Outlook 2003 with POP is a mess!

[CMM]

Man there are soooo many bugs when you mix Outlook 2003 and POP accounts in
the same profile. Throw in working offline with this set up and Outlook 2003
is completely unusable. It's like MS took 2 steps forward with OL2003 and 5
steps back. Here's a quick rundown

1) Rules are a mess. Why can't we have TRUE client side rules? If you're not
connected to Exchange Server then you can't edit rules (even the blatantly
client side ones) that for instance take a message coming in through the pop
account and move them to a local folder in a PST.
2) If you start Outlook and haven't connected to Exchange (like, you're off
the network or VPN is shut off) your rules don't run AT ALL. Even the client
side ones. (this bug is tricky and doesn't happen if you start up in "Work
Offline" mode... which isn't the default and is generally discouraged by
Microsoft because Cached Exchange Mode renders "Work Offline" redundant).
3) Is it me or are the "After I send message" rules completely shut off? I
can't get ANY of them to work. Why can't we create a rule that moves (MOVES
not copy) a message to a local folder when it is sent through a POP account?
4) If you set your POP account to "Leave messages on the server" Outlook has
the habit of re-downloading duplicates. This doesn't happen all the time...
I haven't isolated what might cause it. Maybe this bug is caused by some
rules I've set up to process incoming POP mail... but, why should it? It
worked beautifully in Outlook 2002!

 

[JET]

Yep see my post on 10/23 where they screw up with a security update, ask for
info and then never respond to a question that they ask when they get an
answer, Absurd!

 

[CMM]

For years now, while the other Office programs have been streamlined,
Outlook has grown more and more useless. Not for lack of features but for
lack of good design. I always bristle at just how few people at every
company I go to actually use Outlook for its intended purpose.... everyone
just uses it as a bloated "e-mail client." Not to lock resources like
conference rooms, share calendars, organize contacts, or set-up To Do lists
and Tasks.

 

[Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]]

And the users' lack of familiarity with Outlook possibilities is Microsoft's
problem.... How? Seems like the companies are not spending the time or
resources to properly train people on what Outlook is and how to get its
full potential running.

--
Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]

Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. All
unsolicited mail sent to my personal account will be deleted without
reading.

After furious head scratching, CMM asked:

| For years now, while the other Office programs have been streamlined,
| Outlook has grown more and more useless. Not for lack of features but
| for lack of good design. I always bristle at just how few people at
| every company I go to actually use Outlook for its intended
| purpose.... everyone just uses it as a bloated "e-mail client." Not
| to lock resources like conference rooms, share calendars, organize
| contacts, or set-up To Do lists and Tasks.
|
|
|
| "JET" <lifehelth at comcast dot net> wrote in message
| || Yep see my post on 10/23 where they screw up with a security update,
|| ask for info and then never respond to a question that they ask when
|| they get an answer, Absurd!
||
|| ||| Man there are soooo many bugs when you mix Outlook 2003 and POP
||| accounts in the same profile. Throw in working offline with this
||| set up and Outlook 2003 is completely unusable. It's like MS took 2
||| steps forward with OL2003 and 5 steps back. Here's a quick rundown
|||
||| 1) Rules are a mess. Why can't we have TRUE client side rules? If
||| you're not connected to Exchange Server then you can't edit rules
||| (even the blatantly client side ones) that for instance take a
||| message coming in through the pop account and move them to a local
||| folder in a PST. 2) If you start Outlook and haven't connected to
||| Exchange (like, you're off the network or VPN is shut off) your
||| rules don't run AT ALL. Even the client side ones. (this bug is
||| tricky and doesn't happen if you start up in "Work Offline" mode...
||| which isn't the default and is generally discouraged by Microsoft
||| because Cached Exchange Mode renders "Work Offline" redundant).
||| 3) Is it me or are the "After I send message" rules completely shut
||| off? I can't get ANY of them to work. Why can't we create a rule
||| that moves (MOVES not copy) a message to a local folder when it is
||| sent through a POP account?
||| 4) If you set your POP account to "Leave messages on the server"
||| Outlook has the habit of re-downloading duplicates. This doesn't
||| happen all the time... I haven't isolated what might cause it.
||| Maybe this bug is caused by some rules I've set up to process
||| incoming POP mail... but, why should it? It worked beautifully in
||| Outlook 2002!

 

[CMM]

I wouldn't entirely disagree with you. I for one love Outlook. But, it's not
entirely the organization's fault like you say. Even after training and
"spending the time and resources" many users simply decide it's not worth
the hassle. Outlook just doesn't add enough value to be worth the hassle.
Case in point? The technique of specifying a conference room as a resource
that you book alongside with a meeting... it's just not intuitive. Rules to
organize messages? Forget about it... most of the time "quirks" render them
useless. Using the Journal to log communications with a client? Yeah right!
(see P.S.)... And, I'm not talking about little companies here... but
departments in huge conglomerates that I've had the pleasure of working
with.

P.S. (you have to admit that even MS realized the uselessness of the
potential-having Journal relegating it to a buried sub-item in Outlook
2003... I loved the idea of the Journal!... but it's implementation just
left a lot to be desired.).

"Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]"

And the users' lack of familiarity with Outlook possibilities is
Microsoft's
problem.... How? Seems like the companies are not spending the time or
resources to properly train people on what Outlook is and how to get its
full potential running.

--
Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]

Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact. All
unsolicited mail sent to my personal account will be deleted without
reading.

After furious head scratching, CMM asked:

| For years now, while the other Office programs have been streamlined,
| Outlook has grown more and more useless. Not for lack of features but
| for lack of good design. I always bristle at just how few people at
| every company I go to actually use Outlook for its intended
| purpose.... everyone just uses it as a bloated "e-mail client." Not
| to lock resources like conference rooms, share calendars, organize
| contacts, or set-up To Do lists and Tasks.
|
|
|
| "JET" <lifehelth at comcast dot net> wrote in message
| || Yep see my post on 10/23 where they screw up with a security update,
|| ask for info and then never respond to a question that they ask when
|| they get an answer, Absurd!
||
|| ||| Man there are soooo many bugs when you mix Outlook 2003 and POP
||| accounts in the same profile. Throw in working offline with this
||| set up and Outlook 2003 is completely unusable. It's like MS took 2
||| steps forward with OL2003 and 5 steps back. Here's a quick rundown
|||
||| 1) Rules are a mess. Why can't we have TRUE client side rules? If
||| you're not connected to Exchange Server then you can't edit rules
||| (even the blatantly client side ones) that for instance take a
||| message coming in through the pop account and move them to a local
||| folder in a PST. 2) If you start Outlook and haven't connected to
||| Exchange (like, you're off the network or VPN is shut off) your
||| rules don't run AT ALL. Even the client side ones. (this bug is
||| tricky and doesn't happen if you start up in "Work Offline" mode...
||| which isn't the default and is generally discouraged by Microsoft
||| because Cached Exchange Mode renders "Work Offline" redundant).
||| 3) Is it me or are the "After I send message" rules completely shut
||| off? I can't get ANY of them to work. Why can't we create a rule
||| that moves (MOVES not copy) a message to a local folder when it is
||| sent through a POP account?
||| 4) If you set your POP account to "Leave messages on the server"
||| Outlook has the habit of re-downloading duplicates. This doesn't
||| happen all the time... I haven't isolated what might cause it.
||| Maybe this bug is caused by some rules I've set up to process
||| incoming POP mail... but, why should it? It worked beautifully in
||| Outlook 2002!

 

[N. Miller]

Yep see my post on 10/23 where they screw up with a security update, ask for
info and then never respond to a question that they ask when they get an
answer, Absurd!

Would that be this post?

| Subject: Microsoft Screws uo outlook again
| Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:50:28 -0500
| Message-ID: <#wa#[email protected]>
| Newsgroups: microsoft.public.outlook
| NNTP-Posting-Host: c-67-166-226-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net 67.166.226.3

OIC. Both a Comcast, and an SBC customer! Did you know...SBC is No.2 on
the Spamhaus top ten spam supporters, and Comcast is No.3? Not that the
information is of any relevance to this...

"They" are not Microsoft. These NNTP groups are mutual self-help groups,
and you will get answers from a multitude of non-MSFT sorts; some of whom
may have actual competence to respond. WRT to MS Outlook, I can do no more
than be a 'kibitzer', because I don't use it.

From the other thread, I gather that you ran into problems with a security
update. MSFT has a bad reputation for insecurity in their software. The
insecurities are real, and are a large part of the reason that waves of
viruses have crippled numerous corporate mail systems; though the Internet
itself has proven to be, mostly, resilient. So MSFT is trying to improve
their product security.

As for how MS Outlook handles email; well, that is beyond my competence.
But it appears that Outlook does more than just interpret the raw code of
the message; it actually alters it. If you don't want the mail program
altering the raw code, use a mail client which doesn't actually change the
bits. The fancier the tricks used to prettify the display, the more likely
there will be a problem. E-Mail was invented well before HTML, and the Web,
and the fact that MIME has been invented to shoehorn graphical stuff into a
text-only medium is somewhat like watching pigs fly; one should not be
critical of how poorly the pigs fly; rather, one should be amazed that they
fly at all.

To uninstall a security update for Office; is it not listed in the
Add/Remove programs control panel?

--
Norman
~I'll be there, by your side
~in the land of Twilight.
~In your dream I will go
~'till we find the Sunlight.

 

[Brian Tillman]

Man there are soooo many bugs when you mix Outlook 2003 and POP
accounts in the same profile.

Do you mean "mix Exchange and POP accounts"? Outlook 2003 isn't an account.
I have my mailbox on an Exchange account, two POP accounts, and an IMAP
account in my Outlook profile and never have any trouble. This sort of
shoots holes in your contention that your problems are due to an Outlook
bug, or everyone would be having the same problems.

Throw in working offline with this set
up and Outlook 2003 is completely unusable.

I have to admit, I don't use "Work Offline".

It's like MS took 2 steps
forward with OL2003 and 5 steps back. Here's a quick rundown

1) Rules are a mess. Why can't we have TRUE client side rules? If
you're not connected to Exchange Server then you can't edit rules
(even the blatantly client side ones) that for instance take a
message coming in through the pop account and move them to a local
folder in a PST.

I can see where this would be annoying to some, but it certainly doesn't
constitute "a mess".

2) If you start Outlook and haven't connected to
Exchange (like, you're off the network or VPN is shut off) your rules
don't run AT ALL.

If you're not connected to Exchange, there's nothing agains which to run.
Since you're offline, there can be no new messages in your Inbox, so your
rules would have nothing to do.

Even the client side ones. (this bug is tricky and
doesn't happen if you start up in "Work Offline" mode... which isn't
the default and is generally discouraged by Microsoft because Cached
Exchange Mode renders "Work Offline" redundant).

So, this seems to me to indicate that the rules ARE working as designed,
since by your own admission, they work when you tell Outlook you're offline.
This seems to conflict with your prior problem where you say the "don't run
AT ALL". It can't be both. Either they run or they don't.

3) Is it me or are
the "After I send message" rules completely shut off? I can't get ANY
of them to work.

Since a message isn't sent until it moves from the Outbox and since when
you're offline there's no transport to perform that move, why would you
expect these rules to do anything when offline?

Why can't we create a rule that moves (MOVES not
copy) a message to a local folder when it is sent through a POP
account?

You can. Disable the option to save a copy to the Sent Items folder. It is
that option that is making the extra copy, not the rule.

4) If you set your POP account to "Leave messages on the
server" Outlook has the habit of re-downloading duplicates. This
doesn't happen all the time... I haven't isolated what might cause
it. Maybe this bug is caused by some rules I've set up to process
incoming POP mail... but, why should it? It worked beautifully in
Outlook 2002!

Outlook 2003 prior to SP2 did have problems with that. SP2 was supposed to
have addressed that issue. Did it not?

 

[Brian Tillman]

As for how MS Outlook handles email; well, that is beyond my
competence. But it appears that Outlook does more than just interpret
the raw code of the message; it actually alters it. If you don't want
the mail program altering the raw code, use a mail client which
doesn't actually change the bits.

I firmly believe that active content in email has been one of the greatest
impediments to productivity ever conceived.

The fancier the tricks used to
prettify the display, the more likely there will be a problem. E-Mail
was invented well before HTML, and the Web, and the fact that MIME
has been invented to shoehorn graphical stuff into a text-only medium
is somewhat like watching pigs fly; one should not be critical of how
poorly the pigs fly; rather, one should be amazed that they fly at
all.

ROTFL! I agree!

 

[CMM]

Quite right... I meant to say "mix Exchange with POP accounts." ... and
should clarify by saying this: *In a frequently
disconnected-from-Exchange-but-not-the-Internet set-up.* Sorry about that.

In this case, my "contentions" are justified... i.e. they're outright bugs
not some misconception on my part.... I'm not an idiot... I've been using
Outlook since it was called Exchange Inbox in Windows 95. See below for my
responses

Do you mean "mix Exchange and POP accounts"? Outlook 2003 isn't an
account. I have my mailbox on an Exchange account, two POP accounts, and
an IMAP account in my Outlook profile and never have any trouble. This
sort of shoots holes in your contention that your problems are due to an
Outlook bug, or everyone would be having the same problems.


I have to admit, I don't use "Work Offline".

And you shouldn't have to. Cached Exchange Mode is suppossed to make it
obsolete.

I can see where this would be annoying to some, but it certainly doesn't
constitute "a mess".

"For some" meaning people who aren't connected to Exchange all the time...
something Outlook 2003 was suppossed to make a productive experience.

If you're not connected to Exchange, there's nothing agains which to run.
Since you're offline, there can be no new messages in your Inbox, so your
rules would have nothing to do.

Very wrong. How about my POP messages coming in? Disconnected from Exchange
doesn't mean disconnected from the World. How come my rules don't run
against messages coming in from a POP account when I start Outlook
(disconnected from Exchange)? BUT, if I make sure my VPN to Exchange is
running when I start Outlook and then disconnect at some point later my
rules continue to work... even without Exchange! Furthermore, if I start
Outlook and put it in "Work Offline" mode (still disconnected from
Exchange), the rules do work. This is a bug. Plain and simple.

Before this all starts to sound too complex... lemme make it simple. You
have a laptop. You have Exchange and POP accounts set up. You're on the road
and not connected to Exchange. You fire up Outlook. Your POP messages come
in. No rules run against them. ...... Is this by design? No, because if I
put Outlook in "Work Offline" mode, the mysterious suppossedly Exchange
dependent rules do indeed run.

So, this seems to me to indicate that the rules ARE working as designed,
since by your own admission, they work when you tell Outlook you're
offline. This seems to conflict with your prior problem where you say the
"don't run AT ALL". It can't be both. Either they run or they don't.

Again, speaking about POP messages here.... They run when "Work Offline" is
ON.... something you must do MANUALLY... and Outlook reaches out to download
POP messages before you can put it in "Work Offline" mode. By that time it's
too late.

Since a message isn't sent until it moves from the Outbox and since when
you're offline there's no transport to perform that move, why would you
expect these rules to do anything when offline?

Yes there is a transport. I'm sending them over SMTP.

You can. Disable the option to save a copy to the Sent Items folder. It
is that option that is making the extra copy, not the rule.


Outlook 2003 prior to SP2 did have problems with that. SP2 was supposed
to have addressed that issue. Did it not?

Not on my set-up. I am using SP2. It still occurs... I haven't figured out
the intricate cause.

 

[CMM]

Let me further clarify by saying that the rules I am referring to are
so-called CLIENT SIDE rules that act on POP messages. One of their criteria
is "Through xxxx account." I understand the whole difference between
Exchange Server side rules and local rules that do things like move a
message to a PST.

The BUG is that these client side rules do not fire when you start up
Outlook and are not connected to Exchange (but you are connected to your POP
accounts).