Vista I will not be buying

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Which one? Please quote.

Section 107, the only law that establishes fair use says:

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a
copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes
such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple
copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement
of copyright.

Notice it says that fair use is "not an infringement of copyright". Not
that there is an affirmative right to fair use of something.

First sale does grant an affirmative right to copy, but this is just
like any other right that one can trade away for something of greater value.
(Assuming such an agreement isn't unconscionable.)

DS
 
Like I said, it doesn't matter.
Correct.

If a copyright owner cannot use a shrinkwrap license to redefine "fair
use,"
Correct.

and the copyright owner doesn't posssess the exclusive right to my "fair
use,"
Correct.

then I can fairly use my copy of copyrighted material.

Sure, unless you agreed not to in exchange for something, and that
agreement and exchange were not unconscionable.

You have a driver's license. This gives you the privilege of driving a
car so long as you comply with the laws. But it's crazy to argue that the
driver's license law means you can drive a car you leased from Hertz into
Canada when the agreement you signed with Hertz said you would keep the car
in the United States. This is true even though you have a fundamental right
to International travel.

It really is that simple. Really.

You can contract away fundamental rights, so long as the contract is not
unconscionable. Such contracts are enforceable. Congress does not have the
power to impair contractual limitations. The Constitution says so.

Of course, the contract cannot be uncoinscionable. You must genuinely
agreed to it. And there can be reasonable questions over whether or not you
actually violated it.

DS
 
You're very mad....
I'm Italian, I think that Vista will be a great success, like Xp...
Linux could be a great thing, but only because is a free-source. You
can't find many programs for Linux, you can't do with Linux all the
things you do with WINDOWS!
W Gates..W Windows!
 
You're very mad....
I'm Italian, I think that Vista will be a great success, like Xp...
Linux could be a great thing, but only because is a free-source. You
can't find many programs for Linux, you can't do with Linux all the
things you do with WINDOWS!
W Gates..W Windows!
 
You're very mad....
I'm Italian, I think that Vista will be a great success, like Xp...
Linux could be a great thing, but only because is a free-source. You
can't find many programs for Linux, you can't do with Linux all the
things you do with WINDOWS!
W Gates..W Windows!
 
You're very mad....
I'm Italian, I think that Vista will be a great success, like Xp...
Linux could be a great thing, but only because is a free-source. You
can't find many programs for Linux, you can't do with Linux all the
things you do with WINDOWS!
W Gates..W Windows!
 
David said:
Exactly. And what bearing did that have on the contract? None. Get
it yet?

Yeah. You are totally confusing the ProCD case. It had nothing to do
with copyright law at all, because the database material wasn't
copyrightable, not because copyright law has no bearing on contracts.
Huh? You aren't even making sense at all now.

Really? What part of it didn't you understand? I'll type slower for
you next time!
If you own a physical medium, absent laws or contracts to the
contrary, you could do whatever you wanted with that physical medium.
If it was a CD of songs, you could copy them, give them to friends,
sell them, and so on. Two classes of things can take these "rights"
away, copyright and contract.

Copyright could only do it is you got Congress to rewrite copyright law.
And we have already established the a contract cannot rewrite copyright
law.
Copyright can limit what you can do even if you don't agree to the
limitations. Because of this power, it also has limits.


Contracts can also limit what you can do. They are limited in that
you must agree to them and they cannot be unconscionable.

Naw. You have yet to show a court precedent that says that a contract
can limit my "fair use."
Why are you so resistant to correcting a simple misunderstanding? I
don't get it.

LOL! OK, you have totally misunderstood ProCD. Consider yourself
corrected.
What? No. They meant what they said as far as it applies to that
case where the only issue was copyright. Under those circumstances,
an individual may reproduce a copyrighted work.

And the copyright owner does not possess the exclusive right to such a
use. And there is no legal precedent that says that a copyright owner
can gain possession of such a fair use through a post-sale shrinkwrap
license.
Can I break into your house to use your CD burner to make a copy
of my CD if that copy is fair use?

No, that is a criminal offense.
After all, an individual "may
reproduce a copyrighted work for a fair use".

LOL! Can you break into my house and take possession of my "fair use?"
No, why that is a criminal offense.

What committing a crime has to do with a copyright owner trying to take
possession of my
"fair use" in a post-sale shrink-wrap license, I'd have no idea.

You seem to be implying that a contract is a law unto itself. And it is
not.
C'mon, you're being totally stupid here. Obviously the court was
saying that copyright doesn't prohibit it but that other things might.

"but that other things might" That is a blatant lie because the
Supreme Court didn't say or even remotely imply any such thing.

When you have to stoop to lying, you shouldn't even bother replying.
That doesn't even make sense.

LOL! What part didn't you understand? I'll be glad to explain it to
you.
Of course, since it makes no sense. What is an "exclusive right to
a fair use"?

It is what the copyright owner does not possess according to the supreme
court.
Here's a question for you. You buy a CD. Under fair use and first
sale, you have the right to listen to it. Can I refuse to allow you
to listen to it on my CD player?

Can you refuse to allow me to play in on my CD player?
Can I charge you to use my CD player
to listen to it?

Can you charge me to play it on my CD player?

I have every right to play my copy of music for my private
non-commercial use. If you abandon your CD player playing in my home,
then I would have the right to use it.
No. Drunk driving is not an infringement of copyright.

LOL! Really? Here is your stupid argument again! I love it.
Does it
follow that you have the right to do it?

Yeah. If I'm drunk driving my copyrighted material. If you are talking
about drunk driving a motor vehicle, the
You have the right do it,
UNDER COPYRIGHT LAW.

Really? Does Copyright Law specifically state that Drunk Driving is not
an infringement, like it does about "fair use?" Of course not.

Are you really that stupid that you Drunk Driving a motor vehicle is
analogous to "fair use?"
That doesn't mean it can't violate other laws
and contracts and that they cannot prevent you from doing.

Where does copyright law, contracts, come into drunk driving?
The only exception would be state or local laws. This is because
copyright *does* pre-empt state and local laws. But this is not
because it grants rights, it's because Congress specfically designed
it that way and Congress has the power of Federal supremacy. Congress
does *not* have the power to interfere with obligations under
contracts. (See Section 10 of the United State Consitution.)

WRONG! "No State" has that power under Section 10 of the US
Constitution.

No wonder you don't supply quotes like I do!
You can legally stay home.
Yep.

That doesn't mean you wouldn't be
violating an employment contract if you did so.

Why? Because there is no law that allows you to choose to work at home
over the objections of your employer.

With copyright, there is a law and Supreme Court precedent that allows
you to reproduce a copyrighted work for your "fair use."
C'mon, this is the
kind of idiotic argument even first month law students are smart
enough not to make.

I agree that your kind of idiotic argument is not one that even a first
month law student would make.
Plenty of things are not rights but are also not prohibited. It is
not prohibited to drive below the speed limit, but driving is not a
right, it's a privilege. Forming a corporation is not a right, it's a
discretionary privilege, but it's also not prohibited.

"Fair use" is not a privilege. It is a limitation on the exclusive
rights of the Copyright owner.
And even if it was a right, contracts can certainly restrict
rights. For example, freedom of association is a fundamental right.
So is freedom of speech. But a contract can limit either of these
freedoms and do so enforceably, so long as it isn't unconscionable.

To do it in a post-sale shrink-wrap license for copyright material would
be unconscionable to me.
For example, on fundamental right is freedom of association.
Suppose I sign a contract to provide a local seafood restaurant with
10 pounds of shrim a day for $8 a pound. What happens to my right not
to associate with that restaurant?

You have the right to breech your contract. And you are entering into a
commercial contract. I'm not. After the sale of the copy of software,
and before I ever see the shrink-wrap license, I no longer have a
commerial relationship with the copyright owner. And even at the time
of sale, my commercial relationship is with the retailer, not the
copyright owner.
A right one cannot contract to restrict is actually a yoke,
because it limits the voluntary agreements you can make to your
detriment.

LOL! Good one. I would never want to contract away my rights.
Of course most rights are in fact rights against governments. But
even then, you can contract with the government to give up rights.
For example, you have a right to a jury trial, but plea bargains
(essentially contracts where you give up this right) have been held
to be Consitutional many times.

And has nothing to do with what I can legally do with my copy of
copyrighted material for my private non-commercial use.
Yes, ProCD did say that.

Where? Exact quote please.
If copyright law created positive rights,
Zeidenberg would have had them.

No he wouldn't. Remember Databases aren't copyrighted material.
What kind of crap is this?! Of course contracts can't violate
rules of positive law. A contract that says I have to show up at work
at 8AM yields my right to stay home, but doesn't "violate positive
law".

Exactly! But a post-sale shrinkwrap license that tries to rewrite "fair
use" does.
This is another argument no first week law school student would
make. It's a silly as "if it's my bat, I can hit you over the head
with it".

Then why do you keep saying silly sh*t?
I don't get it. The right to travel has been held to be
fundamental in so many cases I don't even know where to start:

"The right to travel is a part of the `liberty' of which the citizen
cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth
Amendment. . . . Freedom of movement across frontiers in either
direction, and inside frontiers as well, was a part of our heritage.
Travel abroad, like travel within the country, . . . may be as close
to the heart of the individual as the choice of what he eats, or
wears, or reads. Freedom of movement is basic in our scheme of
values." - Kent V. Dulles, 357 US 116
See also Korematsu v. United States, which held that citizens can
have their freedom of movement restrictud only on showing of the
"gravest imminent danger". See also Apetheker v. Secretary of State.

The law, of course, is the tenth amendment.

Does it give you the right to tresspass? If not, then you do not have
an absolute right to come and go where you choose!
The first, ninth, and tenth amendements to the consitution do.

And keep your job? The Bill of Rights give you the right to keep your
job, while you ignore your work responsibilities? I think not.
What law would that be? The only one I know of says it's not an
infringement of copyright law.

"Fair use"
That is correct, under copyright law it is an exception to his
exclusive rights.

No it is a Limitation of the copyright owners exclusive rights.
So, qua copyright holder, he does not have that
right.

The first, ninth, and tenth ammendments say that.

No they don't give you that right and still be employed.
Freedom of
association means I cannot be compelled to even deal with the
employer if I don't want to.

And he is free to not pay you.
Contracts that restrict fundamental
rights are not unconscionable.

Really?! Then indentured servitude is still legal? I could sell myself
into slavery? I could sell you into slavery?
Marriage contracts restrict your
freedom of association.
Really?!

Leases restrict your right to be secure in
your property.

A Lease can make my property insecure?
A contract is only unconscionable if it actually shocks the
conscience.

Or violates a rule of positive law. And trying to restrict my fair use
and my rights under first sale AFTER the fact of the sale shocks the
hell out of my conscience.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
David said:
Section 107, the only law that establishes fair use says:

It says nothing about *other* rights granted *other* ways.
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use
of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for
purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching
(including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or
research, is not an infringement of copyright.

Notice it says that fair use is "not an infringement of
copyright". Not that there is an affirmative right to fair use of
something.

It makes it legal to "fairly use." It certainly doesn't make "fair use"
illegal.
First sale does grant an affirmative right to copy, but this is
just like any other right that one can trade away for something of
greater value. (Assuming such an agreement isn't unconscionable.)

Says who? Not the ProCD decision! To me there is no way that a
post-sale shrink-wrap license terms can strip a consumer of their First
Sale right, after the fact of the sale, and not be totally
unconscionable.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
David said:
Sure, unless you agreed not to in exchange for something, and that
agreement and exchange were not unconscionable.

LOL! And pray tell given an actual example with copyright software.
You have a driver's license. This gives you the privilege of
driving a car so long as you comply with the laws. But it's crazy to
argue that the driver's license law means you can drive a car you
leased from Hertz into Canada when the agreement you signed with
Hertz said you would keep the car in the United States. This is true
even though you have a fundamental right to International travel.

LOL! You don't have a fundamental right to International travel with a
car that isn't yours.
It really is that simple. Really.

Yes you are.
You can contract away fundamental rights, so long as the contract
is not unconscionable. Such contracts are enforceable. Congress does
not have the power to impair contractual limitations. The
Constitution says so.

No it does not. The US Constitution says NO STATE has the the power to
impair contractual limitations.

If you need to lie, then just don't reply.
Of course, the contract cannot be uncoinscionable. You must
genuinely agreed to it. And there can be reasonable questions over
whether or not you actually violated it.

LOL!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
You're very mad....
I'm Italian, I think that Vista will be a great success, like Xp...
Linux could be a great thing, but only because is a free-source. You
can't find many programs for Linux, you can't do with Linux all the
things you do with WINDOWS!
W Gates..W Windows!

It is true that there are probably more programs for Windows than Linux.
But if you limit yourself to only well-written, useful programs, the numbers
converge quite a lot.

DS
 
No, that is a criminal offense.


LOL! Can you break into my house and take possession of my "fair use?"
No, why that is a criminal offense.

Exactly. In other words, rights you have under copyright are still
restricted by other laws and contracts. They aren't freestanding rights
against anything else. They're just exceptions to the rights granter under
copyright law.
What committing a crime has to do with a copyright owner trying to take
possession of my
"fair use" in a post-sale shrink-wrap license, I'd have no idea.

I don't understand how much clearer I can be. Fair use is not a right,
it's an exception to copyright. You did read the section? It's 100% clear.

DS
 
David Schwartz wrote:

It says nothing about *other* rights granted *other* ways.

That is correct. Do you know of something else that grants such rights?
It makes it legal to "fairly use." It certainly doesn't make "fair use"
illegal.

No, it does not make it legal to fairly use. It makes it "not an
infringement of copryight". That does *NOT* make it legal.

A speeding law might say, "it is not an infringement of this law to
drive at a speed lower than the posted speed limit". That does not create
some right to drive at a speed lower than the speed limit against any and
all other things that might also seek to restrict your driving. It just say
that it's not a violation of *THAT* law.
Says who? Not the ProCD decision! To me there is no way that a post-sale
shrink-wrap license terms can strip a consumer of their First Sale right,
after the fact of the sale, and not be totally unconscionable.

I don't know what to say. You have asserted a direct contradiction.

In the ProCD case, absent the shrink wrap agreement, the buyer would
have had more rights than just first sale. He would have had full rights to
do whatever he wanted. ProCD held that even these greater rights could be
restricted by a shrink wrap agreement and it not be unconscionable. So how
could the much lesser restriction of just taking away first sale not be
unconscionable?!

You are saying that a shrink wrap license that took away first sale
would be automatically unconscionable. But in ProCD, the shrink wrap license
took away a much greater set of rights, since nothing the owner could have
done would have been a violation of copyright.

How can a greater restriction be unconscionable and not a lesser one?
There's no way you can ever explain that.

DS
 
David Schwartz wrote:

LOL! And pray tell given an actual example with copyright software.

I've cited a case where a much greater set of rights than just fair use
and first sale were taken away by a shrink wrap agreement, and the agreement
was *not* found unconscionable. Sorry, this is just so obvious that it's
hard to find places where it's explained in detail.

Let's start just with ProCD v. Zeidenberg. The court so clearly found
that copyright and contract do not overlap precisely because of the
requirement of agreement in a contract and the absence in copyright. Sorry,
these are going to be long:

--
But are rights created by contract

"equivalent to any of the exclusive rights within the

general scope of copyright"? Three courts of appeals

have answered "no." National Car Rental Systems, Inc. v.

Computer Associates International, Inc., 991 F.2d 426,

433 (8th Cir. 1993); Taquino v. Teledyne Monarch

Rubber, 893 F.2d 1488, 1501 (5th Cir. 1990); Acorn

Structures, Inc. v. Swantz, 846 F.2d 923, 926 (4th Cir.

1988). The district court disagreed [**21] with these

decisions, 908 F. Supp. at 658, but we think them sound.

Rights "equivalent to any of the exclusive rights within

the general scope of copyright" are rights established by

law--rights that restrict the options of persons who are

strangers to the author. Copyright law forbids

duplication, public performance, and so on, unless the

person wishing to copy or perform the work gets

permission; silence means a ban on copying. A copyright

is a right against the world. Contracts, by contrast,

generally affect only their parties; strangers may do as

they please, so contracts do not create "exclusive rights."

--

But whether a

particular license is generous or restrictive, a simple twoparty

contract is not "equivalent to any of the exclusive

rights within the general scope of copyright" and

therefore may be enforced.

--

National Car

Rental likewise recognizes the possibility that some

applications of the law of contract could interfere with

the attainment of national objectives and therefore come

within the domain of ß 301(a). But general enforcement

of shrinkwrap licenses of the kind before us does not

create such interference.
LOL! You don't have a fundamental right to International travel with a
car that isn't yours.


Exactly. When you got the car, you agreed to limit what would otherwise
be a right in exchange for the car. Similarly, when you consent to a shrink
wrap agreement or license, you agree to limit what would otherwise be a
right in exchange for the product.

No it does not. The US Constitution says NO STATE has the the power to
impair contractual limitations.


James Madison wrote:

Bills of attainder, ex post facto laws, and laws impairing the obligation of
contracts, are contrary to the first principles of the social compact, and
to every principle of sound legislation. The two former are expressly
prohibited by the declarations prefixed to some of the State constitutions,
and all of them are prohibited by the spirit and scope of these fundamental
charters. Our own experience has taught us, nevertheless, that additional
fences against these dangers ought not to be omitted.

Congress can limit the obligation of contracts in some ways. The Federal
bankrupcy laws are an example. However there simply is no Federal
legislative power to modify contracts or excuse people from their
obligations under them.

Quoting Jacob Hornberger, "The states were prohibited from impairing the
obligation of contracts and the federal government was not given a power to
impair contracts." For a good Supreme Court cite, see Pension Benefit
Guaranty Corporation v. R. A. Gray and Company, 467 US 717, 1984. It says,
essentially, that Federal laws impairing the obligation of contracts are
examined under a lesser level of scrutiny. The legal grounds would be that
laws impairing the right to contract are examined under due process.

But simply put, what you are claiming is just preposterous. I defy you
to find one cite from an even remotely reputable source that suggests that
shrink wrap agreements can't create restrictions on use not found under
copyright. I defy you to find one cite that even suggests that fair use is a
"right" that a contract cannot limit.

I can find any number of cites to the contrary, though many are not
direct because the argument is so absurd.

From Henry Gabriel, professor of commercial law at Loyola, talking about
shrink wrap agreements on books, says that if you use a work "with knowledge
or having access to the terms of the licesne, you're probably bound to the
terms. That doesn't make all the terms enforeable. You still might not be
bound to terms that are unreasonable."

From a UT law school summary of ProCD v. Zeidenberg, "The ProCD court
found that shrinkwrap licenses were enforceable, including terms that may
take away important rights granted to software and database users under
federal copyright law."

From Kohrman, Jackson and Grantz, discussing Bowers v. Baystate
Technologies, the "court has held that the fair use exception may be
excluded by the terms of a shrink-wrap license" and "Given the facts of this
case, and applying Massachusetts law, the court held the shrink-wrap
agreement enforceable and Baystate's reverse engineering a violation of its
agreement with Bowers. The Copyright Act exception for fair use, the court
ruled, did not pre-empt the state law result."

And, "...a state can permit parties to contract away a fair use defense
or to agree not to engage in uses of copyrighted material that are permitted
by the copyright law, if the contract is freely negotiated...A freely
negotiated agreement represents the 'extra element' that prevents preemption
of a state law claim that would otherwise be identical to the infringement
claim barred by the fair use defense of reverse engineering...However, state
law giving effect to shrink-wrap licenses is no different in substance from
a hypothetical black dot law. Like any other contract of adhesion, the only
choice offered to the purchaser is to avoid making the purchase in the first
place. ...State law thus gives the copyright holder the ability to eliminate
the fair use defense in each and every instance at its option. In doing so,
as the majority concedes, it authorizes 'shrink-wrap agreements...[that] are
far broader than the protection afforded by copyright law.'"
If you need to lie, then just don't reply.


If you're incapable of being polite, don't reply.

That's about at the same level as "that's what you think".

DS
 
David said:
Exactly. In other words, rights you have under copyright are still
restricted by other laws and contracts.

Breaking and entering has nothing to do with copyright law.
They aren't freestanding
rights against anything else. They're just exceptions to the rights
granter under copyright law.

Dude, you are full of it.
I don't understand how much clearer I can be. Fair use is not a
right, it's an exception to copyright. You did read the section? It's
100% clear.

Dude, I have every right to fairly use my copies of copyrighted
material. I don't have a right under copyright law to break into your
house.

Confusing the two together just shows how desparate you are to argue
utter nonsense.

It's time to get off the drugs, they are rotting your brain.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
David said:
That is correct. Do you know of something else that grants such
rights?

Yes, but it is not a law unto itself, and as such cannot rewrite
copyright law.
No, it does not make it legal to fairly use. It makes it "not an
infringement of copryight". That does *NOT* make it legal.

LOL! It is either legal to fairly use, or illegal.
A speeding law might say, "it is not an infringement of this law to
drive at a speed lower than the posted speed limit".

A speeding law might say the cow jumped over the moon. But it doesn't
say that any more than it says what you have written.
That does not
create some right to drive at a speed lower than the speed limit
against any and all other things that might also seek to restrict
your driving. It just say that it's not a violation of *THAT* law.

LOL! Which would make driving under the speed limit legally permissable
under *THAT* law.
I don't know what to say. You have asserted a direct contradiction.

In the ProCD case, absent the shrink wrap agreement, the buyer
would have had more rights than just first sale.

First sale has no bearing in ProCD. The judge said that is a matter for
a different case.
He would have had
full rights to do whatever he wanted. ProCD held that even these
greater rights could be restricted by a shrink wrap agreement and it
not be unconscionable. So how could the much lesser restriction of
just taking away first sale not be unconscionable?!

First sale wasn't even considered in the ProCD decision.
You are saying that a shrink wrap license that took away first sale
would be automatically unconscionable.

After the fact of the sale!
But in ProCD, the shrink wrap
license took away a much greater set of rights, since nothing the
owner could have done would have been a violation of copyright.

There was no right of first sale in question in ProCD.
How can a greater restriction be unconscionable and not a lesser
one? There's no way you can ever explain that.

Because you have your right of first sale from the moment of the sale,
long before even seeing any post-sale shrink-wrap license.

It is a matter of consumer protection. Baiting the consumer by selling
a copy of copyrighted material, and switching after the fact of the
sale, that that sale didn't happen and was actually something different.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
David said:
I've cited a case where a much greater set of rights than just
fair use and first sale were taken away by a shrink wrap agreement,
and the agreement was *not* found unconscionable. Sorry, this is just
so obvious that it's hard to find places where it's explained in
detail.

In other words, your cannot give one. All you can show is a decision
that has nothing to do with copyrighted software.
Let's start just with ProCD v. Zeidenberg. The court so clearly
found that copyright and contract do not overlap precisely because of
the requirement of agreement in a contract and the absence in
copyright.

They don't overlap because their was not copyrighted material
Sorry, these are going to be long:

--
But are rights created by contract

"equivalent to any of the exclusive rights within the

general scope of copyright"? Three courts of appeals

have answered "no." National Car Rental Systems, Inc. v.

Computer Associates International, Inc., 991 F.2d 426,

433 (8th Cir. 1993); Taquino v. Teledyne Monarch

Rubber, 893 F.2d 1488, 1501 (5th Cir. 1990); Acorn

Structures, Inc. v. Swantz, 846 F.2d 923, 926 (4th Cir.

1988). The district court disagreed [**21] with these

decisions, 908 F. Supp. at 658, but we think them sound.

Rights "equivalent to any of the exclusive rights within

the general scope of copyright" are rights established by

law--rights that restrict the options of persons who are

strangers to the author. Copyright law forbids

duplication, public performance, and so on, unless the

person wishing to copy or perform the work gets

permission; silence means a ban on copying. A copyright

is a right against the world. Contracts, by contrast,

generally affect only their parties; strangers may do as

they please, so contracts do not create "exclusive rights."

So contracts don't create "exclusive rights" in the 7th circuit.
But whether a

particular license is generous or restrictive, a simple twoparty

contract is not "equivalent to any of the exclusive

rights within the general scope of copyright" and

therefore may be enforced.

All that is saying is that a contract is not equivalent to copyright.
It doesn't say that a contract may rewrite copyright law.
Exactly. When you got the car, you agreed to limit what would
otherwise be a right in exchange for the car. Similarly, when you
consent to a shrink wrap agreement or license, you agree to limit
what would otherwise be a right in exchange for the product.

That wasn't the deal at the time of the sale. The deal was money for
copy of copyrighted material. I have my first sale rights long before
any shrinkwrap liecense.
James Madison wrote:

Bills of attainder, ex post facto laws, and laws impairing the
obligation of contracts, are contrary to the first principles of the
social compact, and to every principle of sound legislation. The two
former are expressly prohibited by the declarations prefixed to some
of the State constitutions, and all of them are prohibited by the
spirit and scope of these fundamental charters. Our own experience
has taught us, nevertheless, that additional fences against these
dangers ought not to be omitted.
Congress can limit the obligation of contracts in some ways. The
Federal bankrupcy laws are an example. However there simply is no
Federal legislative power to modify contracts or excuse people from
their obligations under them.

Quoting Jacob Hornberger, "The states were prohibited from
impairing the obligation of contracts and the federal government was
not given a power to impair contracts." For a good Supreme Court
cite, see Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation v. R. A. Gray and
Company, 467 US 717, 1984. It says, essentially, that Federal laws
impairing the obligation of contracts are examined under a lesser
level of scrutiny. The legal grounds would be that laws impairing the
right to contract are examined under due process.

Section. 10.
Clause 1: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or
Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit
Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in
Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law
impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

That is the section of the constitution your meant. Says NO STATE, not
"Congress does not have the power to impair contractual limitations."
And the constitution doesn't say it. It is a blatant lie to say,
"Congress does not have the power to impair contractual limitations. The
Constitution says so.
But simply put, what you are claiming is just preposterous. I defy
you to find one cite from an even remotely reputable source that
suggests that shrink wrap agreements can't create restrictions on use
not found under copyright.

I didn't claim that. I said they cannot shrinkwrap license away what is
found in copyright law/
I defy you to find one cite that even
suggests that fair use is a "right" that a contract cannot limit.


I can find any number of cites to the contrary, though many are not
direct because the argument is so absurd.

From Henry Gabriel, professor of commercial law at Loyola, talking
about shrink wrap agreements on books, says that if you use a work
"with knowledge or having access to the terms of the licesne, you're
probably bound to the terms. That doesn't make all the terms
enforeable. You still might not be bound to terms that are
unreasonable."

LOL! That the copyright owner can repossess my fair use of my copy of
copyright software through a POST-SALE SHRINK-WRAP LICENSE is
unreasonable.
From a UT law school summary of ProCD v. Zeidenberg, "The ProCD
court found that shrinkwrap licenses were enforceable, including
terms that may take away important rights granted to software and
database users under federal copyright law."

I can pay a lawyer to say anything. But since ProCD wasn't about
software or any kind of copyrighted material saying that ProCD "may take
away important rights . . . . under federal copyright law" is saying
something the decision never said.
From Kohrman, Jackson and Grantz, discussing Bowers v. Baystate
Technologies, the "court has held that the fair use exception may be
excluded by the terms of a shrink-wrap license" and "Given the facts
of this case, and applying Massachusetts law, the court held the
shrink-wrap agreement enforceable and Baystate's reverse engineering
a violation of its agreement with Bowers. The Copyright Act exception
for fair use, the court ruled, did not pre-empt the state law result."

And, "...a state can permit parties to contract away a fair use
defense or to agree not to engage in uses of copyrighted material
that are permitted by the copyright law, if the contract is freely
negotiated...A freely negotiated agreement represents the 'extra
element' that prevents preemption of a state law claim that would
otherwise be identical to the infringement claim barred by the fair
use defense of reverse engineering...However, state law giving effect
to shrink-wrap licenses is no different in substance from a
hypothetical black dot law. Like any other contract of adhesion, the
only choice offered to the purchaser is to avoid making the purchase
in the first place. ...State law thus gives the copyright holder the
ability to eliminate the fair use defense in each and every instance
at its option. In doing so, as the majority concedes, it authorizes
'shrink-wrap agreements...[that] are far broader than the protection
afforded by copyright law.'"

I want a link to that before I reply to it so I'm can see the WHOLE
THING. Not just the edited crap.

If you're incapable of being polite, don't reply.

It is a blatant lie to say, "Congress does not have the power to impair
contractual limitations. The Constitution says so," when the
constitution doesn't say that, but says "No State shall enter into any
Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and
Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and
silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex
post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant
any Title of Nobility."
That's about at the same level as "that's what you think".

Whatever. At least I don't have to lie.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
Please do as the rest of us, and killfile kurt.

David said:
David Schwartz wrote:


LOL! And pray tell given an actual example with copyright software.


I've cited a case where a much greater set of rights than just fair use
and first sale were taken away by a shrink wrap agreement, and the agreement
was *not* found unconscionable. Sorry, this is just so obvious that it's
hard to find places where it's explained in detail.

Let's start just with ProCD v. Zeidenberg. The court so clearly found
that copyright and contract do not overlap precisely because of the
requirement of agreement in a contract and the absence in copyright. Sorry,
these are going to be long:

--
But are rights created by contract

"equivalent to any of the exclusive rights within the

general scope of copyright"? Three courts of appeals

have answered "no." National Car Rental Systems, Inc. v.

Computer Associates International, Inc., 991 F.2d 426,

433 (8th Cir. 1993); Taquino v. Teledyne Monarch

Rubber, 893 F.2d 1488, 1501 (5th Cir. 1990); Acorn

Structures, Inc. v. Swantz, 846 F.2d 923, 926 (4th Cir.

1988). The district court disagreed [**21] with these

decisions, 908 F. Supp. at 658, but we think them sound.

Rights "equivalent to any of the exclusive rights within

the general scope of copyright" are rights established by

law--rights that restrict the options of persons who are

strangers to the author. Copyright law forbids

duplication, public performance, and so on, unless the

person wishing to copy or perform the work gets

permission; silence means a ban on copying. A copyright

is a right against the world. Contracts, by contrast,

generally affect only their parties; strangers may do as

they please, so contracts do not create "exclusive rights."

--

But whether a

particular license is generous or restrictive, a simple twoparty

contract is not "equivalent to any of the exclusive

rights within the general scope of copyright" and

therefore may be enforced.

--

National Car

Rental likewise recognizes the possibility that some

applications of the law of contract could interfere with

the attainment of national objectives and therefore come

within the domain of ß 301(a). But general enforcement

of shrinkwrap licenses of the kind before us does not

create such interference.

LOL! You don't have a fundamental right to International travel with a
car that isn't yours.



Exactly. When you got the car, you agreed to limit what would otherwise
be a right in exchange for the car. Similarly, when you consent to a shrink
wrap agreement or license, you agree to limit what would otherwise be a
right in exchange for the product.


No it does not. The US Constitution says NO STATE has the the power to
impair contractual limitations.



James Madison wrote:

Bills of attainder, ex post facto laws, and laws impairing the obligation of
contracts, are contrary to the first principles of the social compact, and
to every principle of sound legislation. The two former are expressly
prohibited by the declarations prefixed to some of the State constitutions,
and all of them are prohibited by the spirit and scope of these fundamental
charters. Our own experience has taught us, nevertheless, that additional
fences against these dangers ought not to be omitted.

Congress can limit the obligation of contracts in some ways. The Federal
bankrupcy laws are an example. However there simply is no Federal
legislative power to modify contracts or excuse people from their
obligations under them.

Quoting Jacob Hornberger, "The states were prohibited from impairing the
obligation of contracts and the federal government was not given a power to
impair contracts." For a good Supreme Court cite, see Pension Benefit
Guaranty Corporation v. R. A. Gray and Company, 467 US 717, 1984. It says,
essentially, that Federal laws impairing the obligation of contracts are
examined under a lesser level of scrutiny. The legal grounds would be that
laws impairing the right to contract are examined under due process.

But simply put, what you are claiming is just preposterous. I defy you
to find one cite from an even remotely reputable source that suggests that
shrink wrap agreements can't create restrictions on use not found under
copyright. I defy you to find one cite that even suggests that fair use is a
"right" that a contract cannot limit.

I can find any number of cites to the contrary, though many are not
direct because the argument is so absurd.

From Henry Gabriel, professor of commercial law at Loyola, talking about
shrink wrap agreements on books, says that if you use a work "with knowledge
or having access to the terms of the licesne, you're probably bound to the
terms. That doesn't make all the terms enforeable. You still might not be
bound to terms that are unreasonable."

From a UT law school summary of ProCD v. Zeidenberg, "The ProCD court
found that shrinkwrap licenses were enforceable, including terms that may
take away important rights granted to software and database users under
federal copyright law."

From Kohrman, Jackson and Grantz, discussing Bowers v. Baystate
Technologies, the "court has held that the fair use exception may be
excluded by the terms of a shrink-wrap license" and "Given the facts of this
case, and applying Massachusetts law, the court held the shrink-wrap
agreement enforceable and Baystate's reverse engineering a violation of its
agreement with Bowers. The Copyright Act exception for fair use, the court
ruled, did not pre-empt the state law result."

And, "...a state can permit parties to contract away a fair use defense
or to agree not to engage in uses of copyrighted material that are permitted
by the copyright law, if the contract is freely negotiated...A freely
negotiated agreement represents the 'extra element' that prevents preemption
of a state law claim that would otherwise be identical to the infringement
claim barred by the fair use defense of reverse engineering...However, state
law giving effect to shrink-wrap licenses is no different in substance from
a hypothetical black dot law. Like any other contract of adhesion, the only
choice offered to the purchaser is to avoid making the purchase in the first
place. ...State law thus gives the copyright holder the ability to eliminate
the fair use defense in each and every instance at its option. In doing so,
as the majority concedes, it authorizes 'shrink-wrap agreements...[that] are
far broader than the protection afforded by copyright law.'"

If you need to lie, then just don't reply.



If you're incapable of being polite, don't reply.



That's about at the same level as "that's what you think".

DS
 
Bob I said:
Please do as the rest of us, and killfile kurt.

I don't have him kill filed. Since when do you represent "the rest of us"?

Alias
David said:
David Schwartz wrote:

message

Like I said, it doesn't matter.

Correct.


If a copyright owner cannot use a shrinkwrap license to redefine
"fair use,"

Correct.


and the copyright owner doesn't posssess the exclusive right to my
"fair use,"

Correct.


then I can fairly use my copy of copyrighted material.

Sure, unless you agreed not to in exchange for something, and that
agreement and exchange were not unconscionable.

LOL! And pray tell given an actual example with copyright software.


I've cited a case where a much greater set of rights than just fair
use and first sale were taken away by a shrink wrap agreement, and the
agreement was *not* found unconscionable. Sorry, this is just so obvious
that it's hard to find places where it's explained in detail.

Let's start just with ProCD v. Zeidenberg. The court so clearly found
that copyright and contract do not overlap precisely because of the
requirement of agreement in a contract and the absence in copyright.
Sorry, these are going to be long:

--
But are rights created by contract

"equivalent to any of the exclusive rights within the

general scope of copyright"? Three courts of appeals

have answered "no." National Car Rental Systems, Inc. v.

Computer Associates International, Inc., 991 F.2d 426,

433 (8th Cir. 1993); Taquino v. Teledyne Monarch

Rubber, 893 F.2d 1488, 1501 (5th Cir. 1990); Acorn

Structures, Inc. v. Swantz, 846 F.2d 923, 926 (4th Cir.

1988). The district court disagreed [**21] with these

decisions, 908 F. Supp. at 658, but we think them sound.

Rights "equivalent to any of the exclusive rights within

the general scope of copyright" are rights established by

law--rights that restrict the options of persons who are

strangers to the author. Copyright law forbids

duplication, public performance, and so on, unless the

person wishing to copy or perform the work gets

permission; silence means a ban on copying. A copyright

is a right against the world. Contracts, by contrast,

generally affect only their parties; strangers may do as

they please, so contracts do not create "exclusive rights."

--

But whether a

particular license is generous or restrictive, a simple twoparty

contract is not "equivalent to any of the exclusive

rights within the general scope of copyright" and

therefore may be enforced.

--

National Car

Rental likewise recognizes the possibility that some

applications of the law of contract could interfere with

the attainment of national objectives and therefore come

within the domain of ß 301(a). But general enforcement

of shrinkwrap licenses of the kind before us does not

create such interference.

You have a driver's license. This gives you the privilege of
driving a car so long as you comply with the laws. But it's crazy to
argue that the driver's license law means you can drive a car you
leased from Hertz into Canada when the agreement you signed with
Hertz said you would keep the car in the United States. This is true
even though you have a fundamental right to International travel.

LOL! You don't have a fundamental right to International travel with a
car that isn't yours.



Exactly. When you got the car, you agreed to limit what would
otherwise be a right in exchange for the car. Similarly, when you consent
to a shrink wrap agreement or license, you agree to limit what would
otherwise be a right in exchange for the product.


You can contract away fundamental rights, so long as the contract
is not unconscionable. Such contracts are enforceable. Congress does
not have the power to impair contractual limitations. The
Constitution says so.

No it does not. The US Constitution says NO STATE has the the power to
impair contractual limitations.



James Madison wrote:

Bills of attainder, ex post facto laws, and laws impairing the obligation
of contracts, are contrary to the first principles of the social compact,
and to every principle of sound legislation. The two former are expressly
prohibited by the declarations prefixed to some of the State
constitutions, and all of them are prohibited by the spirit and scope of
these fundamental charters. Our own experience has taught us,
nevertheless, that additional fences against these dangers ought not to
be omitted.

Congress can limit the obligation of contracts in some ways. The
Federal bankrupcy laws are an example. However there simply is no Federal
legislative power to modify contracts or excuse people from their
obligations under them.

Quoting Jacob Hornberger, "The states were prohibited from impairing
the obligation of contracts and the federal government was not given a
power to impair contracts." For a good Supreme Court cite, see Pension
Benefit Guaranty Corporation v. R. A. Gray and Company, 467 US 717, 1984.
It says, essentially, that Federal laws impairing the obligation of
contracts are examined under a lesser level of scrutiny. The legal
grounds would be that laws impairing the right to contract are examined
under due process.

But simply put, what you are claiming is just preposterous. I defy
you to find one cite from an even remotely reputable source that suggests
that shrink wrap agreements can't create restrictions on use not found
under copyright. I defy you to find one cite that even suggests that fair
use is a "right" that a contract cannot limit.

I can find any number of cites to the contrary, though many are not
direct because the argument is so absurd.

From Henry Gabriel, professor of commercial law at Loyola, talking
about shrink wrap agreements on books, says that if you use a work "with
knowledge or having access to the terms of the licesne, you're probably
bound to the terms. That doesn't make all the terms enforeable. You still
might not be bound to terms that are unreasonable."

From a UT law school summary of ProCD v. Zeidenberg, "The ProCD court
found that shrinkwrap licenses were enforceable, including terms that may
take away important rights granted to software and database users under
federal copyright law."

From Kohrman, Jackson and Grantz, discussing Bowers v. Baystate
Technologies, the "court has held that the fair use exception may be
excluded by the terms of a shrink-wrap license" and "Given the facts of
this case, and applying Massachusetts law, the court held the shrink-wrap
agreement enforceable and Baystate's reverse engineering a violation of
its agreement with Bowers. The Copyright Act exception for fair use, the
court ruled, did not pre-empt the state law result."

And, "...a state can permit parties to contract away a fair use
defense or to agree not to engage in uses of copyrighted material that
are permitted by the copyright law, if the contract is freely
negotiated...A freely negotiated agreement represents the 'extra element'
that prevents preemption of a state law claim that would otherwise be
identical to the infringement claim barred by the fair use defense of
reverse engineering...However, state law giving effect to shrink-wrap
licenses is no different in substance from a hypothetical black dot law.
Like any other contract of adhesion, the only choice offered to the
purchaser is to avoid making the purchase in the first place. ...State
law thus gives the copyright holder the ability to eliminate the fair use
defense in each and every instance at its option. In doing so, as the
majority concedes, it authorizes 'shrink-wrap agreements...[that] are far
broader than the protection afforded by copyright law.'"

If you need to lie, then just don't reply.



If you're incapable of being polite, don't reply.

Of course, the contract cannot be uncoinscionable. You must
genuinely agreed to it. And there can be reasonable questions over
whether or not you actually violated it.

LOL!


That's about at the same level as "that's what you think".

DS
 
Bob said:
Please do as the rest of us, and killfile kurt.

If you are in pain, maybe you should consider suicide. "Suicide is
Painless!"

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 

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