to you then they often don't foot the bill for
shipping costs, either. So how is that different than getting software
at home, reading the contract, disagreeing with it, and then returning
it to the software maker? You got it home, you found it wasn't what you
thought you bought, so you then return it. How is it more unreasonable
to require customers to return tangible items, like a toaster, on their
own time and at their own expense for a product that doesn't meet their
expectations, like color, size, fit, or whatever, than of requiring
customers to return software that doesn't meet their expectations, like
the terms of the license?

All this hoopla when in fact Microsoft does accept returns. If you
don't agree to their license terms, return it!
 
M

Mike Brannigan [MSFT]

Woody said:
hi mike , sorry , but personally i find imposing terms and restrictions
AFTER you have made the sale of your product about as deceptive as you
could
possibly be .

did i click the i agree button ? of course i did . how else could i use
the
product i had just purchased in good faith and personally i consider that
so
called contract invalid since the terms of it were not presented until
after
the sale .

If your concern is not being able to read the EULA prior to purchase we also
publish it at
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/eula.mspx
and
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/eula.mspx

Yes this is the retail version but the general licensing terms are the
same - one copy one machine etc.

As regards you pressing I agree to the EULA there is no of course about it.
If you did not agree to the EULA terms then you should not have pressed that
button and your installation of software you did not agree to be bound by
the End User Licensing of will be cancelled.

If you had read the OEM Windows XP EULA you would have seen the following

YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS
EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE
USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO
THE TERMS OF THIS EULA, YOU MAY NOT USE OR
COPY THE SOFTWARE, AND YOU SHOULD PROMPTLY
CONTACT MANUFACTURER FOR INSTRUCTIONS ON
RETURN OF THE UNUSED PRODUCT(S) FOR A
REFUND IN ACCORDANCE WITH MANUFACTURER'S
RETURN POLICIES.

So if you do not agree with the EULA then following the instructions above
should lead to a return of the software you cannot agree with the licensing
terms of.

--

Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups
 
K

kurttrail

Vanguard said:
So what if Microsoft hires out?

It mean I have a contract with the copyright owner, not the software
owners
They hired someone else to produce
works that are contracted to be and remain the intellectual property
of Microsoft. Symantec is a software publisher and everything it
owns was bought from someone else. Transferring the copyright is one
way to get it. Eidos distributes games, owns those games, contracts
out to have others code the game, like Ion Storm, but the game or
anything created in part for it still belong to Eidos. Just because
someone other than Microsoft wrote the code doesn't change the fact
that Microsoft is the current owner of the copyright of the work or
any part thereof in progress or so far produced. The programmer
working for a software developer doesn't own the copyright to his
output simply because he happened to be the one that wrote the code.
It still belongs to his employer. A search at copyright.gov on
"Windows XP Professional" turns up Microsoft Corporation as the
entity that owns the copyright. Them perhaps contracting other
programmers to do the work didn't alter the fact that they still own
the copyright.
Yes, true, any rights the copyright owner decides not to exercise are
moot. However, not acting to enforce those rights can be and has been
construed as relinquishment of those rights and the owner may be hard
pressed to show that not enforcing their rights before should be
ignored when they decide to exercise them later.

I am missing something
Microsoft isn't
going to bother prosecuting a single home user that pirates their
software onto multiple home computers.

No home user has ever been charged with, let alone convicted of Piracy,
for installing the same software on more than one computer, and there is
no law that makes it piracy, so stop the BS! It ain't piracy.
That wouldn't be cost
effective in the short term (to recoup their perceived loss) or long
term (to prevent continued piracy by that consumer).

Again, a lame excuse.
But just try to
pirate 5,000 copies of one license of Windows on your corporate
desktops and then try explaining that you thought you had "fair use"
when the FBI confiscates your equipment and effectively shuts down
your business.

More BS. No one is trying to pirate 5,000 and claiming a fair use.
Not charging someone and pursuing conviction of the
offender does change the fact that the offender committed the crime.
Rape is still a crime regardless that the victim doesn't press
charges.

Boy are you deluded! Equating a home user installing software on more
than one computer as a criminal, and a rapist.

FUD! NOTHING BUT FUD!
Sorry for not being so very specific. *Intellectual* property that
has commercial value includes copyrighted works.

If "fair use" (http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html) had a decent
definition regarding software then software producers wouldn't even
need to include the contract (EULA). Their butts would already be
covered if the law was so very specific as to delineate all the
protections afforded to them. Since that is not the case, the
license (contract) enlarges or restricts (usually the later) what is
considered "fair use". Contracts exist because it becomes quite
evident that despite the huge volumes spent on writing the laws that
those laws won't cover every conceivable transaction between
individuals or entities.
Statements in copyright law, like
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107, which says, "In
determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a
fair use the factors to be considered shall include: (4) the effect of
the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted
work." It seems that "fair use" is defined by a compendium of cases
rather than a specifically outlined definition in copyright law, so
"fair use" is vague and why there exist those court cases trying to
define it. I certainly couldn't find a decent definition at
copyright.gov or even at findlaw.com. One description is at
http://www.rosenlaw.com/html/GL13.pdf. "With proprietary software, be
careful to have a valid fair use argument if you do anything not
permitted by the license." I doubt convenience, being economically
strapped for cash, or being lazy are adequate arguments.

For my private non-commercial use. Plain and simple.

"The limited scope of the copyright holder's statutory monopoly, like
the limited copyright duration required by the Constitution, reflects a
balance of competing claims upon the public interest: Creative work is
to be encouraged and rewarded, but private motivation must ultimately
serve the cause of promoting broad public availability of literature,
music, and the other arts. The immediate effect of our copyright law is
to secure a fair return for an 'author's' creative labor. But the
ultimate aim is, by this incentive, to stimulate artistic creativity for
the general public good. 'The sole interest of the United States and
the primary object in conferring the monopoly,' this Court has said,
'lie in the general benefits derived by the public from the labors of
authors' . . . . When technological change has rendered its literal
terms ambiguous, the Copyright Act must be construed in light of this
basic purpose." - http://laws.findlaw.com/us/422/151.html

All that a copyright owner should expect is a "fair return." And it has
been paid once by individuals for private non-commercial use. That is a
"fair return."
I do agree that it seems ass backward to pay for a product before you
are notified of the terms of the sale and then have to choose to
reject the terms to get your money back. That's why I argued with
our legal department to get our packaging changed to show the
one-side page with the license through the shrink-wrap on the
backside of the box. However, we don't sell to end users or
consumers. Businesses are used to reading contracts. Putting the
license on the package so it could be viewed by consumers before they
purchase would still not get them to read it. They don't even bother
to read the license when it is pushed into their face during
installation. Also, you still don't know what are the terms of the
warranty for that toaster you bought before you paid for it, so not
knowing all the conditions of the sale beforehand is not a
requirement for the transaction and the transfer of monies itself
does not finalize the transaction.

And MS's EULA is a perfectly legal commercial use contract.
When you buy non-software goods at the retail store and decide they
are defective, even if the "defect" is just the wrong color, YOU
still have to bother to return to the store. They don't pick it up
for you, and if you have to ship it back to you then they often don't
foot the bill for shipping costs, either. So how is that different
than getting software at home, reading the contract, disagreeing with
it, and then returning it to the software maker? You got it home,
you found it wasn't what you thought you bought, so you then return
it. How is it more unreasonable to require customers to return
tangible items, like a toaster, on their own time and at their own
expense for a product that doesn't meet their expectations, like
color, size, fit, or whatever, than of requiring customers to return
software that doesn't meet their expectations, like the terms of the
license?
All this hoopla when in fact Microsoft does accept returns. If you
don't agree to their license terms, return it!

Or I can use it, and avail myself of my interpretation of "fair use,"
and I'm doing nothing illegal. MS, or any other copyright owner that
disputes my interpretation of "fair use" must sue me and convince a
court that my interpretation is an infringement, not "fair use" before
anyone can tell me that my interpretation is illegal, immoral, or just
plain wrong.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
K

kurttrail

Mike said:
If your concern is not being able to read the EULA prior to purchase
we also publish it at
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/eula.mspx
and
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/eula.mspx

Yes this is the retail version but the general licensing terms are the
same - one copy one machine etc.

As regards you pressing I agree to the EULA there is no of course
about it. If you did not agree to the EULA terms then you should not
have pressed that button and your installation of software you did
not agree to be bound by the End User Licensing of will be cancelled.

If you had read the OEM Windows XP EULA you would have seen the
following
YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS
EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE
USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO
THE TERMS OF THIS EULA, YOU MAY NOT USE OR
COPY THE SOFTWARE, AND YOU SHOULD PROMPTLY
CONTACT MANUFACTURER FOR INSTRUCTIONS ON
RETURN OF THE UNUSED PRODUCT(S) FOR A
REFUND IN ACCORDANCE WITH MANUFACTURER'S
RETURN POLICIES.

So if you do not agree with the EULA then following the instructions
above should lead to a return of the software you cannot agree with
the licensing terms of.

And web stores that sell OEM software are hardly likely to take returns
of open software.

And why don't ya'll have all your EULAs on the web? What ya'll hiding?


--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 

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