I wonder if EFF will sue Microsoft.

[Greg Rozelle]

(Part Rant, part comment)
I wonder if EFF will sue Microsoft.

I am sure this comment will be deleted from the Microsoft News but it
will still be on google.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/005104.php'

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/1640/159/

Note. It takes a lot to get notice by the EFF.

Imagine if quickbooks got deleted.

Sorry, you can not get paid Microsoft deleted quickbooks.

Imagine if a virus scanner you use got deleted and you got a virus and
lost all your software.

If anybody reading this from major companies.
Dell, Compaq,Hp etc do not get Vista on your computers


Microsoft may have finally alienated enough customers. They did me

[Vista reserves the For instance, Vista's EULA limits the numbers of
copies that can be made (allowing only one for backup purposes).
The anti-virus program that comes with Vista reserves the
right to delete any programs it deems dangerous without
permission, even though this could mean the removal of
legitimate and useful software (or prevent other software
from working). And the EULA warns users that "you may not
work around any technical limitations of the software."]


Microsoft and wal-mart has lost any sale of me buying a computer
unless it has Mac or Linux.


This will be good time for custom computers to build computers that
don't have Vista.


Yes. I know I already said some this earlier. But Eff is now
involved.


Greg P Rozelle

 

[Rock]

(Part Rant, part comment)
I wonder if EFF will sue Microsoft.

I am sure this comment will be deleted from the Microsoft News but it
will still be on google.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/005104.php'

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/1640/159/

Note. It takes a lot to get notice by the EFF.

Imagine if quickbooks got deleted.

Sorry, you can not get paid Microsoft deleted quickbooks.

Imagine if a virus scanner you use got deleted and you got a virus and
lost all your software.

If anybody reading this from major companies.
Dell, Compaq,Hp etc do not get Vista on your computers


Microsoft may have finally alienated enough customers. They did me

[Vista reserves the For instance, Vista's EULA limits the numbers of
copies that can be made (allowing only one for backup purposes).
The anti-virus program that comes with Vista reserves the
right to delete any programs it deems dangerous without
permission, even though this could mean the removal of
legitimate and useful software (or prevent other software
from working). And the EULA warns users that "you may not
work around any technical limitations of the software."]

Microsoft and wal-mart has lost any sale of me buying a computer
unless it has Mac or Linux.

This will be good time for custom computers to build computers that
don't have Vista.

Yes. I know I already said some this earlier. But Eff is now
involved.

There is no anti-virus that comes with Vista. Go to Mac or Linux. Who
cares what you do.

 

[DanS]

@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl:

[Vista reserves the For instance, Vista's EULA limits the numbers of
copies that can be made (allowing only one for backup purposes).
The anti-virus program that comes with Vista reserves the
right to delete any programs it deems dangerous without
permission, even though this could mean the removal of
legitimate and useful software (or prevent other software
from working). And the EULA warns users that "you may not
work around any technical limitations of the software."]

Microsoft and wal-mart has lost any sale of me buying a computer
unless it has Mac or Linux.

This will be good time for custom computers to build computers that
don't have Vista.

Yes. I know I already said some this earlier. But Eff is now
involved.

There is no anti-virus that comes with Vista. Go to Mac or Linux. Who
cares what you do.

No, there is no anti-virus, but there is Windows Defender.

While the OP may come across as a rambling moron to you, what he speaks
is the truth. I've read several articles about how DRM is implemented in
Vista, and oddly enough, I read the entire EULA earlier this afternoon
for no good reason. There are different EULA's for the different flavors
of Vista available, and it seems as though you have different right's
depending on the version you buy.

And it says right in the EULA that Defender, if activated, that s/w it
finds that it deems is a threat will be automatically be deleted.

It then continues on....'Removing or disabling potentially unwanted
software may result in other software on your computer ceasing to work,
or your breaching a license to use other software on your computer.

And......By using this software, it is possible that you will also remove
or disable software that is not potentially unwanted software.

Of course, that is with Defender in it's default state. Apparently, you
can change the setting's, but the problem is, it installs like that by
default.

But seriously Rock, Vista is just another step towards consumer's losing
all control over their PC.

These items need to be talked about....so you've built a killer system
using top-notch multimedia components for an HD home theatre system,
complete with ATSC HD TV tuners, hi-end Surround audio, and a multimedia
projector. You're just waiting for Blu-Ray drive to come down in price
($800's a bit steep), so in 6 or 8 months you pick one up for 5 or $600.
Then you decide to upgrade to Vista, you know, the latest is always
better (sic), bite the bullet and do an upgrade, only to find out your
Blu-Ray DVD's are down-sampled and the pictures worse than a regular DVD.

That's just one scenario.

So while the OP may have come across as the 'the sky is falling', he's
right, there is a concern for the future.

Sadly, there's nothing we can do about it. Vista will be a 'success'
strictly because OEM's will stop offering XP shortly, and we all know MS
OS sales are almost ALL OEM sales. Actual retail sales.....people
deciding to buy it and committing other money to it, making an effort to
go to a store, and install it themselves, are very....very small.

My thought is Vista will be just as successful as Windows Millenium

 

[Curt Christianson]

Why, and on what grounds would EFF sue MS?
First off, much of what is quoted is BS, especially in Geists' column. Do a
little research before going off half-cocked with your "facts". Especially
read the specifics about the "AV" that ships with Vista, how Windows
Defender could render my applications inoperable.....(the sky is falling!).
AdAware and Spybot could render some of my apps. inoperable too--the ones
that contain malware. So what. They also warn of that in *their* EULA's.
Obviously Geist has no clue when it comes to the workings of MS products,
and I'd like to have seen a few references to his claims.

Learn to read and research on your own, rather than trust someone who hasn't
a clue.

Even if *everything* you and these others claim, if it's in the EULA, what
is there to sue about??

--
Curt

http://dundats.mvps.org/
http://www.aumha.org/


| (Part Rant, part comment)
| I wonder if EFF will sue Microsoft.
|
| I am sure this comment will be deleted from the Microsoft News but it
| will still be on google.
|
| http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/005104.php'
|
| http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/1640/159/
|
| Note. It takes a lot to get notice by the EFF.
|
| Imagine if quickbooks got deleted.
|
| Sorry, you can not get paid Microsoft deleted quickbooks.
|
| Imagine if a virus scanner you use got deleted and you got a virus and
| lost all your software.
|
| If anybody reading this from major companies.
| Dell, Compaq,Hp etc do not get Vista on your computers
|
|
| Microsoft may have finally alienated enough customers. They did me
|
| [Vista reserves the For instance, Vista's EULA limits the numbers of
| copies that can be made (allowing only one for backup purposes).
| The anti-virus program that comes with Vista reserves the
| right to delete any programs it deems dangerous without
| permission, even though this could mean the removal of
| legitimate and useful software (or prevent other software
| from working). And the EULA warns users that "you may not
| work around any technical limitations of the software."]
|
|
| Microsoft and wal-mart has lost any sale of me buying a computer
| unless it has Mac or Linux.
|
|
| This will be good time for custom computers to build computers that
| don't have Vista.
|
|
| Yes. I know I already said some this earlier. But Eff is now
| involved.
|
|
| Greg P Rozelle
|
|

 

[Greg Rozelle]

@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl:

[Vista reserves the For instance, Vista's EULA limits the numbers of
copies that can be made (allowing only one for backup purposes).
The anti-virus program that comes with Vista reserves the
right to delete any programs it deems dangerous without
permission, even though this could mean the removal of
legitimate and useful software (or prevent other software
from working). And the EULA warns users that "you may not
work around any technical limitations of the software."]

Microsoft and wal-mart has lost any sale of me buying a computer
unless it has Mac or Linux.

This will be good time for custom computers to build computers that
don't have Vista.

Yes. I know I already said some this earlier. But Eff is now
involved.

There is no anti-virus that comes with Vista. Go to Mac or Linux. Who
cares what you do.

No, there is no anti-virus, but there is Windows Defender.

While the OP may come across as a rambling moron to you, what he speaks
is the truth. I've read several articles about how DRM is implemented in
Vista, and oddly enough, I read the entire EULA earlier this afternoon
for no good reason. There are different EULA's for the different flavors
of Vista available, and it seems as though you have different right's
depending on the version you buy.

And it says right in the EULA that Defender, if activated, that s/w it
finds that it deems is a threat will be automatically be deleted.

It then continues on....'Removing or disabling potentially unwanted
software may result in other software on your computer ceasing to work,
or your breaching a license to use other software on your computer.

And......By using this software, it is possible that you will also remove
or disable software that is not potentially unwanted software.

Of course, that is with Defender in it's default state. Apparently, you
can change the setting's, but the problem is, it installs like that by
default.

But seriously Rock, Vista is just another step towards consumer's losing
all control over their PC.

These items need to be talked about....so you've built a killer system
using top-notch multimedia components for an HD home theatre system,
complete with ATSC HD TV tuners, hi-end Surround audio, and a multimedia
projector. You're just waiting for Blu-Ray drive to come down in price
($800's a bit steep), so in 6 or 8 months you pick one up for 5 or $600.
Then you decide to upgrade to Vista, you know, the latest is always
better (sic), bite the bullet and do an upgrade, only to find out your
Blu-Ray DVD's are down-sampled and the pictures worse than a regular DVD.

That's just one scenario.

So while the OP may have come across as the 'the sky is falling', he's
right, there is a concern for the future.

Sadly, there's nothing we can do about it. Vista will be a 'success'
strictly because OEM's will stop offering XP shortly, and we all know MS
OS sales are almost ALL OEM sales. Actual retail sales.....people
deciding to buy it and committing other money to it, making an effort to
go to a store, and install it themselves, are very....very small.

My thought is Vista will be just as successful as Windows Millenium

If Windows Defender can be totally disabled. Then why do all the
sites I came across not say this. This would prevent software from
needed software from being deleted.

I think people are also confused with this-the EULA warns users that
"you may not work around any technical limitations of the software"
This Eula need to be more clear on what type if technical stuff you
can and can not do.
..


Greg Rozelle

 

[Curt Christianson]

Read #6 about WD. It says "If it's turned on..."

You are obviously getting your info. from the wrong sites. And I think most
people have a pretty good idea of "you may not work around any technical
limitations of the software" means. There will be those that may claim
ignorance of it's meaning to justify what that want to do, but those types
have always been around.

See here:
http://download.microsoft.com/docum...lish_d16c019b-fa71-4fc9-a51d-a0621bddb153.pdf


--
Curt

http://dundats.mvps.org/
http://www.aumha.org/


| On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 03:53:06 +0100 (CET), DanS
|
| >@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl:
| >
| >
| >>> [Vista reserves the For instance, Vista's EULA limits the numbers of
| >>> copies that can be made (allowing only one for backup purposes).
| >>> The anti-virus program that comes with Vista reserves the
| >>> right to delete any programs it deems dangerous without
| >>> permission, even though this could mean the removal of
| >>> legitimate and useful software (or prevent other software
| >>> from working). And the EULA warns users that "you may not
| >>> work around any technical limitations of the software."]
| >>>
| >>> Microsoft and wal-mart has lost any sale of me buying a computer
| >>> unless it has Mac or Linux.
| >>>
| >>> This will be good time for custom computers to build computers that
| >>> don't have Vista.
| >>>
| >>> Yes. I know I already said some this earlier. But Eff is now
| >>> involved.
| >>
| >> There is no anti-virus that comes with Vista. Go to Mac or Linux. Who
| >> cares what you do.
| >
| >No, there is no anti-virus, but there is Windows Defender.
| >
| >While the OP may come across as a rambling moron to you, what he speaks
| >is the truth. I've read several articles about how DRM is implemented in
| >Vista, and oddly enough, I read the entire EULA earlier this afternoon
| >for no good reason. There are different EULA's for the different flavors
| >of Vista available, and it seems as though you have different right's
| >depending on the version you buy.
| >
| >And it says right in the EULA that Defender, if activated, that s/w it
| >finds that it deems is a threat will be automatically be deleted.
| >
| >It then continues on....'Removing or disabling potentially unwanted
| >software may result in other software on your computer ceasing to work,
| >or your breaching a license to use other software on your computer.
| >
| >And......By using this software, it is possible that you will also remove
| >or disable software that is not potentially unwanted software.
| >
| >Of course, that is with Defender in it's default state. Apparently, you
| >can change the setting's, but the problem is, it installs like that by
| >default.
| >
| >But seriously Rock, Vista is just another step towards consumer's losing
| >all control over their PC.
| >
| >These items need to be talked about....so you've built a killer system
| >using top-notch multimedia components for an HD home theatre system,
| >complete with ATSC HD TV tuners, hi-end Surround audio, and a multimedia
| >projector. You're just waiting for Blu-Ray drive to come down in price
| >($800's a bit steep), so in 6 or 8 months you pick one up for 5 or $600.
| >Then you decide to upgrade to Vista, you know, the latest is always
| >better (sic), bite the bullet and do an upgrade, only to find out your
| >Blu-Ray DVD's are down-sampled and the pictures worse than a regular DVD.
| >
| >That's just one scenario.
| >
| >So while the OP may have come across as the 'the sky is falling', he's
| >right, there is a concern for the future.
| >
| >Sadly, there's nothing we can do about it. Vista will be a 'success'
| >strictly because OEM's will stop offering XP shortly, and we all know MS
| >OS sales are almost ALL OEM sales. Actual retail sales.....people
| >deciding to buy it and committing other money to it, making an effort to
| >go to a store, and install it themselves, are very....very small.
| >
| >My thought is Vista will be just as successful as Windows Millenium
|
|
| If Windows Defender can be totally disabled. Then why do all the
| sites I came across not say this. This would prevent software from
| needed software from being deleted.
|
| I think people are also confused with this-the EULA warns users that
| "you may not work around any technical limitations of the software"
| This Eula need to be more clear on what type if technical stuff you
| can and can not do.
| .
|
|
| Greg Rozelle

 

[Curt Christianson]

Product Use Rights-MS Vista

http://www.microsoftvolumelicensing.com/userights/ProductPage.aspx?pid=232

The bottom line is, and always has been, if you don't like the EULA and TOS,
don't buy it.

--
Curt

http://dundats.mvps.org/
http://www.aumha.org/


| On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 03:53:06 +0100 (CET), DanS
|
| >@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl:
| >
| >
| >>> [Vista reserves the For instance, Vista's EULA limits the numbers of
| >>> copies that can be made (allowing only one for backup purposes).
| >>> The anti-virus program that comes with Vista reserves the
| >>> right to delete any programs it deems dangerous without
| >>> permission, even though this could mean the removal of
| >>> legitimate and useful software (or prevent other software
| >>> from working). And the EULA warns users that "you may not
| >>> work around any technical limitations of the software."]
| >>>
| >>> Microsoft and wal-mart has lost any sale of me buying a computer
| >>> unless it has Mac or Linux.
| >>>
| >>> This will be good time for custom computers to build computers that
| >>> don't have Vista.
| >>>
| >>> Yes. I know I already said some this earlier. But Eff is now
| >>> involved.
| >>
| >> There is no anti-virus that comes with Vista. Go to Mac or Linux. Who
| >> cares what you do.
| >
| >No, there is no anti-virus, but there is Windows Defender.
| >
| >While the OP may come across as a rambling moron to you, what he speaks
| >is the truth. I've read several articles about how DRM is implemented in
| >Vista, and oddly enough, I read the entire EULA earlier this afternoon
| >for no good reason. There are different EULA's for the different flavors
| >of Vista available, and it seems as though you have different right's
| >depending on the version you buy.
| >
| >And it says right in the EULA that Defender, if activated, that s/w it
| >finds that it deems is a threat will be automatically be deleted.
| >
| >It then continues on....'Removing or disabling potentially unwanted
| >software may result in other software on your computer ceasing to work,
| >or your breaching a license to use other software on your computer.
| >
| >And......By using this software, it is possible that you will also remove
| >or disable software that is not potentially unwanted software.
| >
| >Of course, that is with Defender in it's default state. Apparently, you
| >can change the setting's, but the problem is, it installs like that by
| >default.
| >
| >But seriously Rock, Vista is just another step towards consumer's losing
| >all control over their PC.
| >
| >These items need to be talked about....so you've built a killer system
| >using top-notch multimedia components for an HD home theatre system,
| >complete with ATSC HD TV tuners, hi-end Surround audio, and a multimedia
| >projector. You're just waiting for Blu-Ray drive to come down in price
| >($800's a bit steep), so in 6 or 8 months you pick one up for 5 or $600.
| >Then you decide to upgrade to Vista, you know, the latest is always
| >better (sic), bite the bullet and do an upgrade, only to find out your
| >Blu-Ray DVD's are down-sampled and the pictures worse than a regular DVD.
| >
| >That's just one scenario.
| >
| >So while the OP may have come across as the 'the sky is falling', he's
| >right, there is a concern for the future.
| >
| >Sadly, there's nothing we can do about it. Vista will be a 'success'
| >strictly because OEM's will stop offering XP shortly, and we all know MS
| >OS sales are almost ALL OEM sales. Actual retail sales.....people
| >deciding to buy it and committing other money to it, making an effort to
| >go to a store, and install it themselves, are very....very small.
| >
| >My thought is Vista will be just as successful as Windows Millenium
|
|
| If Windows Defender can be totally disabled. Then why do all the
| sites I came across not say this. This would prevent software from
| needed software from being deleted.
|
| I think people are also confused with this-the EULA warns users that
| "you may not work around any technical limitations of the software"
| This Eula need to be more clear on what type if technical stuff you
| can and can not do.
| .
|
|
| Greg Rozelle

 

[Greg Rozelle]

Correcting post

@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl:

[Vista reserves the For instance, Vista's EULA limits the numbers of
copies that can be made (allowing only one for backup purposes).
The anti-virus program that comes with Vista reserves the
right to delete any programs it deems dangerous without
permission, even though this could mean the removal of
legitimate and useful software (or prevent other software
from working). And the EULA warns users that "you may not
work around any technical limitations of the software."]

Microsoft and wal-mart has lost any sale of me buying a computer
unless it has Mac or Linux.

This will be good time for custom computers to build computers that
don't have Vista.

Yes. I know I already said some this earlier. But Eff is now
involved.

There is no anti-virus that comes with Vista. Go to Mac or Linux. Who
cares what you do.

No, there is no anti-virus, but there is Windows Defender.

While the OP may come across as a rambling moron to you, what he speaks
is the truth. I've read several articles about how DRM is implemented in
Vista, and oddly enough, I read the entire EULA earlier this afternoon
for no good reason. There are different EULA's for the different flavors
of Vista available, and it seems as though you have different right's
depending on the version you buy.

And it says right in the EULA that Defender, if activated, that s/w it
finds that it deems is a threat will be automatically be deleted.

It then continues on....'Removing or disabling potentially unwanted
software may result in other software on your computer ceasing to work,
or your breaching a license to use other software on your computer.

And......By using this software, it is possible that you will also remove
or disable software that is not potentially unwanted software.

Of course, that is with Defender in it's default state. Apparently, you
can change the setting's, but the problem is, it installs like that by
default.

But seriously Rock, Vista is just another step towards consumer's losing
all control over their PC.

These items need to be talked about....so you've built a killer system
using top-notch multimedia components for an HD home theatre system,
complete with ATSC HD TV tuners, hi-end Surround audio, and a multimedia
projector. You're just waiting for Blu-Ray drive to come down in price
($800's a bit steep), so in 6 or 8 months you pick one up for 5 or $600.
Then you decide to upgrade to Vista, you know, the latest is always
better (sic), bite the bullet and do an upgrade, only to find out your
Blu-Ray DVD's are down-sampled and the pictures worse than a regular DVD.

That's just one scenario.

So while the OP may have come across as the 'the sky is falling', he's
right, there is a concern for the future.

Sadly, there's nothing we can do about it. Vista will be a 'success'
strictly because OEM's will stop offering XP shortly, and we all know MS
OS sales are almost ALL OEM sales. Actual retail sales.....people
deciding to buy it and committing other money to it, making an effort to
go to a store, and install it themselves, are very....very small.

My thought is Vista will be just as successful as Windows Millenium

If Windows Defender can be totally disabled. Then why do all the
sites I came across not say this. This would prevent software from
being deleted.

I think people are also confused with this-the EULA warns users that
"you may not work around any technical limitations of the software"
This Eula need to be more clear on what type if technical stuff you
can and can not do.


..

Greg Rozelle

 

[Greg Rozelle]

You are obviously getting your info. from the wrong sites. And I think most
people have a pretty good idea of "you may not work around any technical
limitations of the software" means. There will be those that may claim
ignorance of it's meaning to justify what that want to do, but those types
have always been around.

I know some about contract law.

Actual that is where you are wrong. Contracts must be clear on what
you can and can not do in any state and possible any country. This
Eula is not clear. So yes the EFF and consumers could possible go
after Microsoft.

I didn' t know you could disable the Windows defender. Eff needs to
know this.

I though Microsoft would of learn to write a better EULA. It now even
more complicated for each version of Vista

I do appoligize to Microsoft for thinking that Windows defender could
not be disabled. I was mislead by some websites not getting the
facts correct.

One time follow up set to
misc.consumers,misc.consumers.frugal-living,
microsoft.public.windowsxp,uk.people.consumers,
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

Greg Rozelle
Disclaimer
View express are not meant to be derogatory in anyway shape or form..

 

[DanS]

Product Use Rights-MS Vista

http://www.microsoftvolumelicensing.com/userights/ProductPage.aspx?pid=
232

The bottom line is, and always has been, if you don't like the EULA
and TOS, don't buy it.

And the bottom line has always been that MS does not show you the EULA
until Windows is purchased, opened, and mostly installed. (Although I
didn't necessarily see it mentioned in the EULA I read online, all
earlier versions of Windows did) MS says that you can NOT agree to it,
cancel installation and return the software. Have you ever tried to
return open software to a store ?

And Curt, you have to remember, you & I are not like 90+% of the PC users
out there. That majority has no clue about any of the techno mumbo-jumbo.
The EULA is just confusing and not plain, easily understood English to
that 90+% of users. MS banks on this, to absolve MS of everything once
the 'I agree' is clicked.

 

[Curt Christianson]

I have to agree with you there Dan. Most do not read the EULA's (and
wouldn't like them if they did!).
I'll be the first to admit, I don't like all aspects of MS's either, but
I'll accept it because I *do* want to use their products.
Maybe if the "Big Box Stores" won't take back our opened MS products after
we view the EULA, we could send it back directly to MS??
Ya think? ;-))
--
Curt

http://dundats.mvps.org/
http://www.aumha.org/


| |
| > Product Use Rights-MS Vista
| >
| > http://www.microsoftvolumelicensing.com/userights/ProductPage.aspx?pid=
| > 232
| >
| > The bottom line is, and always has been, if you don't like the EULA
| > and TOS, don't buy it.
| >
|
| And the bottom line has always been that MS does not show you the EULA
| until Windows is purchased, opened, and mostly installed. (Although I
| didn't necessarily see it mentioned in the EULA I read online, all
| earlier versions of Windows did) MS says that you can NOT agree to it,
| cancel installation and return the software. Have you ever tried to
| return open software to a store ?
|
| And Curt, you have to remember, you & I are not like 90+% of the PC users
| out there. That majority has no clue about any of the techno mumbo-jumbo.
| The EULA is just confusing and not plain, easily understood English to
| that 90+% of users. MS banks on this, to absolve MS of everything once
| the 'I agree' is clicked.
|
|
|
|