Windows Updates on a CD!

[Vic Dura]

So, what it basically boils down to is: do you trust Microsoft? I
don't. So, as is my option, I refuse to use any WMP above 6.4. I
refuse to use W2K. I refuse to use XP. I'll continue to use W98SE
until 'the change'. I refuse to use Internet Exploder or Outhouse. I
refuse to use M$'s Office products. I refuse to use *any* M$ software.

Well, I'm not interested in playing MM on my computer. I was just
curious, but I agree completely about MS.

When I bought my present computer three and a half years ago, XP was
the "standard", so it cost me an extra $25 to have it come with
win98se. I use Mozilla or FireBird for browsing and Agent for
news/mail. I haven't installed a single update and I've never had a
virus problem.

After that M$ Multimedia Keyboard and the Trojan I refuse to use any
of their hardware. YMMV.

Thanks for the heads-up on the hardware/trojan. I wasn't ever inclined
to use MS hardware. Now I'm even less inclined.

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

Well, I'm not interested in playing MM on my computer. I was just
curious, but I agree completely about MS.

Sigh. What I *was* hoping for was someone to prove me wrong because
the way I see things going is not a good thing for the future of
computing as we know it.

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

After that M$ Multimedia Keyboard and the Trojan I refuse to use any
of their hardware. YMMV.

[...]

Clearly something I've missed. What's it all about?
Cheers, Phred.

I'll try to keep it short (I have the full exchange backed up).

I don't like M$. I don't trust M$. But I wanted a multimedia keyboard,
An M$ one was on sale and I figured, "What the heck". This was on
December 7th, 2003.

When I install any software or drivers I read carefully any EULA's
that pop up. This is especially so with M$ products. Other than the
standard boilerplate about reverse engineering blah blah blah nothing
untoward was shown.

Within 5 minutes of the install the keyboard software tried contacting
M$. ZA caught it. This initiated an exchange with M$ that lasted until
January 13th. I went through three different 'techs'.

Note: There were no options to turn this off. There were no chances
to not install the Trojan. There was no warning given that it would or
was trying to call out. If I'd been running XP with their built-in
'firewall' I'd never have known.

First they tried the runaround. Fortunately ZA Pro had been on sale so
I had bought it. It had the complete logs of times and components
(with version numbers).

During this conversation (without swearing) I accused them of:

-Installing a Trojan on my system (I referenced
http://tinyurl.com/klcg down at the bottom for a definition)

-Using this Trojan to gather information for profiling purposes

-Using the Trojan to spy on me and send them information on me for
profiling purposes and adding to their database.

At no point did they deny my accusations or offer an explanation.

The end result of the BS on their part was: They'll mull (their exact
word) over my suggestions for future software releases.

Yeah, I could have continued using it and let ZA block it. But I
refuse to support any company like this. So I returned it to the
place of purchase for a refund.

I got the refund and applied it towards the Logitech Multimedia
Keyboard which *can* also check for updates. But you have the option
of saying no during the install and toggling it afterwards.

btw. My son bought one of their mice. (IntelliPoint 4.0). It tried
calling out too.

 

[REM]

Haggard the Horrendous wrote:

Sigh. What I *was* hoping for was someone to prove me wrong because
the way I see things going is not a good thing for the future of
computing as we know it.

"btw. My son bought one of their mice. (IntelliPoint 4.0). It tried
calling out too."

This sounds like the devices are checking for updated drivers. My
(non-MS) MM keyboard did this too on a Pavilion system. The techs
might not have known about the actions of the install program and
really could not answer your questions.

I really do not think that it is spyware.

 

[Phred]

Thanks for the detail. Very interesting! With that sort of attitude
the nerds at MS would make good public servants here. (And vice
versa!)

After that M$ Multimedia Keyboard and the Trojan I refuse to use any
of their hardware. YMMV.

[...]

Clearly something I've missed. What's it all about?

I'll try to keep it short (I have the full exchange backed up).

I don't like M$. I don't trust M$. But I wanted a multimedia keyboard,
An M$ one was on sale and I figured, "What the heck". This was on
December 7th, 2003.

When I install any software or drivers I read carefully any EULA's
that pop up. This is especially so with M$ products. Other than the
standard boilerplate about reverse engineering blah blah blah nothing
untoward was shown.

Within 5 minutes of the install the keyboard software tried contacting
M$. ZA caught it. This initiated an exchange with M$ that lasted until
January 13th. I went through three different 'techs'.

Note: There were no options to turn this off. There were no chances
to not install the Trojan. There was no warning given that it would or
was trying to call out. If I'd been running XP with their built-in
'firewall' I'd never have known.

First they tried the runaround. Fortunately ZA Pro had been on sale so
I had bought it. It had the complete logs of times and components
(with version numbers).

During this conversation (without swearing) I accused them of:

-Installing a Trojan on my system (I referenced
http://tinyurl.com/klcg down at the bottom for a definition)

-Using this Trojan to gather information for profiling purposes

-Using the Trojan to spy on me and send them information on me for
profiling purposes and adding to their database.

At no point did they deny my accusations or offer an explanation.

The end result of the BS on their part was: They'll mull (their exact
word) over my suggestions for future software releases.

Yeah, I could have continued using it and let ZA block it. But I
refuse to support any company like this. So I returned it to the
place of purchase for a refund.

I got the refund and applied it towards the Logitech Multimedia
Keyboard which *can* also check for updates. But you have the option
of saying no during the install and toggling it afterwards.

btw. My son bought one of their mice. (IntelliPoint 4.0). It tried
calling out too.

Cheers, Phred.

 

[=?iso-8859-1?Q?Omar=A9?=]

After that M$ Multimedia Keyboard and the Trojan I refuse to use any
of their hardware. YMMV.

[...]

Clearly something I've missed. What's it all about?
Cheers, Phred.

I'll try to keep it short (I have the full exchange backed up).

I don't like M$. I don't trust M$. But I wanted a multimedia keyboard,
An M$ one was on sale and I figured, "What the heck". This was on
December 7th, 2003.

When I install any software or drivers I read carefully any EULA's
that pop up. This is especially so with M$ products. Other than the
standard boilerplate about reverse engineering blah blah blah nothing
untoward was shown.

Within 5 minutes of the install the keyboard software tried contacting
M$. ZA caught it. This initiated an exchange with M$ that lasted until
January 13th. I went through three different 'techs'.

Note: There were no options to turn this off. There were no chances
to not install the Trojan. There was no warning given that it would or
was trying to call out. If I'd been running XP with their built-in
'firewall' I'd never have known.

First they tried the runaround. Fortunately ZA Pro had been on sale so
I had bought it. It had the complete logs of times and components
(with version numbers).

During this conversation (without swearing) I accused them of:

-Installing a Trojan on my system (I referenced
http://tinyurl.com/klcg down at the bottom for a definition)

-Using this Trojan to gather information for profiling purposes

-Using the Trojan to spy on me and send them information on me for
profiling purposes and adding to their database.

At no point did they deny my accusations or offer an explanation.

The end result of the BS on their part was: They'll mull (their exact
word) over my suggestions for future software releases.

Yeah, I could have continued using it and let ZA block it. But I
refuse to support any company like this. So I returned it to the
place of purchase for a refund.

I got the refund and applied it towards the Logitech Multimedia
Keyboard which *can* also check for updates. But you have the option
of saying no during the install and toggling it afterwards.

btw. My son bought one of their mice. (IntelliPoint 4.0). It tried
calling out too.

Only if you install the software that comes with it.
I am using the M$ optical mouse with out using their software and no
problems.
Omar

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

"btw. My son bought one of their mice. (IntelliPoint 4.0). It tried
calling out too."

This sounds like the devices are checking for updated drivers. My
(non-MS) MM keyboard did this too on a Pavilion system. The techs
might not have known about the actions of the install program and
really could not answer your questions.

I really do not think that it is spyware.

It doesn't matter if it's checking for updates, checking the weather
in California or sending M$ a complete list of all the files I have on
my computer. Check the other thread about the keyboard and the Trojan.
They knew.

There was nothing in the EULA stating exactly what it was doing when
it connected or that it was even going to connect. Other than ZA there
was no indication that it was trying to connect. There was no
information from the techs (all three) as to what it was doing. There
was no way, short of blocking it with a firewall, to prevent this.

To clarify:

This is *my* computer, not Gates.

*I* decide what software goes on it, not Gates.

*I* decide when it connects to the Internet, not Gates

*I* decide when software/drivers should be updated, not Gates.

You place far more faith in M$'s honesty and integrity than I do.

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

Only if you install the software that comes with it.
I am using the M$ optical mouse with out using their software and no
problems.
Omar

Yup. And I'm using a Labtec mouse without the drivers supplied by
them. However, if I *had* decided to install their drivers I have
enough respect for their integrity to believe that there would be the
option to prevent auto-updating.

How about the newbies that bought the mouse and installed the
software?

As I said, I refuse to give any more of my money to M$. For anything.

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

Thanks for the detail. Very interesting! With that sort of attitude
the nerds at MS would make good public servants here. (And vice
versa!)

Cheers, Phred.

I was going to ask where you're from but it really doesn't matter,
does it? They're the same everywhere.

Have a look at the UK and the Biometric ID cards they're flogging off
on the public under the impression that this will help stop terrorism.

 

[Max]

There was nothing in the EULA stating exactly what it was doing
when it connected or that it was even going to connect. Other than
ZA there was no indication that it was trying to connect. There
was no information from the techs (all three) as to what it was
doing. There was no way, short of blocking it with a firewall, to
prevent this.

To clarify:

This is *my* computer, not Gates.

*I* decide what software goes on it, not Gates.

*I* decide when it connects to the Internet, not Gates

*I* decide when software/drivers should be updated, not Gates.

You place far more faith in M$'s honesty and integrity than I do.

Yet you still manage to have enough faith in Gates to continue using
his products. Odd that. I said the same things for years. Luckily,
product activation, and its intent, helped me to 'wise-up' real
fast.

Max

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

Yet you still manage to have enough faith in Gates to continue using
his products. Odd that. I said the same things for years. Luckily,
product activation, and its intent, helped me to 'wise-up' real
fast.

Max

Not quite. I use W98SE which I can control. I have the registry hacks
and the other info I need to control it. I use OpenOffice. I use
FreeAgent. I use Mozilla. I haven't 'upgraded' WMP beyond 6.4. I use
Quicktime and Real Player Alternatives. I use ZA Pro, AdAware, Spybot
and AVG.

Product activation, DRM, Palladium, Fritz, Longhorn and all the rest
of the crap Billie and company have planned for our future have
finally gotten *me* off my butt and investigating Linux. It looks like
Susie will serve my needs best.

Which OS are you using?

 

[John Corliss]

(snip)
Exactly my concern. WMP 7+ *does* contain DRM to control the playing
of protected content in WMP.This is their right, as long as the user
is informed. The DRM also includes:

http://www.techimo.com/newsapp/index.pl?photo=1109

Without presenting this in the EULA, Billie and company have decided
that they now have the right to install anything they wish on your (or
my) computer without asking permission. Same as the Trojan they
installed with the M$ Multimedia Keyboard on my computer.

In the past I've contended that MS does this sort of thing (makes
unrelated changes to your system when you install a "patch" or
"update") and I've been called paranoid. This is the second such
documented nonrelated change that I've become aware of (the other was
a removal of certain symbols from a font) resulting from installation
of an MS "patch" and I'm not even looking for proof of this behavior.
I continue in my refusal to "update" my system with MS "patches".
IMO the fact that MS continues to become more and more aggressive in
their belief that they have a right to control and alter YOUR system,
YOUR property, and to monitor your behavior like some out of control
government agency, is the direct result of their being (again, IMO) a
monopoly.

As for the calling home business when you install that MS
Intellitype Pro (I have the keyboard and software too), I'm glad that
I backed up the download and stored it. That way, if I have to
reinstall it, I won't have to use a newer version that even moreso
violates my privacy or serves whatever hidden agenda Microsoft has. In
the mean time, I use Kerio PFW to block *all* the MS crap (that I'm
aware of) from calling home.
So far I have the following rules set in Kerio to block MS's
calling home crap (I'm only using ME - imagine what XP users that run
MS Office are up against):

Protocol* Application
UDP (out) SYSTEM
TCP (out) c:\program files\windows media player\wmplayer.exe
TCP (out) c:\program files\windows media player\setup_wm.exe
TCP (out) c:\windows\explorer.exe
TCP (out) c:\program files\microsoft hardware\keyboard\type32.exe
TCP (out) c:\windows\rundll32.exe

And just to be safe, I have the following rule set all the way at the
bottom:

Any (in or out) Any application

*(applies to all origin and destination ports)

You'll notice that the MS Mouse Intellipoint software is missing from
the list. That's because I use an old version of a Kensington wheel
mouse driver (there were no restrictions on its download and use at
the time, so I viewed it effectively as being freeware) with my MS
Intellimouse. It works better (I can scroll background window without
them coming to the front or becoming active) and never tries to call home.
A lot of people say "well, I have nothing to hide so I don't care"
and that works for now probably. However, eventually you won't have to
be doing anything illegal in order to "care" that Microsoft is spying
on you. That's just the inevitable course of events that will ensue if
the consumer doesn't force them to toe the line.

 

[John Corliss]

(snip)
I have W98SE and foolishly used this suspicious offering ....
... but, go to Add/remove progs - WMP9 can be rolled back to WMP6.4,

Now their website:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/player/readme.aspx#removeplayer

(link may wrap)

says that you can remove WMP9. However, I seem to remember that when
WMP9 first came out, they (MS) said that either it or DRM couldn't be
removed. If I were you, I'd do a format and total reinstall to get rid
of the crap more thoroughly.

 

[Roger Hunt]

(large snip)
You'll notice that the MS Mouse Intellipoint software is missing from
the list. That's because I use an old version of a Kensington wheel
mouse driver (there were no restrictions on its download and use at
the time, so I viewed it effectively as being freeware) with my MS
Intellimouse. It works better (I can scroll background window without
them coming to the front or becoming active) and never tries to call home.

(sn)

I use v2.0 of the Intellipoint drivers, the one with the Mouse Odometer.
Pre- call home drivers. Like a copy? (~900KB .zip)

 

[* ProteanThread *]

Now their website:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/player/readme.aspx#removeplayer

(link may wrap)

says that you can remove WMP9. However, I seem to remember that when
WMP9 first came out, they (MS) said that either it or DRM couldn't be
removed. If I were you, I'd do a format and total reinstall to get rid
of the crap more thoroughly.

It should be noted that it only says that now after the recent EU ruling...

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

Haggard wrote:

In the past I've contended that MS does this sort of thing (makes
unrelated changes to your system when you install a "patch" or
"update") and I've been called paranoid. This is the second such
documented nonrelated change that I've become aware of (the other was
a removal of certain symbols from a font) resulting from installation
of an MS "patch" and I'm not even looking for proof of this behavior.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/02/11/ms_tears_swastika_from_roof/

What's the other one? Having to agree to accept DRM in order to repair
the major Security Breach in WMP9?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/06/30/ms_security_patch_eula_gives/

I continue in my refusal to "update" my system with MS "patches".

Ditto. Which is why I'm sticking with W98SE until I can fully change
to Linux. I also haven't applied *any* patches to W98 and my system
hasn't been compromised yet. Of course nothing connects to the
Internet unless it has too and if it does it's a product cleared by
Pricelessware or SOS. Or this NG.

IMO the fact that MS continues to become more and more aggressive in
their belief that they have a right to control and alter YOUR system,
YOUR property, and to monitor your behavior like some out of control
government agency, is the direct result of their being (again, IMO) a
monopoly.

Keep in mind that now we're not talking just about computers. M$ is
attempting to get involved in *every* aspect of Multimedia.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/03/03/dvd_forum_mandates_microsoft/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/13/time_warner_invests/
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html

And not just M$ is jumping on the bandwagon to strip us of our rights:

http://www.theregister.com/2004/01/10/hp_declares_war_on_sharing/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/15/transmeta_builds_crypto_into_crusoe/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/06/25/why_intel_loves_palladium/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/06/25/ms_to_eradicate_gpl_hence/

This isn't even beginning to touch on RFID's, Biometric ID's, and a
whole slew of other actions attempting to strip our privacy rights
from us.

(Note: I'm familiar with the Registers articles since that's my Home
Page)

As for the calling home business when you install that MS
Intellitype Pro (I have the keyboard and software too), I'm glad that
I backed up the download and stored it. That way, if I have to
reinstall it, I won't have to use a newer version that even moreso
violates my privacy or serves whatever hidden agenda Microsoft has. In

And I have to admit I had a really enjoyable time baiting the M$
techie boys and then returning the keyboard to the place of purchase
(Future Shop if anyone cares) with the reason "They installed a Trojan
on my system" as the reason for return. And then telling M$ what I
told them. Not that it did any good but *I* felt better.

So far I have the following rules set in Kerio to block MS's
calling home crap (I'm only using ME - imagine what XP users that run
MS Office are up against):

I use ZA Pro (Future Shop had it for $10 and, even though it was
version 3 I have, so far, upgraded it to 4. something)

I have it set to ask permission for *anything* to call out.

A lot of people say "well, I have nothing to hide so I don't care"
and that works for now probably.

And I say, "If what you have isn't worth anything, then why are they
doing this behind your back?"

However, eventually you won't have to
be doing anything illegal in order to "care" that Microsoft is spying
on you. That's just the inevitable course of events that will ensue if
the consumer doesn't force them to toe the line.

I'm not doing anything illegal *now*.

 

[Max]

Not quite. I use W98SE which I can control. I have the registry
hacks and the other info I need to control it. I use OpenOffice. I
use FreeAgent. I use Mozilla. I haven't 'upgraded' WMP beyond 6.4.
I use Quicktime and Real Player Alternatives. I use ZA Pro,
AdAware, Spybot and AVG.

Product activation, DRM, Palladium, Fritz, Longhorn and all the
rest of the crap Billie and company have planned for our future
have finally gotten *me* off my butt and investigating Linux. It
looks like Susie will serve my needs best.

Ah, I guess you do see the light. If you *must* hang on to windows,
you can dual boot between the OS's as needed. I'm sure Suse has a
way for you to easily handle that.

Which OS are you using?

Slackware Linux.

Max

 

[John Corliss]

John Corliss wrote:

(large snip)

(sn)

I use v2.0 of the Intellipoint drivers, the one with the Mouse Odometer.
Pre- call home drivers. Like a copy? (~900KB .zip)

No thanks, Roger. I really do like the Kensington driver better for
the reasons I gave. You can scroll on a background window without
bringing it to the top and-or shifting the focus to it. I'm using ver.
1.36. Unfortunately, I'm unable to find a copy on the internet anymore.

 

[Roger Hunt]

No thanks, Roger. I really do like the Kensington driver better for
the reasons I gave. You can scroll on a background window without
bringing it to the top and-or shifting the focus to it. I'm using ver.
1.36. Unfortunately, I'm unable to find a copy on the internet anymore.

That sounds interesting .... I wonder, could you slip me a few key words
and I can go searching. ;-)

 

[Haggard the Horrendous]

Ah, I guess you do see the light. If you *must* hang on to windows,
you can dual boot between the OS's as needed. I'm sure Suse has a
way for you to easily handle that.

I was considering dual boot but changed my mind. Everything I *need*
to do I can do on this machine. So I'm in the process of figuring out
a new machine (picking the parts - always a fun thing) that'll do the
same. I'll transfer W98 to it, wipe this one, and install Linux on it.
Then I can get the Linux machine up to the capabilities I need without
being inconvenienced. And then repeat the process on the new one. By
then the newer distros should support the newer components.

Slackware Linux.

For my first shot I decided to go with the commercial distro of Susie
since it comes with the manuals that *should* answer most of my
questions. Or at least allow me to ask not-too-dumb questions. When I
have my aged brain wrapped around a new way of thinking then I can
experiment with other distros.

One of the reasons I stuck with W98 for so long, I think, is I wanted
to help others harden their computers against attacks and such. Most
people don't give a damn. So, it's time to move on and leave them to
their own follies.