Program Information Pages

[Susan Bugher]

It's this sitation. When I am browsing those pages, I have no strong
visual indicator where I am: that is, whether I am looking at the
PL2004 programs, or at the other section, the generalized programs
list.

The title "Program Information" does not convey to me which of the two
sections I am in. (The URL is along the same path, too, as the
PL2004 program listings. This more trivial of course, as I assume
it's the web page content/titles where most people look for such cues.)

Do you know what I mean? And of course I don't mean me, specifically;
I've read the PL2004 content thoroughly enough to recognize. But am
thinking about the perspective of a casual visitor to the site. If you
know what I mean, and might agree with it...then the next part...

What to use as good visual cue to have the visitor conscious where they
are. Distinguishing between the two sections: the PL2004 winners progam
information section v the lots-of-programs information section. For a
suggestion on what might work, I don't have any suggestion in mind. But
I figure that if I could get you to take my perspective, then you'd from
there be able to come up with a fitting title design

I agree - I think an offwhite background - change/ remove most of the
color at the top -> implying visually that these are secondary pages .
.. .

The thought has been in my mind too, being slothful I haven't done
anything about it - I wanted to see if these were going to be permanent
web pages before I got involved in that . . .

It's helpful to know that you feel the same way - adding it to the todo
list . . .

Susan

 

[Sharon Page]

Are you discussing the PL2004 pages?

I guess it depends on their final appearance?
As I moved into the pages from the start page I realized
that the programs listed could get very long on some pages.
If there were muliple sub categories listed per page... a mid
page jump feature would be nice. Even if placed in random
places.

I'll add *TOP* links at the bottom of the various web pages when I have
the strength - it's a good idea. . . IMO though that's *not* play -
it's just grunt work

I know....I figured you would get the humor.
Lots of people think those little extra features just appear
like magic. I am still amazed you added the bookmark feature
as quickly as you did.

I haven't hyperlinked on the Program Info Category Index page because
that would add another layer of complexity to the process - and another
way to go wrong. . . *after* the subcategories are in good shape . . .

I mentioned it because it would give the home webpage the
same access feature you were giving to other pages being referenced.
Less worry about broken links is good too.

SLP
*****
http://www.best-page.us

 

[Susan Bugher]

Speaking of the W word.

(What was the saying? "I love work, can stare at it for hours.")

I think it's "I love work, I can *look* at it for hours." Staring
requires an *effort*, looking is more passive.

Something that might well take a lot of labor, but still to possibly put
up for consideration eventually. It's an additional Sort-By category in
the Program Information pages. Both for PL listings, and this one.

A Sort-By category for supported OS.

Mainly, it would give Linux users a way quickly locate those programs that
run on their OS.

. . .

(It would also help serve in a possible future scenario. One of these years,
it might become that some material number of the programs that make it to PL
do not run on 9x Windows, and just the later versions.)

*Already* true in a fair number of cases. Then there are those who
prefer no install, open source etc. etc. Most of that information has
already been gathered for PL2004 programs. The data would have to be
split into separate fields to have useful sorting in a table. IMO a new
web page would be needed to display it. Some work involved, but not
overwhelming. OTOH it's sometimes hard to find that kind of data for a
program - so the tables would be somewhat incomplete/ less than 100
percent accurate . . .

IIRC word search doesn't work in your PL2004 CHM file - could that be
implemented? That would be a good way to find that kind of information
easily.

Getting back to the Program Information pages . . . Your question leads
us to a more basic question: What info should be on those pages and how
is it going to get there?

IMO the primary purpose of the pages should be to provide a list of
programs that *might* be suitable for a given task. (Secondary purposes
include noting last freeware versions etc.)

ISTM that the pages should focus on basic information that does not
change rapidly.

*Further* information can be gained by a search of the ACF archives,
starting a thread to discuss which program is best, visiting the web
pages, Google searches etc. etc. etc.

To date the pages include programs I had information about. Since I'm an
info junkie - IMO it's a good *start*.

There are some gaping holes that need to be filled in - programming is a
weak area - there are many others . . .

ISTM we can use the same kind of discussions ACF has always had as a
tool to build the web pages. When a topic is under discussion
subcategories for that topic can be reviewed and revised as part of the
discussion.

From time to time people post useful lists of programs for particular
tasks - those lists can be incorporated into the web pages.

IOW I think we can *maintain* a useful set of pages without a *great*
deal of effort.

The setup *is* flexible and can grow to include more info if there is an
interest in having it. . .

Susan

 

[Susan Bugher]

I guess it depends on their final appearance?
As I moved into the pages from the start page I realized
that the programs listed could get very long on some pages.
If there were muliple sub categories listed per page... a mid
page jump feature would be nice. Even if placed in random
places.

Most of the pages have two distinct parts - the top and bottom sections
are one part - the mid section is the other. The mid section is
extracted *entirely* from the database page that contains the program
information. Adding *TOP* links in mid page would screw up the system .
.. . IOW, not a chance. . . KISS . . .

I know....I figured you would get the humor.
Lots of people think those little extra features just appear
like magic. I am still amazed you added the bookmark feature
as quickly as you did.

I have to confess I thought you were serious. Many people think of the
kind of the stuff *I* enjoy doing as pure torture - I thought maybe you
enjoyed that.

I mentioned it because it would give the home webpage the
same access feature you were giving to other pages being referenced.
Less worry about broken links is good too.

I spent some time last night revising and adding program links, author's
names etc. - ISTM that good *data* is the *primary* necessity ATM so I'm
focusing most of my effort there. . .

Susan

 

[omega]

A Sort-By category for supported OS.

[...]
IIRC word search doesn't work in your PL2004 CHM file - could that be
implemented? That would be a good way to find that kind of information
easily.

I'm not sure what you mean by word search not working? But here is a guess
for why no results would come up (has happened to me). On the lower left
corner of the Search Pane, there are checkboxes:

[ ] Search Previous Results
[ ] Match Similar Words
[ ] Search Titles Only

The PL2004.chm file is set to keep your settings from the last time you
ran it. Such as which pane at the forefront, window sizings...and also
those checkboxes. So if one of them is left checked from previous, like
Search Titles Only, it could render results nul.

Another setting perhaps to watch, it's under Options on the toolbar:
"Search Highlight Off/On." It's on by default, but if left turned off,
that could be inconvenient. When have been rendered a list of Found
Topic pages on your search, and click one, it's the highlighting of your
search terms that let you know where the hits were. You are not jumped
automatically to their locations on page; instead, it's having the
occurences highlighted as the single aid provided, and usually best
left set to On.

In PL2004, I tested a couple of (simple*) searches:

linux
os NEAR xp

The results worked all right. List of thos topic pages which contained
the occurences. Click one of the pages to have it load, and look for the
highlighted hits.

Beyond that, with the results from that search, I cannot /natively/ do
anything especially interesting. The HH feature of adding a topic page to
the favorites list does not serve use here. Basically, at this point of
having my search results rendered, I'd need to call up an external program,
to copy/paste the sections in the pages that describe the relevant programs.
In contrast to when using some of the fancy, general search utilities,
whose results lists offer features sucha as relevent extracts, and automatic
jumps to highlighted occurences.

Maybe that's adequate though? Or maybe not? The thing is, nothing within
my knowledge comes up, for whether there is anything that can be done in
compiling the CHM that might aid for making groups of results hits handier
to benefit from.

The single thing related to searches that has occurred to me, it's a
different subject. A "Find in this Topic" on the toolbar. I've seen
in it a couple of CHMs. It brings up the same "Find" dialog as when
using an IE browser. It is not in the ordinary options when compiling.
It might be an active-x control or something. I plan to rtfm, and see
if I can find out the story for such an option...


___________
(*) Simple search was all that seemed applicable here; but on a general
note, about the HH viewer's Search, I want to mention that it does
Boolean (AND OR NEAR NOT), and wildcard, and nested expression.

MSFT's document on using the HH viewer
http://www.mailandfiles.com/users/omega/Viewhlp.chm (58k)

 

[omega]

[re searching the CHM]

Beyond that, with the results from that search, I cannot /natively/ do
anything especially interesting. The HH feature of adding a topic page to
the favorites list does not serve use here. Basically, at this point of
having my search results rendered, I'd need to call up an external program,
to copy/paste the sections in the pages that describe the relevant programs.

Thinking about it. I just got a seed of a possible thought. That I create
a set of .htms, one per program. That I do not list them from the Contents
pane anywhere (and maybe/maybe not in the Index pane). So they would reside
basically hidden, and come up specifically as a result of certain kinds of
searches.

The user would then be able, from Search Results, to add any of those
individual program .htm's to their Favorites panel in the CHM.

Just a seed of thought. A main issue for deciding such a plan, I'd have
to look into some way, some tool, to have these created with at least some
degree of reasonable automations.




.. . .
Also, if implemented. It would likely be into the larger PL.chm file. When
it is eventually rebuilt (I plan to do a rebuild largely from scratch, when
the time comes). The reason not into PL2004.chm is because what I want from
this latter, above all else, is the highest simplicity of streamlined steps.
Such that it is most easily synched from pricelessware.org content (by me,
or by anyone who might one day adopt the activity).

 

[omega]

I think it's "I love work, I can *look* at it for hours." Staring
requires an *effort*, looking is more passive.

Of course! I'd sensed something was essentially off in how I was
remembering the saying. Even merely reading that word "stare" was
giving me an uncomfortable sensation of exertion.

[...]

*Already* true in a fair number of cases. Then there are those who
prefer no install, open source etc. etc. Most of that information has
already been gathered for PL2004 programs. The data would have to be
split into separate fields to have useful sorting in a table. IMO a new
web page would be needed to display it. Some work involved, but not
overwhelming. OTOH it's sometimes hard to find that kind of data for a
program - so the tables would be somewhat incomplete/ less than 100
percent accurate . . .

I consider the data available in a fairly solid way when it's a case
of whether a program has incarnations for Linux in addition to Windows.
In fact, the primary reason this particular Sort-By column struck me as
useful was to provide a small compromise for those who have requested
the large thing: a special Linux section.

It's the case of something like compatibility in 9x v NT generation where
incompleteness is inevitable. Often a developer simply hasn't tested on
both systems. In many cases works fine on both; but of course in many other
cases, nope. So for that level of OS sorting, the column would, yes, have
incompleteness issues.

Your question leads us to a more basic question: What info should be on
those pages and how is it going to get there?

The most important stage of things is formulating the question, as you
have done. I'm mainly going to leave the question there, as is, at this
moment. Responding well takes fair contemplation.

IMO the primary purpose of the pages should be to provide a list of
programs that *might* be suitable for a given task. (Secondary purposes
include noting last freeware versions etc.)

ISTM that the pages should focus on basic information that does not
change rapidly.
Agree.

*Further* information can be gained by a search of the ACF archives,
starting a thread to discuss which program is best, visiting the web
pages, Google searches etc. etc. etc.

Ah, I'm going to go ahead and say one thing, impulsively.

When we are on the web and looking into a program that might interest us,
what is usually the most immediate thing that we crave... It is to see
/what it looks like/. A screenshot might not be worth a thousand words,
but it is worth at least a hundred.

Sure, we can sometimes find screenshots once we go visit homepages. But
then again, that's sometimes many extra steps. And a feature we really
appreciate in a freeware archive, it's a handy way to access screenshots
for the programs listed.

The Q again...

What info should be on those pages and how is it going to get there?

So, my statement "screenshots are neat," it needs to consider the important
factor of "how is that going to get there." I'm not proposing building a
mountain, ie local database of screenshots. Instead, more conservative. I
wonder whether it could be feasible to have some efforts contributed towards
providing an external screenshot link for each program ?

To date the pages include programs I had information about. Since I'm an
info junkie - IMO it's a good *start*.

There are some gaping holes that need to be filled in - programming is a
weak area - there are many others . . .

ISTM we can use the same kind of discussions ACF has always had as a
tool to build the web pages. When a topic is under discussion
subcategories for that topic can be reviewed and revised as part of the
discussion.

From time to time people post useful lists of programs for particular
tasks - those lists can be incorporated into the web pages.

I've saved many of those extra-useful posts that have passed through ACF.
Yet my imagination is too limited, as to how they would translate easily
into web content. For example, they rarely operate standalone, and instead
read better with a few other messages in their thread. Nor can I envision
well how you might get a trend started, for getting people to make an
occasional special effort to post content that could work in a standalone
way on the web (a slightly different matter than usenet conversation)...

Current limits of my own imaginings aside, I trust that you will soon
develop good ways to inspire contributions into this project....

IOW I think we can *maintain* a useful set of pages without a *great*
deal of effort.

The setup *is* flexible and can grow to include more info if there is an
interest in having it. . .

Count me as having strong interest. Dwell on the possible forms it can take,
and then I'm near inclined to even use the word - exciting.

 

[omega]

Then there are those who prefer no install, open source etc. etc.

Hey, look what I found!

http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/programs/P_SYSTEMUTILITIES.php?sortby=n.i.

I am pleased to see that one there, the column for no-installs.


.. . .

Speculating into abstract future...I'd like if we could develop a special
page listing exclusively "environamentally green" programs. The no-install,
no registry, no files outside its directory. I don't mean this as a column
on the program page, since it would be too much to check every program
against that criteria. Instead a separate page made up of a dynamically
accumulated list of those programs confirmed to merit that status.

 

[David Simpson]

I think it's "I love work, I can *look* at it for hours." Staring
requires an *effort*, looking is more passive.

Try: "Work fascinates me. I can sit and watch it for hours."

I was impressed by the site and I will be back.

In regard to the "Top" button dilemma simply add the code for the
button at the end of the code that fetches the data from the database.
By doing that, each time the code does a fetch, it auto magically
places a button just after the information for a program. If you fetch
three pieces of information you get three "Top" buttons. If you are
using CSS it should not be all that difficult or time consuming. One
piece of code should fix all your pages. If not you'll need to use
lots of "paste" commands. Best of luck.

 

[Susan Bugher]

Also, if implemented. It would likely be into the larger PL.chm file. When
it is eventually rebuilt (I plan to do a rebuild largely from scratch, when
the time comes). The reason not into PL2004.chm is because what I want from
this latter, above all else, is the highest simplicity of streamlined steps.
Such that it is most easily synched from pricelessware.org content (by me,
or by anyone who might one day adopt the activity).

I just uploaded PL2004 pages - a few program updates. We should probably
talk a little bit about coordination. Do you want me to post to ACF
every time I make an update?

Do you want to email your updated CHM files to me for uploading or would
you rather upload them somewhere else where I can grab them?

Susan

 

[Susan Bugher]

Hey, look what I found!

http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/programs/P_SYSTEMUTILITIES.php?sortby=n.i.

I am pleased to see that one there, the column for no-installs.

Speculating into abstract future...I'd like if we could develop a special
page listing exclusively "environamentally green" programs. The no-install,
no registry, no files outside its directory. I don't mean this as a column
on the program page, since it would be too much to check every program
against that criteria. Instead a separate page made up of a dynamically
accumulated list of those programs confirmed to merit that status.

IMO it would work better to juat add that to the program info pages - I
could use the n.i. column (n.i.-n.r. or whatever for those programs). If
someone posts a list I can add/update the info.

Susan

 

[Susan Bugher]

I was impressed by the site and I will be back.

good to hear

In regard to the "Top" button dilemma simply add the code for the
button at the end of the code that fetches the data from the database.
By doing that, each time the code does a fetch, it auto magically
places a button just after the information for a program. If you fetch
three pieces of information you get three "Top" buttons. If you are
using CSS it should not be all that difficult or time consuming. One
piece of code should fix all your pages. If not you'll need to use
lots of "paste" commands. Best of luck.

No CSS but I *could* add "top" to *every* program description fairly
easily - it's difficult to add just a *few* - at intervals . . .

and. . .

There are Anti "top" button and Pro "top" button opinions - soooooo -
I'll add *one* "top" button at the bottom of the pages and hope that
everyone is reasonably happy with the compromise.

Susan

 

[Susan Bugher]

Susan Bugher <[email protected]>:

Count me as having strong interest. Dwell on the possible forms it can take,
and then I'm near inclined to even use the word - exciting.

I think the process can work in much same way as the Freeware Wish List
works - by requests to add info. For example:

http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/programs/P_TEXT.php

has a list of text editors. If someone reviews the page and doesn't find
a particular editor they can ask to have it added.

Second example, see a recent thread: Looking forprg to compare two text
files

A list of programs for that task was created during the discussion -
those programs have been listed in a subcategory on the text page.

Threads like that are useful now. If participants review the existing
data on the Program Info pages the threads will be even more useful.

Adding info that goes *beyond* the lists of programs can be done by
adding links to a subcategory. The Multi-Media page *has* a link to
dadiOH's dandies. The Text Editor subcategory will soon have a link to
the Text Editor Review page.

Information about each program can be added by linking the program to a
web page. I'll add the descriptions of programs shown on the PL2004
nominations pages as examples (soon).

Much information *could* be added to the categories or subcategories by
linking to pages on the Pricelessware site or elsewhere. Comparisons,
features, cross-references etc. etc. etc. IMO the Program Information
pages can "grow" in any direction the group wishes to take.

HTH

Susan

 

[David Simpson]

good to hear


No CSS but I *could* add "top" to *every* program description fairly
easily - it's difficult to add just a *few* - at intervals . . .

and. . .

There are Anti "top" button and Pro "top" button opinions - soooooo -
I'll add *one* "top" button at the bottom of the pages and hope that
everyone is reasonably happy with the compromise.

Susan

I. personally, rarely use "top" buttons so I have no real opinion.

Perhaps you should investigate CSS as It would, in my humble opinion,
make your job easier as you would only have to design your page once.
Adding extra details then becomes easy.

 

[Susan Bugher]

http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/programs/P_CategoryIndex.php

I've "borrowed" the Category Index page (above URL) temporarily to try a
..PHP Alphabetical List page.

The "old" alphabetial page is here:

http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/programs/P_AlphabeticalList.htm

Please take a look at both and tell me which you prefer.

Susan

 

[Bjorn Simonsen]

http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/programs/P_AlphabeticalList.htm
Please take a look at both and tell me which you prefer.

PHP, very nice. Would prefer change of order, to :
PROG. - CAT. -URL - AUTH.
or maybe :
CAT. - PROG. -URL - AUTH.

Either way will make it easier to navigate/browse/search IMHO.

All the best,
Bjorn Simonsen

 

[omega]

I just uploaded PL2004 pages - a few program updates. We should probably
talk a little bit about coordination. Do you want me to post to ACF
every time I make an update?

I'd sort of had the notion of having Httrack do its query for updates approx
once a week. Do you think that the PL2004.chm should be more timely than that,
for reflecting updates at the site?

Do you want to email your updated CHM files to me for uploading or would
you rather upload them somewhere else where I can grab them?

Seems it makes more sense that I send to an email address of yours. Only,
I first have to get around to using email again (I quit a couple years ago,
strange as that sounds). So until I normalize to SMTP instead of FTP, will
you bear with me?

I ran an update mirror tonight (04 March).
For transfer to your server:
http://www.mailandfiles.com/users/omega/PL2004.chm

 

[Bjorn Simonsen]

http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/programs/P_CategoryIndex.php

Don't know if possible, but would be nice when sorting on column -
like by Author, if "something" comes before nothing. So that one does
not have to scroll past the many empty cells (assuming there will
always be some) to get the Author list when sorted by Author.

All the best,

 

[omega]

PHP, very nice.

Yes, totally the winner: P_CategoryIndex.php

Would prefer change of order, to :
PROG. - CAT. -URL - AUTH.
or maybe :
CAT. - PROG. -URL - AUTH.

Either way will make it easier to navigate/browse/search IMHO.

My pref would be close to the above, but with URL at the end. CAT PROG &
AUTH are all what I'd sort by; where URL would be an action I'd take.

 

[Sharon Page]

I've "borrowed" the Category Index page (above URL) temporarily to try a
.PHP Alphabetical List page.

I prefer the one above... I like the neat looking data/table format.

SLP
******
http://www.best-page.us