Elephant Boy Computers - top spammer

[Terry R.]

No, it isn't, and that isn't the only way it makes sense. Do you have
to click "Reply" to every message you quickly want to get to the bottom
of and read? I click in the message pane, press "End" and I'm there.
Everyone doesn't need to reply just to read.

Well, I usually read the messages that I'm replying to. Once you've made
almost 25,000 postings (Windows groups only) via newsreader you know the
features that *really* make sense.
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_uauthors=Detlev Dreyer

Sorry, the case is closed.

[F'up to: poster]
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, you don't have the power to close anything. So, you ONLY read
messages you're going to reply to. Interesting how you know that before
reading. Pat yourself on the back all you want, it doesn't change the
fact that all newsreaders should have a quick method to go to the end of
a message within the message view pane.

--
Terry R.

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[Terry R.]

On 12/17/2007 11:04 AM On a whim, Daave pounded out on the keyboard

But if you don't wish to reply, simple methods come in handy when the
beginning of a bottom- or inline-posted message is a certain number of
lines from the top which necessitates scrolling.

People who favor top-posting cite the fact that they don't need/want to
scroll (and that others shouldn't need/want to scroll, either) in the
first place as a reason they think it's good to top-post. Of course, it
ruins the flow of the dialogue.

I don't know about other newsreaders, but Outlook Express offers a very
easy way around this: the space bar.

Granted, OE is somewhat of a broken newsreader out of the box (e.g., not
having the cursor in the proper location -- at the bottom of the message
on is replying to). But it really doesn't take much effort to use a
mouse or the page-down button! And the OE QuoteFix app is decent in that
it turns OE into a decent news client (complete with the option to place
the cursor where it belongs).

That's the problem. The ones that do it that way don't feel there's
anything wrong with their newsreader, regardless if QuoteFix is a known
solver of this issue.

--
Terry R.

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[Mike Hall - MVP]

And then scroll back up if the answer is interleaved? Why make life so
difficult? Just because Fred Flintstone did it that way?

It amuses me that the issue of whether one should top or bottom post ALWAYS
comes up after a troll has lost arguments over Vista or anything Microsoft.
In most cases, the troll will start another post, but now and again, it is
used as a last ditch snipe.

To get people to co-operate, one has to be nice about it. Unfortunately,
trolls have been slinging insults and name calling, not only to those who
try to help, but to newbies and others with problems too.

I could take issue with the top line which appears in all of your posts, but
I don't. I let it go. Yours is not as bad as some I have seen, and one of
the many reasons I quit the alt.os groups was because of the sneering
attitudes and lack of decency showed by some there.

 

[Detlev Dreyer]

Sorry, you don't have the power to close anything.

Believe me, I do.

[F'up to: poster]

 

[Frank]

On 12/15/2007 5:22 AM On a whim, Mike Hall - MVP pounded out on the keyboard


That is the fault of the poster if they don't snip what isn't relevant
to their reply. Sure laziness can cause a lengthy post. But to take
out EVERYTHING because of a delimiter being used when top posting is
just wrong. Look at your answer above. It looks like you just made a
comment out of nowhere.

--
Terry R.

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[Terry R.]

On 12/17/2007 11:23 AM On a whim, Mike Hall - MVP pounded out on the
keyboard

And then scroll back up if the answer is interleaved? Why make life so
difficult? Just because Fred Flintstone did it that way?

I have no idea who you're responding to, but interspersed text really
can't be considered in this discussion. It doesn't happen all the time
and if top posters didn't use the DELIMITER, a lot of this discussion
wouldn't even be necessary.

It amuses me that the issue of whether one should top or bottom post ALWAYS
comes up after a troll has lost arguments over Vista or anything Microsoft.
In most cases, the troll will start another post, but now and again, it is
used as a last ditch snipe.

I seriously doubt it's ALWAYS.

To get people to co-operate, one has to be nice about it. Unfortunately,
trolls have been slinging insults and name calling, not only to those who
try to help, but to newbies and others with problems too.

I could take issue with the top line which appears in all of your posts, but
I don't. I let it go. Yours is not as bad as some I have seen, and one of
the many reasons I quit the alt.os groups was because of the sneering
attitudes and lack of decency showed by some there.

Again, I don't know who you're responding to, but the header line isn't
the issue here. But that's big of you to "let it go" with whoever you
are referring to.


--
Terry R.

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[Leythos]

It amuses me that the issue of whether one should top or bottom post ALWAYS
comes up after a troll has lost arguments over Vista or anything Microsoft.

No, it's actually because MS decided they would do Usenet their way and
violate every standard except the message formats.

Simple problems: Improper quoting, HTML in some cases, makes people
think they are using email, failure to clip signatures, failure to
insert signature with delimiter properly, failure to bottom post by
default.....

MS Abused Usenet from the start, they didn't have too, but they believe
they have the power to change everything - except that Usenet was
clearly established before MS even became aware of a Usenet or Internet
as most know it.

Yes, many people that whine about top/bottom posting are trolls, I've
never been one and have been using Usenet since 84, so I've seen all
types, the worst one as the ones that feel they are more important than
following standards and norms for something older than their experience
with it.

Your current reply method, the one I'm replying to, is meaningless
without some inclusion of the post you were replying to.

You do understand that Usenet is not perfect and article loss is common,
which is the reason people snip/reply with the relevant part of the
message they are replying to - you know this, right?

--

Leythos
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
(e-mail address removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)

 

[Daave]

There is a lot of talk about not seeing stuff and yet all of my top
posts have been seen. The only difference is that there is not a lot
of crap above or below. Or is there?

Mike Hall - MVP
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx

I noticed you stopped using the delimiter, Mike. Thanks!

The talk was not about whether or not your posts have been seen but
rather about the consequences of replying to a top-posted message which
happens to include a delimiter. Now that you have altered how you post
(thanks again), replying to your posts can preserve whatever the new
poster deems is necessary.

I can't vouch for other newsreaders, but when using OE w/ QuoteFix,
Control+Z comes in handy whenever replying to a top-posted message which
contains a delimiter.

 

[WaIIy]

On 12/16/2007 4:45 AM On a whim, Mike Hall - MVP pounded out on the keyboard


Shouldn't have to scroll at all (except for interspersed replies). Click
on the message pane and press End. Or doesn't your newsreader work that way?

I guess I'm confused. How many posts are so long you have to scroll ?

This is ludicrous.

 

[WaIIy]

And then scroll back up if the answer is interleaved? Why make life so
difficult? Just because Fred Flintstone did it that way?

It amuses me that the issue of whether one should top or bottom post ALWAYS
comes up after a troll has lost arguments over Vista or anything Microsoft.
In most cases, the troll will start another post, but now and again, it is
used as a last ditch snipe.

To get people to co-operate, one has to be nice about it. Unfortunately,
trolls have been slinging insults and name calling, not only to those who
try to help, but to newbies and others with problems too.

I could take issue with the top line which appears in all of your posts, but
I don't. I let it go. Yours is not as bad as some I have seen, and one of
the many reasons I quit the alt.os groups was because of the sneering
attitudes and lack of decency showed by some there.

Who are you replying to? This makes no sense.

 

[Daave]

And then scroll back up if the answer is interleaved? Why make life so
difficult? Just because Fred Flintstone did it that way?

Since you deleted the important context, I need to reconstruct this:

First, I made this remark:

Contextualized inline posting, using generous snipping without cutting
away too much "story" is the easiest type of post to follow. It may
take a few more seconds to post this way, but the dividends are
certainly worth the tiny effort.

Oh, and in my newsreader (OE along with OE QuoteFix), scrolling is
easily accomplished by pressing the space bar.

Then you responded:

Scrolling is easy enough. I just choose not to want to do it in order to
read every post..

Then TerryR said:

Shouldn't have to scroll at all (except for interspersed replies). Click

And then scroll back up if the answer is interleaved? Why make life so
difficult? Just because Fred Flintstone did it that way?

By snipping everything relevant, you have made it pretty difficult to
follow this thread. I doubt very much this was your intention, but that
is the effect.

Anyway, I'm not quite sure I get your point. We're talking about reading
a post. There should never be any reason to scroll back up again, even
with interleaving. Take this post, for instance. I started on the fifth
line. When it's time to scroll down in order to continue reading, the
space bar does the trick. Just read the normal way, from the top of the
page to the bottom. If anything, this makes life *easier*!

It amuses me that the issue of whether one should top or bottom post
ALWAYS comes up after a troll has lost arguments over Vista or
anything Microsoft. In most cases, the troll will start another post,
but now and again, it is used as a last ditch snipe.

Don't you think ALWAYS is just a bit of an exaggeration? ;-)

To get people to co-operate, one has to be nice about it.
Unfortunately, trolls have been slinging insults and name calling,
not only to those who try to help, but to newbies and others with
problems too.

I hope people perceive me as being nice. I don't recall slinging insults
or calling people names.

I could take issue with the top line which appears in all of your
posts, but I don't. I let it go.

But you snipped it!

For the benefit of others, TerryR's top line was:

On 12/16/2007 4:45 AM On a whim, Mike Hall - MVP pounded out on the
keyboard

Why would anyone take issue with that? Opening lines like that are just
as much a tradition on Usenet as signatures. It wasn't directed to you,
specifically; it's a universal, tongue-in-cheek attribution.

 

[Terry R.]

There is a lot of talk about not seeing stuff and yet all of my top
posts have been seen. The only difference is that there is not a lot
of crap above or below. Or is there?

Mike Hall - MVP
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx

I noticed you stopped using the delimiter, Mike. Thanks!

The talk was not about whether or not your posts have been seen but
rather about the consequences of replying to a top-posted message which
happens to include a delimiter. Now that you have altered how you post
(thanks again), replying to your posts can preserve whatever the new
poster deems is necessary.

I can't vouch for other newsreaders, but when using OE w/ QuoteFix,
Control+Z comes in handy whenever replying to a top-posted message which
contains a delimiter.
[/QUOTE]

Don't hold your breath. He just did it for one post.

--
Terry R.

***Reply Note***
Anti-spam measures are included in my email address.
Delete NOSPAM from the email address after clicking Reply.

 

[Terry R.]

And then scroll back up if the answer is interleaved? Why make life so
difficult? Just because Fred Flintstone did it that way?

Since you deleted the important context, I need to reconstruct this:

First, I made this remark:

Contextualized inline posting, using generous snipping without cutting
away too much "story" is the easiest type of post to follow. It may
take a few more seconds to post this way, but the dividends are
certainly worth the tiny effort.

Oh, and in my newsreader (OE along with OE QuoteFix), scrolling is
easily accomplished by pressing the space bar.

Then you responded:

Scrolling is easy enough. I just choose not to want to do it in order to
read every post..

Then TerryR said:

Shouldn't have to scroll at all (except for interspersed replies). Click

And then scroll back up if the answer is interleaved? Why make life so
difficult? Just because Fred Flintstone did it that way?

By snipping everything relevant, you have made it pretty difficult to
follow this thread. I doubt very much this was your intention, but that
is the effect.

Anyway, I'm not quite sure I get your point. We're talking about reading
a post. There should never be any reason to scroll back up again, even
with interleaving. Take this post, for instance. I started on the fifth
line. When it's time to scroll down in order to continue reading, the
space bar does the trick. Just read the normal way, from the top of the
page to the bottom. If anything, this makes life *easier*!

It amuses me that the issue of whether one should top or bottom post
ALWAYS comes up after a troll has lost arguments over Vista or
anything Microsoft. In most cases, the troll will start another post,
but now and again, it is used as a last ditch snipe.

Don't you think ALWAYS is just a bit of an exaggeration? ;-)

To get people to co-operate, one has to be nice about it.
Unfortunately, trolls have been slinging insults and name calling,
not only to those who try to help, but to newbies and others with
problems too.

I hope people perceive me as being nice. I don't recall slinging insults
or calling people names.

I could take issue with the top line which appears in all of your
posts, but I don't. I let it go.

But you snipped it!

For the benefit of others, TerryR's top line was:

On 12/16/2007 4:45 AM On a whim, Mike Hall - MVP pounded out on the
keyboard

Why would anyone take issue with that? Opening lines like that are just
as much a tradition on Usenet as signatures. It wasn't directed to you,
specifically; it's a universal, tongue-in-cheek attribution.
[/QUOTE]

I couldn't tell if he was referring to my header line or someone else.
If he took any offense to that, the delimiter thing is the least of his
issues.

--
Terry R.

***Reply Note***
Anti-spam measures are included in my email address.
Delete NOSPAM from the email address after clicking Reply.

 

[Daave]

I noticed you stopped using the delimiter, Mike. Thanks!

The talk was not about whether or not your posts have been seen but
rather about the consequences of replying to a top-posted message
which happens to include a delimiter. Now that you have altered how
you post (thanks again), replying to your posts can preserve
whatever the new poster deems is necessary.

I can't vouch for other newsreaders, but when using OE w/ QuoteFix,
Control+Z comes in handy whenever replying to a top-posted message
which contains a delimiter.

Don't hold your breath. He just did it for one post.[/QUOTE]

Hope springs eternal!

 

[Daave]

Since you deleted the important context, I need to reconstruct this:

First, I made this remark:

Contextualized inline posting, using generous snipping without
cutting away too much "story" is the easiest type of post to follow.
It may take a few more seconds to post this way, but the dividends
are certainly worth the tiny effort.

Oh, and in my newsreader (OE along with OE QuoteFix), scrolling is
easily accomplished by pressing the space bar.

Then you responded:

Scrolling is easy enough. I just choose not to want to do it in
order to read every post..

Then TerryR said:

Shouldn't have to scroll at all (except for interspersed replies).
Click on the message pane and press End. Or doesn't your newsreader
work that way?

To which you answered:


By snipping everything relevant, you have made it pretty difficult to
follow this thread. I doubt very much this was your intention, but
that is the effect.

Anyway, I'm not quite sure I get your point. We're talking about
reading a post. There should never be any reason to scroll back up
again, even with interleaving. Take this post, for instance. I
started on the fifth line. When it's time to scroll down in order to
continue reading, the space bar does the trick. Just read the normal
way, from the top of the page to the bottom. If anything, this makes
life *easier*!


Don't you think ALWAYS is just a bit of an exaggeration? ;-)


I hope people perceive me as being nice. I don't recall slinging
insults or calling people names.


But you snipped it!

For the benefit of others, TerryR's top line was:

On 12/16/2007 4:45 AM On a whim, Mike Hall - MVP pounded out on the
keyboard

Why would anyone take issue with that? Opening lines like that are
just as much a tradition on Usenet as signatures. It wasn't directed
to you, specifically; it's a universal, tongue-in-cheek attribution.

I couldn't tell if he was referring to my header line or someone else.
If he took any offense to that, the delimiter thing is the least of
his issues.[/QUOTE]

He was replying to your post. But since he snipped the actual line, no
one (including yourself) knows what he's talking about unless they go
out of their way to reconstruct the thread. I did it that time to
demonstrate my point, but it's not something I plan on getting in the
habit of doing!

And I was also perplexed as to why that might have been in the least way
offensive.

 

[Mike Hall - MVP]

I guess I'm confused. How many posts are so long you have to scroll ?

This is ludicrous.

Single posts are not too long in themselves but bottom posters have a bad
habit of leaving a great deal of crap above the reply which requires
scrolling down. If one doesn't scroll, interleaved postings get missed
entirely.

As a result, long, meaningless runs of threads as per this one become really
quite tiresome.

Also, my newsreader doesn't miss top or bottom posts, and I do my best to
accommodate all without whining about it..

 

[mike]

And then scroll back up if the answer is interleaved? Why make life so
difficult? Just because Fred Flintstone did it that way?

It amuses me that the issue of whether one should top or bottom post
ALWAYS comes up after a troll has lost arguments over Vista or anything
Microsoft. In most cases, the troll will start another post, but now and
again, it is used as a last ditch snipe.

To get people to co-operate, one has to be nice about it. Unfortunately,
trolls have been slinging insults and name calling, not only to those who
try to help, but to newbies and others with problems too.

I could take issue with the top line which appears in all of your posts,
but I don't. I let it go. Yours is not as bad as some I have seen, and one
of the many reasons I quit the alt.os groups was because of the sneering
attitudes and lack of decency showed by some there.

What i don't understand, is the need for others to make someone conform to
their standards of usernet posting. if it bothers you so much don't read
their post's or kill file them..................

 

[Leythos]

Single posts are not too long in themselves but bottom posters have a bad
habit of leaving a great deal of crap above the reply which requires
scrolling down. If one doesn't scroll, interleaved postings get missed
entirely.

As a result, long, meaningless runs of threads as per this one become really
quite tiresome.

Also, my newsreader doesn't miss top or bottom posts, and I do my best to
accommodate all without whining about it..

Did you know that most quality, designed for Usenet, commonly snip
quoted text at 50 lines or about that? That's the difference between
using an email client for Usenet and using a Usenet client.


--

Leythos
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
(e-mail address removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)

 

[Leythos]

What i don't understand, is the need for others to make someone conform to
their standards of usernet posting. if it bothers you so much don't read
their post's or kill file them..................

How about if we could just get people to use Usenet clients that
understood Usenet posts - yours is broken, it didn't snip the signature
of Mike's message when you replied, I left it there to show you.

--

Leythos
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
(e-mail address removed) (remove 999 for proper email address)

 

[Terry R.]

On 12/17/2007 7:52 PM On a whim, Leythos pounded out on the keyboard

How about if we could just get people to use Usenet clients that
understood Usenet posts - yours is broken, it didn't snip the signature
of Mike's message when you replied, I left it there to show you.

Because he's using the same client as the offenders...should we be
surprised? That's why MS isn't concerned about a top post using a
delimiter, because MS clients ignore the delimiter altogether.

--
Terry R.

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