J
Justin
Lang Murphy said:
1. You should read all posts:
Justin said:
2. kirk and I have had a perfectly normal conversation today.
1. You should read all posts:
2. kirk and I have had a perfectly normal conversation today.
S
Shane Nokes
Why would you want to shop for a Media Access Controller?
BTW yes I realize that he meant Mac, but still if he's going to troll he
should do it properly.
BTW yes I realize that he meant Mac, but still if he's going to troll he
should do it properly.
J
john
Justin said:
800 apps? what a freakin flat out lie.
I've said here many times before. Microsoft released TWO Vista-Compatible
Logo Lists (for software compatibility)
(http://support.microsoft.com/kb/933305)
There's the "Certified for Windows Vista" List, then there's the "Works with
Windows Vista" List.
(Hats off to the boys in marketing.)
The first one, the "certified" list says the listed apps will work in Vista,
while the second only IMPLIES that it might.
The certified list only contains about 100 apps, a quarter of which are MS's
own.
Why is it that this NG is FILLED with people posting problems they're having
with a good portion of their already owned software, while you OTOH are
havng no problems whatsoever?
miraculous...
hilarious...
J
john
Justin said:
ah that's ok, in your defense I'd be a little grumpy too is I had to take a
butt-kickin every day on school.
that atomic wedgie in front of all the girls must really suck too huh?
(i'm eagerly awaiting 3PM and your reply ... you know, when school's out)
H
HEMI-Powered
Today, Justin made these interesting comments ...
Yes, indeedy! In the final analysis, buyers are ALWAYS
responsible for what happens to them when they buy somthing new,
so long as the seller isn't negligent in some way and/or has not
provided the information necessary to make an informed decisions.
I don't think that MS or any major SW developer is negligent, but
I also DON'T think they at all provide clear, understandable
information as to new features, REAL system requirements, and
KNOWN incompatibilities, as MS did for XP SP2. No one is going to
cite bugs, period. But, giving upgraders or them buying a new PC
intending to use old HW at home or legacy SW MUST be told whether
the new whiz bang will or won't work.
Funny you should ask. I thought I was 6'4" tall, maybe having
lost about 1/2" just due to my spine compressing from age. Not!
Had a nurse check me Moday. 6'2" tall. As to the Caliber, yes, I
feel headroom is marginal. Let me clarify that a bit and ask you
a question. In a Caliber, even an R/T, while I may feel a bit
tight, I am OK. But, the ones I've sat in that had a sunroof
where too tight, I could feel my hair rub the headliner. Now, if
you like that kind of vehicle and can stand a Jeep look, try the
Jeep Compass. It is 5" shorter than a Caliber, which has a longer
WB for more rear leg room, but is 5" taller.
The Caliber really isn't an upgrade for a Neon, although if one
had a Neon they'd surely like the Caliber better. It is a compact
SUV, in otherwords, a small station wagon, which is all the rage
right now. All the major world's brands either have one or will
soon. The Caliber is about as all-new and all-different from a
Neon as a car can possibly be. I think from my previous episples
you can gather the gist of that. Chrysler decided it could not be
competitive against the likes of the Honda Civic at a profit, and
went in a different direction, allowing two unique cars to be
given to it's presumeably high-volume marques.
Whether the Caliber is or is not a horrible car goes exactly to
what folks expect it to be. It would be horrible car to me if I
felt it really didn't have enough headroom, as my hair touching
would annoy the hell outta me very quickly. Likewise, if it
couldn't carry people comfortably in the rear seat, it might be
unacceptable, ditto for performance, fuel economy, features, all
the quantitative and qualitative stuff. But, just like you
observe wrt Vista, if you look, read, and test drive BEFORE you
buy a car - any car - you are FAR less likely to be a disgruntled
driver than if you use the follow the herd mentality.
Exacta mundo! And, back to cars, my definition of "exiting" isn't
what most people use, that the car performs and handles
exceptionally. That certainly CAN be the def, and is for a
Charger HEMI, but I feel it is much broader than that. So, my def
is an exciting car is ANY genre from ANY manufacturer that EXEEDS
the buyer's expectations. Could be all the way from an econobox
to a luxo barge to a high-performance coupe to a huge F-350
dually.
1) How easy or hard is it really to wrench a refund out of MS? I
know you can't get one from your local store, if the shrink wrap
is open, no refund. But, who pays for weeks or months of anger,
frustration, and many hours of trying to beat it into submission
- if that, in fact is your experience?
Yes, indeedy! In the final analysis, buyers are ALWAYS
responsible for what happens to them when they buy somthing new,
so long as the seller isn't negligent in some way and/or has not
provided the information necessary to make an informed decisions.
I don't think that MS or any major SW developer is negligent, but
I also DON'T think they at all provide clear, understandable
information as to new features, REAL system requirements, and
KNOWN incompatibilities, as MS did for XP SP2. No one is going to
cite bugs, period. But, giving upgraders or them buying a new PC
intending to use old HW at home or legacy SW MUST be told whether
the new whiz bang will or won't work.
Funny you should ask. I thought I was 6'4" tall, maybe having
lost about 1/2" just due to my spine compressing from age. Not!
Had a nurse check me Moday. 6'2" tall. As to the Caliber, yes, I
feel headroom is marginal. Let me clarify that a bit and ask you
a question. In a Caliber, even an R/T, while I may feel a bit
tight, I am OK. But, the ones I've sat in that had a sunroof
where too tight, I could feel my hair rub the headliner. Now, if
you like that kind of vehicle and can stand a Jeep look, try the
Jeep Compass. It is 5" shorter than a Caliber, which has a longer
WB for more rear leg room, but is 5" taller.
The Caliber really isn't an upgrade for a Neon, although if one
had a Neon they'd surely like the Caliber better. It is a compact
SUV, in otherwords, a small station wagon, which is all the rage
right now. All the major world's brands either have one or will
soon. The Caliber is about as all-new and all-different from a
Neon as a car can possibly be. I think from my previous episples
you can gather the gist of that. Chrysler decided it could not be
competitive against the likes of the Honda Civic at a profit, and
went in a different direction, allowing two unique cars to be
given to it's presumeably high-volume marques.
Whether the Caliber is or is not a horrible car goes exactly to
what folks expect it to be. It would be horrible car to me if I
felt it really didn't have enough headroom, as my hair touching
would annoy the hell outta me very quickly. Likewise, if it
couldn't carry people comfortably in the rear seat, it might be
unacceptable, ditto for performance, fuel economy, features, all
the quantitative and qualitative stuff. But, just like you
observe wrt Vista, if you look, read, and test drive BEFORE you
buy a car - any car - you are FAR less likely to be a disgruntled
driver than if you use the follow the herd mentality.
Exacta mundo! And, back to cars, my definition of "exiting" isn't
what most people use, that the car performs and handles
exceptionally. That certainly CAN be the def, and is for a
Charger HEMI, but I feel it is much broader than that. So, my def
is an exciting car is ANY genre from ANY manufacturer that EXEEDS
the buyer's expectations. Could be all the way from an econobox
to a luxo barge to a high-performance coupe to a huge F-350
dually.
1) How easy or hard is it really to wrench a refund out of MS? I
know you can't get one from your local store, if the shrink wrap
is open, no refund. But, who pays for weeks or months of anger,
frustration, and many hours of trying to beat it into submission
- if that, in fact is your experience?
H
Harry Krause
john said:
I have no idea what is on the "certified list." I've had no problems
installing about 40 software programs from my previous XP-based desktop.
A couple of smaller programs presented me with minor glitches, but I was
able to figure out work-arounds.
The only MS application I use is MS WORD.
To date, I've not found VISTA any more recalcitrant in installing
software than previous Windows iterations.
M
mikeyhsd
if you have such a HIGH class system, why didn't you check before installing vista to make sure things would work.
I am not excusing vista, but you are to blame for not doing your home work.
I know for sure, if I had that much money invested in computer hardware I sure would.
(e-mail address removed)@sport.rr.com
ok, I was thrilled when I was able to install and use VISTA last year (you
know the RC1 version) the OS worked great, I noticed the difference in
everything, and to my surprise everything except NERO worked. Then came
BLACK JANUARY. The day that the public commercial official release of vista
came to being. That was the day that the commercial from MAC joked about the
upgrade failing and PC leaving all his perrephials to MAC.
That was also the day I went out and bought my Home Premium version, only
cost me 300$ (this is important, keep track of the dollar figures as they
rise) That was also the day that even after upgrading my drivers, my 800$
sound card had it's purpose in life changed to a somewhat large ninja
throwing star, as the only sound it plays is the annoying windows start-up
jingle, then it won't work with media player and sometimes will work for
about 5 minutes with media center. (if I restart my computer and touch
nothing else) My 2 x 450$ video cards well what can I say, video suchs.
so here I sit with a external sound controller with will probably end up
being a coaster for my dogs dish, sound card as well as video cards becoming
ninja stars, and extremely disappointed with the improvements that were made
from the RC1 release to the run out and buy release. I am pretty sure I
didn't suggest making the system so that everything I did, every program I
opened (windows programs as well) had to be opened as an administrator, ohh
and I also had to click allow cause you never know I might not want Media
center to run, as I couldn't be sure of the originator.
My 4 gb of ram, 3gb processor, multi LCD SCREENS all look nice, and I can
remember the day they all worked fine. So here I must ask the simplist of
questions; can you uninstall VISTA and go back to XP without losing
everything, or is it now time to accept defeat and start shopping for a MAC??
I am not excusing vista, but you are to blame for not doing your home work.
I know for sure, if I had that much money invested in computer hardware I sure would.
(e-mail address removed)@sport.rr.com
ok, I was thrilled when I was able to install and use VISTA last year (you
know the RC1 version) the OS worked great, I noticed the difference in
everything, and to my surprise everything except NERO worked. Then came
BLACK JANUARY. The day that the public commercial official release of vista
came to being. That was the day that the commercial from MAC joked about the
upgrade failing and PC leaving all his perrephials to MAC.
That was also the day I went out and bought my Home Premium version, only
cost me 300$ (this is important, keep track of the dollar figures as they
rise) That was also the day that even after upgrading my drivers, my 800$
sound card had it's purpose in life changed to a somewhat large ninja
throwing star, as the only sound it plays is the annoying windows start-up
jingle, then it won't work with media player and sometimes will work for
about 5 minutes with media center. (if I restart my computer and touch
nothing else) My 2 x 450$ video cards well what can I say, video suchs.
so here I sit with a external sound controller with will probably end up
being a coaster for my dogs dish, sound card as well as video cards becoming
ninja stars, and extremely disappointed with the improvements that were made
from the RC1 release to the run out and buy release. I am pretty sure I
didn't suggest making the system so that everything I did, every program I
opened (windows programs as well) had to be opened as an administrator, ohh
and I also had to click allow cause you never know I might not want Media
center to run, as I couldn't be sure of the originator.
My 4 gb of ram, 3gb processor, multi LCD SCREENS all look nice, and I can
remember the day they all worked fine. So here I must ask the simplist of
questions; can you uninstall VISTA and go back to XP without losing
everything, or is it now time to accept defeat and start shopping for a MAC??
E
Eric
Did you attempt to install XP the day it came out, or less than 2 monthsHEMI-Powered said:
later?
I suspect most people had little or no problems installing XP, but at least
some people had a ton of problems installing it within the first couple
months.
Vista has been officially out for less than 2 months. I suspect some
people, if not most, are having few or no problems with Vista. Some people
are having a lot of problems, which I suspect will be fixed in the next few
months.
Service Packs may include updated drivers. To get your system running as
well as it can, it is best to install all Windows updates, then to go to the
web site of the manufacturer of each piece of hardware in your PC and look
for current drivers. If your manufacturer does not have a working driver
for your video/sound card, that's their problem, not Microsoft's. If a
driver is not available because your hardware is too old, you need to
upgrade hardware if you want the latest OS. If you have new hardware and a
working driver is not available, call the manufacturer of that hardware and
ask, and I think the XP dual boot suggestion is a good idea until you have
Vista working properly.
For a novice user that buys a system at Best Buy with Vista already
installed, it should include hardware and drivers that already work. If
they installed it for you on hardware that does not have drivers, they
should fix that for you. If the drivers were available after purchase, they
should be able to explain to anyone how to update or let you bring it to the
store and update it for you.
It is no surprise that XP drivers don't work for Vista if they changed the
Vista architechture.
If you replace your old manual car with a new automatic one, chances are
your old wiper blades will work, but your old gear shifter will not go in
the new vehicle.
New GUI is good if it is well designed. It has to be intuitive and
functional. I haven't seen the GUI changes in Vista, but I don't think they
accomplished that. I think everyone has gotten used to the Start Bar idea
now. I hear Vista kept the Start Bar and removed the word Start. I think
that is a bad idea. As much as we like to joke that clicking Start to shut
down makes no sense, it makes less sense to click the Start Bar when it
doesn't say Start on it. Now they're just figuring out what to call Prince.
H
HEMI-Powered
Today, Eric made these interesting comments ...
I waited about a year for XP, when I bought a hotter PC. And,
while I went immediately to SP1, I waited about 15 months for
SP2, again when buying a new PC. My wife has my old XP Pro SP1
box, I've got SP2. So, in keeping with my basic philosphy of not
beta testing with my Visa card nor frustrating myself, I wait -
for a LONG time. I also believe firmly that, for me, a PC is
something to do useful work with, and not a hobbiest toy as
computers were when I wore the clothes of a younger man.
Can't comment. I had relatively few problems, but did have some,
the usual kind such as networking, legacy SW and HW and the like,
but they were resolved relatively quickly. Both XP installs were
clean, as I also do not believe in trying to upgrade over the top
of a previous version. If I really wanted to do that, say on my
current PC, I would bite the bullet and do a full nuke and
install of Vista, but for me, it is maybe a year out as is a new
PC with dual- and quad-core processors are more price effective.
I would speculate that first time buyers with no old SW or HW are
doing just fine. Those who do have legacy apps and legacy HW are
probably struggling, if I can believe what I read here and in
other NGs. There is no such thing as a free lunch here, but
again, I also don't believe in giving Murphy an even break. So,
if anyone asks me, I first qualify them as needing Vista for some
good reason or simply thinking they must have it or die from some
Yes, and I picked up several with XP SP1 but needed to go to
manufacturer web sites for others. And, I needed some newer
version utilities for SP2, which I consider normal.
That's what I'm trying to say to what you're replying to and a
clarification above.
That's correct, in the general case. But, to the extent that
claims of improved security being the cause of all-new
architecture, I'd have to ask MS what they hell they were doing
by intentionally obsoleting their entire installed base,
especially since their record of superior security is sad at
best.
not if - I go to Vista I'll need to go with the flow and learn
something new. That isn't necessarily bad and is usually go,
abeit the learning curve for us old dogs can be steep.
Thanks for your comments.
I waited about a year for XP, when I bought a hotter PC. And,
while I went immediately to SP1, I waited about 15 months for
SP2, again when buying a new PC. My wife has my old XP Pro SP1
box, I've got SP2. So, in keeping with my basic philosphy of not
beta testing with my Visa card nor frustrating myself, I wait -
for a LONG time. I also believe firmly that, for me, a PC is
something to do useful work with, and not a hobbiest toy as
computers were when I wore the clothes of a younger man.
Can't comment. I had relatively few problems, but did have some,
the usual kind such as networking, legacy SW and HW and the like,
but they were resolved relatively quickly. Both XP installs were
clean, as I also do not believe in trying to upgrade over the top
of a previous version. If I really wanted to do that, say on my
current PC, I would bite the bullet and do a full nuke and
install of Vista, but for me, it is maybe a year out as is a new
PC with dual- and quad-core processors are more price effective.
I would speculate that first time buyers with no old SW or HW are
doing just fine. Those who do have legacy apps and legacy HW are
probably struggling, if I can believe what I read here and in
other NGs. There is no such thing as a free lunch here, but
again, I also don't believe in giving Murphy an even break. So,
if anyone asks me, I first qualify them as needing Vista for some
good reason or simply thinking they must have it or die from some
gruesome disease. The latter is never true. said:
Yes, and I picked up several with XP SP1 but needed to go to
manufacturer web sites for others. And, I needed some newer
version utilities for SP2, which I consider normal.
That's what I'm trying to say to what you're replying to and a
clarification above.
That's correct, in the general case. But, to the extent that
claims of improved security being the cause of all-new
architecture, I'd have to ask MS what they hell they were doing
by intentionally obsoleting their entire installed base,
especially since their record of superior security is sad at
best.
I'm a Luddite on this stuff so I run Classic on XP, but when -
not if - I go to Vista I'll need to go with the flow and learn
something new. That isn't necessarily bad and is usually go,
abeit the learning curve for us old dogs can be steep.
Thanks for your comments.
J
Justin
HEMI-Powered said:
I guess you have to weigh your options. For example, do you want drivers to
be more compatible from a dying architecture or do you want the new
possibility of a rogue driver not brining down the whole system? Could
there have been a way to give us both? Beats me. However, I'd rather have
less system dependant drivers.
J
Justin
Ok, "horrible" is subjective. Let me change it to the average comment here,
"doesn't work piece of crap."
Who pays? The now "responsible" consumer who is "more aware of their
actions."
There is no price tag for that lesson! Hehehe.It's a piece of cake:
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/productrefund/refund.asp
All retail products have a 45 day guarantee. Except the xbox and zune.
H
HEMI-Powered
Today, Justin made these interesting comments ...
skeptical, though, of claims that it was security that drove the
obsolescence of XP drivers. It may well be true and may
eventually prove to be the correct decision, but in my view, it
is NEVER a good idea for ANY company to intentionally piss off
its entire set of current customers with a new whiz bang that
causes them pain in the wallet. I don't know, but maybe for some,
Vista may backfire and drive some folks to either Macs or Linux,
although both involve their own financial and learning curve
pain.
As to a dying architecture, that's like saying that 100 or 200
year-old houses should be torn down. There are plenty of folks
still running 95, 98 and ME and happily doing what they think
they want/need to do, and have no plans to upgrade anytime soon.
That may in fact be bad for them for any number of reasons, but
millions of people do not believe that their life revolves around
new anything. I just talked to a server at one of our fav
restaurants who says she and her husband stopped buying new cars
years ago. Their rationale? Let somebody else take the
depreciation hit. So, they miss out on current styling, features,
safety, and maybe fuel economy, but that's how they choose to
spend their budget, and budgets are always a zero-sum game.
But, if you really want to have system independent drivers, than
you have to compromise the ideals you speak of earlier in this
note. You can't have both, in my view, life is a matter of
compromize.
Again, I make no value judgements, at least not yet. I am
skeptical, though, of claims that it was security that drove the
obsolescence of XP drivers. It may well be true and may
eventually prove to be the correct decision, but in my view, it
is NEVER a good idea for ANY company to intentionally piss off
its entire set of current customers with a new whiz bang that
causes them pain in the wallet. I don't know, but maybe for some,
Vista may backfire and drive some folks to either Macs or Linux,
although both involve their own financial and learning curve
pain.
As to a dying architecture, that's like saying that 100 or 200
year-old houses should be torn down. There are plenty of folks
still running 95, 98 and ME and happily doing what they think
they want/need to do, and have no plans to upgrade anytime soon.
That may in fact be bad for them for any number of reasons, but
millions of people do not believe that their life revolves around
new anything. I just talked to a server at one of our fav
restaurants who says she and her husband stopped buying new cars
years ago. Their rationale? Let somebody else take the
depreciation hit. So, they miss out on current styling, features,
safety, and maybe fuel economy, but that's how they choose to
spend their budget, and budgets are always a zero-sum game.
But, if you really want to have system independent drivers, than
you have to compromise the ideals you speak of earlier in this
note. You can't have both, in my view, life is a matter of
compromize.
J
Justin
john said:
It doesn't have to be certified to work. The software I've developed is not
certified but it works just fine.
Use other resources as well:
http://www.iexbeta.com/wiki/index.php/Windows_Vista_Software_Compatibility_List
Simple, of the 300+ machines I have at work, I took the top 5 that had Vista
drivers. My machine at home, all had Vista drivers except the 8800GTX until
release date and the X-Fi until the 8th of march (but I didn't find them
until later).
See how simple that was! If you don't have drivers yet then DO NOT upgrade.
If you do, then upgrade (or install, whatever).
Myself, I installed (well, I have many drives) Vista and just DEALT with the
fact that decent video was a no go for a couple days and have had no sound
up until recently. I don't come here and spam or troll about Vista being a
POS because I have no sound and how dare they release a product that is not
ready.....it's all garbage. Why do I think that? Because now I have sound!
I tell people to wait for drivers because IT WORKS and it's sound advice.
Telling people to wait an arbitrary amount of time such as SP1 or SP2 is
ridiculous! If drivers are out long before then, then upgrade sooner. It's
going to be a LONG TIME before SP1 is released.
J
Justin
john said:
Where do you ASSume I am? Now you're just trolling. Have fun with that!
N
Nina DiBoy
Justin wrote:
I update my linux server machines and workstations regularly. All OSes
need security, not just Windows (although Windows probably needs it most
of all).
--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html
Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"DRM is not added to anything in Vista."
"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot
I update my linux server machines and workstations regularly. All OSes
need security, not just Windows (although Windows probably needs it most
of all).
--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html
Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"DRM is not added to anything in Vista."
"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot
J
Justin
HEMI-Powered said:
Go back to cars ;p
They would be a minority. We're talking about technology. Anything 10+
years old is dead or dying. While XP is stable for the most part, it's a
dead end. There is no where to go with it. They made very bad choices
while designing it and there are no ways to go around it. It wasn't
necessarily bad at the time although some would disagree. More of a
hindsight issue.
We have one 98 machine because of an old BiSync modem we need to support.
That's the only reason. BiSync data communications is a dying technology.
Thankfully Target is finally getting rid of it. They are the sole purpose
we kept that machine.
This is the weigh your options issue again. I'd rather have a warranty!
100,000 miles of it.
J
Justin
Nina DiBoy said:
I take it you missed the sarcasm.
P
Plato
=?Utf-8?B?QmFybmV5SA==?= said:
Since you are smart enough to use USEnet, then why did you ignore the
basic rules of OS upgrades?
E
Eric
If they call Vista the Wow and it's mostly the same GUI, what will they callkirk jim said:When I say gui I dont mean the theme.. I will explain in that video....
it when they come out with a real GUI (VR interface)?
J
Justin
Eric said:
Mostly the same? Not even close.