Program similar to FindRun Robot

[mouser]

I disagree. If you were "open and transparent" then you would tell

people BEFORE THEY DOWNLOAD anything that they will need to
"register" again and again and again and...... to use the programs as
freeware.

just to be clear, you only have to "register" once. then after 6
months you just go to the key page url and click one button to make
another that lasts another 6 months.

you said:

Then why not clearly state that on your web pages ?

here's the SECOND (bolded even) item on the "start" page
(http://www.donationcoder.com/About/start.html):

"I'm already using one of your programs.. Where can I download a
freeware license key for it?
In order to encourage donations, some of our programs require
non-members to sign up at our forum and download a new freeware license
key every 6 months."

there is a LOT of information on our site, it's a bit hard to make
every piece of information obvious from every page. we've been through
menu iterations of the pages, moving information here and there, we're
doing our best.

Bye the way, my gripe is NOT about paying for programs. I paid
for this newsreader and I have paid for other programs I use. I
just dislike sites that hide "limitations" until after someone has
"registered" and/or "downloaded".

fair enough; every program page that requires a freeware license key
says has a link at the very top item on the upper left of the page:
"[Request License Key]" that takes you to key page whch explains
exactly the policy. maybe we could add a little more information with
that link.

i get the feeling that it's never going to be enough though. part of
the problem is that people with plenty of money might feel like why are
there all these complications? why can't i just push a "buy now"
button? a problem with doing something more complicate than pure
freeware or pure shareware is the difficulty of explaining the idea..
probably never going to be a perfect solution. the only good part i
guess is that the people who do join our site tend to be people who are
a little more interested in being part of something, rather than just
the gimme it now here's the money crowd.

 

[mouser]

Mouser doesn't appear to want either of those options so he should

consider "plan B". The approach that many others take. Have two
versions of a fully working program. The first being freeware and the
second with "advanced" features.
People are often happy to pay for an "advanced" program if they like
the freeware one, and the seller is totally "up front" about how they
are doing things.

this is actually an interesting point - personally the division of
"lite" and "full" versions is exactly what we are trying to avoid.

our whole intent is to be able to bring everyone the full version and
ask them to donate whatever they think it's worth to them, including
nothing if they can't afford anything (or if they don't want to pay for
it for whatever reason).

we are specifically interested in promoting the idea that users should
donate what they would like to (and are able to) donate, and not a cent
more, for the full version of all of our programs. (note also in case
it's not clear, users who donate any amount once get access to every
program and all content on our site, it's not like you donate for each
program).

 

[mouser]

i'm afraid that's right; after 6 months you need to visit the key page
and click generate to make a new key for the program.
actually i think we are probably going to change that to have it pop up
the reminder to get a new key after 6 months and never expire; it would
serve the same purpose.

 

[mouser]

if people are really interested i'd be happy to dig up and make
available for download the last version that had no license key code.
you can view the program help file for a complete version history to
see if there's anything new you need:
http://www.donationcoder.com/Software/Mouser/findrun/help/index.html

ps. looks like according to the release history in the help file that
license code was added at Version 1.05.22, August 27, 2005
there have been quite a few releases since then but maybe not stuff you
need if you are really philosophically opposed to our approach.

 

[Susan Bugher]

That was the impetus for creating the site, to try to build a community
of users and coders who are willing to agree to a kind of compact,
where users are willing to donate what they think the software is
worth, and coders are willing to put in the time and effort to interact
with users to build commercial quality software. With the
understanding that no one is going to get rich, but maybe we can
generate enough rewards to breathe a little life into the donationware
model of funding.

All well and good but that's not Freeware. Freeware has no quid pro quo,
no "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours". . . See:

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/WareGlossary.php

"Legally obtainable software that you may use at no cost, monetary or
otherwise, for as long as you wish."

IOW - Freeware is a gift that is given freely. Freeware has NO strings
attached - it's given without any expectation of return, there are no
requests for donations, no time limitations, no registration
requirements. . .

Try this experiment before you come down on us so hard for trying to
encourage donations, pick some amazing freeware on the web that just
has a little donate button or message on the site. Email the author
and ask them if they've gotten many donations. You'd probably be
depressed at the answer. I really do believe that donationware can be
the future of software but we all need to be more willing to make
donations to worthy products for that to work.

My suggestion that you ask for payment rather than donations was not an
attempt to "come down hard on you". It was a suggestion that you face
reality squarely. As you say, the reality is that donations to software
authors are few and far between. Apparently your MAIN goal is to change
the hearts and minds of the people. I wish you luck on that uphill road
and withdraw my suggestion.

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)

 

[mouser]

although there is no "official single definition" of freewae, i would
agree with this definition you cited

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/WareGlossary.php
"Legally obtainable software that you may use at no cost, monetary or
otherwise, for as long as you wish."

and i agree with your statement:

Freeware has no quid pro quo,
no "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours". . .

i posted links to threads on our forum discussing your view that
freeware requires

no requests for donations

a case can certainly be made that as soon as an author even hints or is
willing to accept a donation suddenly a freeware program becomes
non-freeware and becomes something else (donationware presumably) - but
i don't think that's a meaningul definition personally.

if freeware bothers anyone, you could call our software donationware, i
don't mind that. though i think it would be more meaningul to call
software donationware when it *requires* a donation. but i admit
that's not the accepted terminology. i don't think a single person can
visit our site and say it's not clear that we are asking for donations.

 

[Mike Andrade]

though i think it would be more meaningul to call
software donationware when it *requires* a donation

That's called shareware or commercialware.

 

[mouser]

let me clarify,
i have suggested that the term "donationware" be used to describe
software that *requires* a monetary or other donation of some sort, BUT
does not specify any minimum amount, and so let's the user choose
exactly how much they want to or can afford to donate.

i don't know any "shareware" that fits this criteria, though i'd love
to. we do not in fact *require* a donation of any amount, i just think
that requirement would be a more useful distinction between freeware
and donationware terms.

ps.
here's some text on our donation page to give you another idea of our
approach (http://www.donationcoder.com/Donate/DonateMethod.html):
"Alternatives - You may also mail us your donation or contact us to
arrange an alternate method of donating. If you cannot afford to donate
anything, send us a postcard or letter instead, and we will treat it as
equivalent to a donation; if you are an artist, send us a painting or
drawing."

 

[66gdub]

As someone who 'donated' a modest amount of money towards findandrun,
because I :
a) found it to be such an amazingly useful app
b) was so impressed by the philosophy of mouser and the donationcoder
community,
I can only say that my experience has been totally positive.
I love freeware as much as the next person, but I also appreciate that
a lot of talent and time goes into coding applications ; if one were to
'hang' for awhile at the donationcoder forums or in #donationcoder on
efnet you'd quickly get a sense that mouser is one of the nicest ppl
*evar, and would be the last person looking to 'hose' anyone.
I chose to donate because I respect the coder, I love the application
and I very much appreciate the philosophy behind the software. I don't
see why these are things we should all assume we can take for granted
ad infinitum.
I read this thread and I see so much fuss about nothing.
@ the original poster, throwing down even 1 dollar will get you exactly
what you're looking for (for life), and as has been mentioned if you
are really against paying for findandrun, you can still have it.
@ some of the other posters with the sanctimonious 'gimme my freeware
or else' attitudes, imho you really need to learn how to code your own
apps in that you may grow to appreciate what some of these ppl do for
you for *nothing.

Regards to you too.
gdub

 

[Hengist_Ludd]

Nearly all the software discussed here runs on Windows. Anyone who's
bought into a Microsoft operating system has already made a Faustian
bargain with the most predatory capitalist monopoly on the planet.
Whereupon, the shrill self-righteousness of the chant of "Free! Free!
Gimme!" beggars belief...

Come to think of it, who's to say that the definition of "freeware"
adopted by this group is in itself unassailable holy writ?

 

[Hengist_Ludd]

There's a difference.

Mouser's idea of Donationware -requests- money, but does not -require-
it.

Shareware -absolutely- requires money, often with threat of legal action.

Mouser seems to have hit on a new paradigm between freeware and shareware.
OK, I see that the nature of the "requests" irritates some people, but
they still don't have to pay anything, and payment's what I take to be the
prime criterion for shareware or commercial software.

 

[Azzman]

snip

Mouser seems to have hit on a new paradigm between freeware and
shareware.

Let's call it paradigm-ware
But out of curiosity, I'm gonna mail mouser to tell him I don't want to
donate anything, and see if I get a key that doesn't expire.

 

[No I'm Spartacus]

just to be clear, you only have to "register" once. then after 6
months you just go to the key page url and click one button to make
another that lasts another 6 months.

John is correct in what he said. It needs to be stated before you sign
up for the forums that the key is only valid for a certain time period
unless you donate. Not after you sign up, before. If I had known
thatlittle fact before I signed up for the forums to get a key, I
would not have signed up. I have no interest in shareware - only true
freeware. No nags, no crippling, no time limitations.

Bye the way, my gripe is NOT about paying for programs. I paid
for this newsreader and I have paid for other programs I use. I
just dislike sites that hide "limitations" until after someone has
"registered" and/or "downloaded".

fair enough; every program page that requires a freeware license key
says has a link at the very top item on the upper left of the page:
"[Request License Key]" that takes you to key page whch explains
exactly the policy. maybe we could add a little more information with
that link.

John has the same gripe that I had when I posted the original topic.
Whether a program is freeware or shareware is up to the author - and I
have no problems with that - if you think the program is good enough,
you pay for it, if not, you go look for a freeware equivalent. But,
when a site claims that you get a free key when you sign up for the
forums, and only once you sign up, you are told that the key is time
limited, that in my opinion is dishonest, and not worthy of respect.
And that makes me angry.

 

[No I'm Spartacus]

Just to make it clear, it is *not* the case that after 6 months the program
stops working if you don't make a donation.

The way it works is after 6 months you have to visit the website and grab
a new license key for the next 6 months. There is no limit to how often
you can do this.

Making a donation of any amount gets you a non-expiring license key for
all of our programs.

So if the program doesn't stop working, why do you need to visit the
website to get another key?

 

[No I'm Spartacus]

Who can be bothered with a n o t h e r password?

I liked the program, but decided to undelete owing to keys/passords/pop-ups
and it still left traces on my computer.

I decided to give it another go, but ended up doing the same.

Far better to make installation easier and ask for a donation later, or
just make a charge for it?

Well said Saxman. Charge for it up front would be the honest thing to
do - it is shareware after all.

 

[No I'm Spartacus]

Mouser doesn't appear to want either of those options so he should
consider "plan B". The approach that many others take. Have two
versions of a fully working program. The first being freeware and the
second with "advanced" features.

People are often happy to pay for an "advanced" program if they like
the freeware one, and the seller is totally "up front" about how they
are doing things.

Regards, John.

That's quite a good idea actually John. A good alternative to the
other options.

 

[No I'm Spartacus]

i'm afraid that's right; after 6 months you need to visit the key page
and click generate to make a new key for the program.
actually i think we are probably going to change that to have it pop up
the reminder to get a new key after 6 months and never expire; it would
serve the same purpose.

And a quote from one of your earlier posts: "Just to make it clear, it
is *not* the case that after 6 months the program stops working if you
don't make a donation."
At least now you have admitted that statement was incorrect. A program
that expires like this can't be called freeware I'm afraid.

 

[No I'm Spartacus]

There's a difference.

Mouser's idea of Donationware -requests- money, but does not -require-
it.

Shareware -absolutely- requires money, often with threat of legal action.

Mouser seems to have hit on a new paradigm between freeware and shareware.
OK, I see that the nature of the "requests" irritates some people, but
they still don't have to pay anything, and payment's what I take to be the
prime criterion for shareware or commercial software.

But mouser has said that if you don't get a new key every 6 months,
the program stops working. If you want it to keep working, you need to
donate/pay to get a proper licence. That's shareware.

 

[Azzman]

snip

Let's call it paradigm-ware
But out of curiosity, I'm gonna mail mouser to tell him I don't want to
donate anything, and see if I get a key that doesn't expire.

Just received my non-expiring key by email.
Must say, nice program.

 

[mouser]

hehe, i can see there are non-believers here

Let me help put this in a little perspective.

Over the 8 or 9 months since the site has been online, we've never once
hesitated or questioned someone who asked for a free license - nor made
them feel bad about asking - that's just the whole point of what we are
trying to do.

It is was our initial belief, and our experience thus far has borne
this out, that the (somewhat counter-intuitive) problem with getting
people to donate was *not* that they were unwilling to contribute a
litle money to something they liked, but just that we all have an
inertia that keeps us from going through the effort of donating.

I think the future of donationware may one day be bright, when it
becomes easier for everyone to safely and easily donate money to a
site, but for now people need a little bit of an encouragement to get
them to donate. We've tried to do that not just by offering some
conveniences for people who donate (which we've talked about mostly on
this thread), but also some special benefits like early access to new
software in development and by getting companies to donate software for
us to give away to members, etc.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that we are not trying to force
everyone to donate, and punish those who don't. We are just trying to
offer enough incentive that those who in their heart feel like donating
actually go through with it. That means that anyone who takes the time
to write us and say they will not be donating has already taken that
time and effort to consider the issue and express themselves. That's
all we ask for and they are welcome to the non-expiring license keys
and other benefits. Enough other people are willing to donate in order
to support the idea and make that possible.

The interesting thing, for those considering the donationware approach,
is that as we hoped, the people who donate tend not to donate $1. Some
donate $5 some donate $15 some donate $100. That just affirms what we
were hoping, that the problem with donationware in the past has been
not so much that no one wants to contribute for stuff they appreciate
and support continued development, but just that donators need to be
motivated a little and assured that the people who they are donating to
take their donation seriously, and value it. and that the donation
actually makes a difference. and we are working hard to make people
who donate proud that they did.

So I assure you that anyone who takes the time to read these posts and
consider where we are coming from and sends me an email saying they
will not be donating at this time, for whatever reason, is very welcome
to a non-expiring license for all of our programs - we are happy to do
it.


Lastly, a word to freeware authors:

I encourage any freeware developer who is considering having to move
their software from freeware to shareware in order to pay rent, or pay
hosting costs, etc. to think seriously about a donationware model. Do
*not* expect to make the kind of money you would make from shareware.
Not even remotely close. You will not make enough money to live on.
And don't expect to be able to just have a button in the corner of your
page saying "click here to donate" because that's just not going to do
it - people will not respond.

Be prepared to put in more work and effort in interacting with your
users and showing them that their donations are helping to make it
possible for you to keep working on the program, and be prepared to
swallow your pride a little, and really ask people to donate - if you
don't they won't (many of us who have worked on freeware have a
philisophical aversion to asking for money and I can tell you that I
really wish i didn't have to, and you're never going to learn to love
it like a true uber-capitalist ).

However, what is lost in money is gained in terms of having a
non-adversarial relationship with your users. Instead of having
customers who are demanding what they paid for and more, you have users
and donators who want you to succeed, and who appreciate your work. In
some ways it brings them closer to the projects and can lead to a more
rewarding experience than the mostly anonymous world of freeware.

We talk about these issues all the time on our forum (see for example
http://www.donationcoder.com/Forums/bb/index.php?topic=825.0) and i
invite any freeware authors considering this idea to join us in
discussions there, or in this newsgroup for that matter, if it's an
aceptable subject for discussion here.

-mouser