You've got to be kidding me....

[Saran]

I'll support anyone and anything whose goals are to make the
technology we use everyday (and take for granted) more accessible to
everyone.

As will I.

IBM was the monolith computer supplier in the 60's to 70s, correct?
Are they not the ones who laughed at Bill Gates and company for their
dream of having a computer in every home?

And where did that get them? Their flagship operating system OS/2 has
been relegated to the anals of history for all but the nostalgic, and
no-one uses an IBM-branded computer anymore.

OS/2 being an OS Microsoft also helped make...

And the problem with articles that you dutifully relay to us is this -
the information provided cannot be verified as being accurate.

The way I saw it is that the article is just a reiteration of some very
well know facts about Vista, ones that certainally don't make the front
page and for good reason, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Chances are that tripe the article tries to make us believe about DRM
was inspired by some fool who tried to illegally copy a movie, and got
himself caught in a roadblock.

The fact is the DRM is becoming ever the more harmful and restrictive,
while doing nothing to actually stop piracy, and instead they find
themselves paying for music, movies, software, and Vista, and end up
being treated like *THEY* are the criminal.

This is one very good reason piracy has been on the rise.

 

[Saran]

True, but what happened when Microsft pulled out of the OS/2 project.

Yes, that was IBM's loss.

Not to discredit anyting you've said, but the only real facts are that
some of these "very well known facts" are nothing more than hot air
being spouted by people who are seeking attention by improperly
echoing hearsay.

I'm sorry, but the DRM issue in Vista is very real. The "restricting
what you can do on your own computer" issue is very real.

This is but one source.
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

There are many other sources on the topic. Do a little home work and you
will find out just how real these issues are. Such as the so called
"kill switch", which ended up being removed or so we were told, to MS's
credit - this most likely resulting in the many distrupted systems out
there. It was a good move to remove it but alas is but the tip of the
ice berg.

 

[DP]

Their flagship operating system OS/2 has
been relegated to the anals of history for all but the nostalgic, and
no-one uses an IBM-branded computer anymore.

That should be ANNALS of history.
Wait.
Ummm....
No. You may be correct.

 

[DanS]

Microsoft was forced to include it as part of Vista because they where
threatened with another anti-trust lawsuit.

I just want to say, this part of the thread was a refreshing change from
what is typically seen around here.

Intelligent people carrying on an intelligent discussion, with points and
counterpoints, and actually discussing a topic logically. The posts were
*not* just blindly top-posted, had irrelevant text snipped, the
discussion was easy to follow, and I didn't see the the word 'idiot' used
once. (Or any other personally-derogatory comments.)

WTF is wrong with you people ?!?!?!?!? (Just kidding!!)

This is how it *should* be.

Unfortunately, some of you out there are so wrapped up in your own
feelings of superiority, righteousness, and holier-than-thou attitudes
that they can't even comprehend that other people's opinions *can be* as
valid as their own. Or realize that others *do* have the right to
disagree with them, and that just because someone holds the "wrong"
opinion, that does not necessarily mean they have a hidden personal
agenda to carry out against the world.

 

[the wharf rat]

playback. The degradation results from when you attempt to hijack the HD
signal betwen the source (PC, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray players, etc) and
destination (LCD Display). It is designed to prevent a picture-perfect
signal from being intercepted and copied (pirated).

No, DRM is triggered when it becomes POSSIBLE to hijack the
signal, i.e., the entire hardware path is not encrypted and certified.
It assumes criminal intent.

Microsoft
was forced to include it as part of Vista because they where threatened
with another anti-trust lawsuit.

Cite please?

 

[the wharf rat]

That should be ANNALS of history.
Wait.
Ummm....
No. You may be correct.

OS/2 was (and in fact is) far more advanced than Windows in
many ways such as in memory management and multi-tasking. It hasn't
entire;ly disappeared, either. You still see it in certain embedded
systems and on the odd workstation.

 

[Saran]

No, DRM is triggered when it becomes POSSIBLE to hijack the
signal, i.e., the entire hardware path is not encrypted and certified.

Yes but the -system- should be dictating to -you- what is ok
to -capture- and what isn't. There are many legitimate reasons to want
to capture content. The type of DRM, whe whole concept of things like
PVP, it's way too much control for those who are not sitting at the
computer, but instead want to proverbably stand above you and pull
strings of their whim.

This is NOT how computign is supposed to be.

It assumes criminal intent.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I do NOT want an OS that assumes *I* am a criminal. I want an OS that
does what I tell it to do. Period.

Cite please?

It's well know the bulk of Vista's DRM was the result of some sort of
collaboration between MS and the entertainment industries. Theres
already been links posted that display evidence of that (one of which
was snipped a couple levels back up this tree.)

 

[Saran]

Why do all the vista-haters expend so much energy and emotion bitching
about an OS they're not even using?

And why do you assume I haven't been using it? I nfact I use it all the
time. I have several VM images that I use regularly, and we deal with
Vista a plenty all the time on the business side of things, so it all
comes from my own experiences, in addition to what I read and hear
about, which only serves support what I've seen myself.

 

[Saran]

Exactly. DRM does not at any point in the process, cripple playback as
many claim it does.

No, it does in fact cripply play back if you do not have all the
*special* *certified* hardware to *satisfy* it. Like not having HDCP all
the way... player, vid card, monitor or tv. I've seen many problems jsut
trying to play *standard* def content out a vid card's s-video port
because it reportedly had no HDCP support.... it's these sort of things
that really should not be there.

If you have no criminal intentions, then why worry?

Then why treat me, the paying customer, like I do?

 

[Saran]

Do you use it personally on your computer on a daily basis as the
primary OS? Using it in a VM does not count, as virtual machines are
only really good for testing and not day-to-day use. Supporting
customers who use it also doesn't count.

And who the hell are you to say it doesn't count? I have seen all the
problems, as well as al lthe features it brings. I have been able to
test them fully on many types of configurations, so it goes var more
than simple VM testing. IT's real hands on. So, in fact, I wager I have
far more experience with the ins and outs that any average user who
*only* uses it on their home or workstation.

I know where it's lacking and where it dismally fails. I also know where
it does well.

Please stop trying to find excuses when you know that this operating
system does many things that it just should not be doing.

 

[Saran]

Then why are you using it at all? I find Vista to be the best OS that
Microsoft has put out to date, and that's why I'm using it.

Then you have yet to encouter the sort of problems that many other
people do. And it doesn't make the problems any less real. It all
depends how you use your system.

You apparently find it to be trash,

I never actually said that, though I do find plenty wrong with it.

so why the hell do you bother with it at all

Because in our line of business, we still need to support it to remain
competitive. it's a necessary evil, though we have saved many people, if
only by pointing out and demonstrating why they may not want to stick
with this OS. Like I said, it all depends on what you use the system
for.

 

[the wharf rat]

the wharf rat wrote:

I do NOT want an OS that assumes *I* am a criminal. I want an OS that
does what I tell it to do. Period.

Well, ya know, ya can't trust *anyone* these days.

It's well know the bulk of Vista's DRM was the result of some sort of
collaboration between MS and the entertainment industries. Theres

Yes. That's not the same as "Holloywood forced MS to implement
DRM or be sued!!!"

 

[the wharf rat]

Exactly. DRM does not at any point in the process, cripple playback as
many claim it does. It does so only if you attempt to hijack the signal.

No. DRM is triggered when it becomes POSSIBLE to hijack the
signal even if that means snooping board level traces. It does NOT
wait until the act occurs, nor could it.

If you have no criminal intentions, then why worry? What's the fuss

Let's start with the unecessary expense (financial and in
terms of computing resources) of implementing all this to make sure
I don't "intercept" a signal I'm legally entitled to intercept. Remember,
it's not illegal to actually want to PLAY I've purchased rights to on a
high definition output device. By instituting what amounts to a tax on
high definition output Microsoft is preventing the natural functioning
of not only my HDMI interface but of the free market itself.

We can put it another way. All human males are physically
equipped for the act of rape. Applying the Microsoft Theory of Prior
Restraint would make for some rather unpleasant surgery immediately
after birth, though, wouldn't it? Still think it's a valid theory?

And yet a third example: Hollywood screamed just as loudly
about cassette tape recorders and the VCR. They seem to have gotten
over it without signs of bankruptcy, don't you think?