Stop Steve, the advertising machine

[Keith]

I wasn't going to take the bait on this thread and I don't want to offend
anyone but ...

IMHO a one liner saying 'this is too difficult to resolve here, contact me
if you want my help' is just a little too far the wrong side of the line for
me. A while ago I tried to help someone on here and the thread ended up
running to about 20 postings, just me and this other person. At the end,
she e-mailed me via my web site and asked me to take the project on. I
accepted and made money out of it. At no point did I say 'contact me if you
want my help', the free option always came first.

I usually include a link to my web site in postings and I have had people
approach me but I don't actively encourage it. This to me encapsulates the
'spirit' of this ng another poster has spoken of.

2p supplied.
Keith.

 

[Guest]

Newcomers to the newsgroup may not understand that it is not a sort of yellow
pages. That aside, if for whatever reason you refuse use your signature line
to link to your website or something like that, then the next best thing
would be for you to follow a suggestion you made in another part of this
thread to state that when you suggest that somebody e-mail you you are
offering paid consulting services and not free advice.

 

[Tim Marshall]

you want I will start saying "Contact me if you want my help. My fees are
very reasonable." Up until now that has always been obvious to all who
contacted me and I have avoided that to not be obtrusive.

That would simply be more of a violation of the group charter/FAQ than
what you've been doing. Why not stop altogether?

 

[Tim Marshall]

Your case your lack of
intelligence shows in the language you use. Little worms always try to make
themselves look like a big person by sprinkling their language with the
**shit** word.

And what of people who resort to baseless personal attacks and name
calling (in the post to which I am responding and others of yours on
this thread) which are _not_ based on the target's material/missives
posted on the usenet group in question?

I would say that sort of behaviour is somewhat similar to a young boy
caught with his hands on the cookie jar or found in the bathroom trying
to sneak a cigarette...

8)

 

[Craig Hornish]

Hi,
Just wanted to post and opposite view of the way Steve handles this
situation.


1. I can't believe it is a big problem that anyone who contacts Steve,
doesn't have some idea that that he is in business and it will probably cost
them to design their database. I think it is apperent with the name, and
website.

2. In the post that he is responding to that contain the "Contact me"
are post that other people have responded to in a similar way. They say
something like "With what your are asking for would require you to hire
someone. Give us smaller parts of the problem:"

3. Many people have said they will not accept other peoples files. I
assume Steve would.

4. He does answer other posts, no matter what you think of them. So he
is contributing more than just an advertising platform for his signature.
Just like anyone else with a webpage link or even an MVP (I can give a
little on the MVP but it is still a form of advertising). On a quick look
he is well over 70% straight answers compaired to "contact me".

5. The posts are all responces not a stand alone post. Maybe not a big
distinction but it doesn't clutter up any lines in my Outlook Express. Only
if you open a thread do you see those posts. So it really is not that
batent.

I just read a little about the pseudonyms and will not comment on that part.

JMHO

Craig Hornish


Hi there,
We all know Steve Santos. He *really* is an advertising and job-hunting
machine.

A lot of us have asked him *many* times and in different ways to stop his
blatant advertising.
This has been repeated for years and years now. Result: Unfortunately nada.
He just doesn't give a shit. He is only very offensive in his answers to
these requests.
Also he has been 'kill-filed' by many of us. Result: Nada.

He did not get enough answers anymore, so he went hiding his identity.
He asked questions as Ron, Tom, Rachel, Kathy, Katherine, Marie, Kristine,
Heather and ????
Steve has *clearly* been trolling with his questions.
Nobody can stop him from doing this. A troll like he is, can change his/hers
identity over and over.

It's obvious that he is *very* determined and willing to keep on
advertising.
Maybe he thinks he has the 'right' to do so because he is a 'major player'
in this and other newsgroups ?
But, I think maybe he can be forced to stop the advertising-shit.
No need for arguing, shouting or flaming (this has been done and won't
help).
I have a little and simple plan for this. It might work . . .

Since a couple of weeks now I am sort of 'chasing' his advertisings as some
of you may have noticed.
Result: Steve is *a little* annoyed.
While he accuses me of acting like I am GOD ??? , he now wishes me
'snake-hell' ????
(If you are interested: see last thread: 'MDE file shareware?')
Well I am not pretending to be any God at all. I am also not a 'major
player' in this ng, like Steve thinks he is ...
I *just* want PC DataShit to stop his advertising-shit, that's *all* I am
after.

Arno R

 

[Douglas J. Steele]

You've chosen to interpret my words in your own way. That's your perogative.
It's mine to dislike your methods. End of discussion, as far as I'm
concerned.

 

[Darryl Kerkeslager]

4. He does answer other posts, no matter what you think of them. So he
is contributing more than just an advertising platform for his signature.
Just like anyone else with a webpage link or even an MVP (I can give a
little on the MVP but it is still a form of advertising). On a quick look
he is well over 70% straight answers compaired to "contact me".

I would not call the MVP sig advertising in any way. From what I have seen
of the quality of posts from those with the MVP sig, it is well-deserved
recognition of their expertise and their helpfulness. To a newbie to this
group, or to any other MS-related group, it is a good indicator that the
person who is replying to you knows what the hell they are talking about.
If I were to go to a SQL Server, Word, Excel, or Outlook group, knowing none
of the posters, I would know right away that I could rely on the post from a
person who has the MVP designation. Nothing is universal, but from this NG,
that is my experience. For what its worth, and I know I have not read every
post, I do not recall ever having seen one of the MVPs flame, or be
discourteous (unnecessarily). Further, I have seen quite a number of humble
"I don't knows".

The MVP sig is a service and a recognition *by others*. That's quite
different.


--
Darryl Kerkeslager

Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Knowledge is power.
See www.adcritic.com/interactive/view.php?id=5927

 

[John Marshall, MVP]

Hi,
Just wanted to post and opposite view of the way Steve handles this
situation.

1. I can't believe it is a big problem that anyone who contacts Steve,
doesn't have some idea that that he is in business and it will probably
cost them to design their database. I think it is apperent with the name,
and website.

The issue is the solicitation. If one person does it, why can't everyone and
you will end up with a newsgroup full of ads rather than questions and
answers.

2. In the post that he is responding to that contain the "Contact me"
are post that other people have responded to in a similar way. They say
something like "With what your are asking for would require you to hire
someone. Give us smaller parts of the problem:"

That is two different scenarios. The first is looking for business and the
second is indicating that the request is vague and the poster would get free
help if he could be more specific in his questions.

3. Many people have said they will not accept other peoples files. I
assume Steve would.

Without knowing the author, unsolicited files should never be accepted.

4. He does answer other posts, no matter what you think of them. So he
is contributing more than just an advertising platform for his signature.
Just like anyone else with a webpage link or even an MVP (I can give a
little on the MVP but it is still a form of advertising). On a quick look
he is well over 70% straight answers compaired to "contact me".

As a member of the newsgroup he does help out and there is no issue with
having a bit of advertisement in a signature line. The MVP tag line is just
a means of indicating an individual that Microsoft has recognized for their
voluntary contributions in the newsgroups. So it lets users know that if the
poster is an MVP that the answer should be good (and free). The percentage
of straight to ads is immaterial. The "contact me" messages just tarnish
any good will the straight messages convey.

5. The posts are all responces not a stand alone post. Maybe not a big
distinction but it doesn't clutter up any lines in my Outlook Express.
Only if you open a thread do you see those posts. So it really is not
that batent.

With one message it is not a big deal, but if this type of action becomes
the norm then users will waste time downloading these messages (yes there
still are people using dial up) and reading them. You still have to open
these messages to see that it is a solicitation. Of course, he could be kill
filed, but that will also remove any of his postive posts.

I just read a little about the pseudonyms and will not comment on that
part.

I have no problem with pseudonyms. If he does not like his name, that is his
business.

JMHO

Craig Hornish

Thank you for at least stating the case in a more polite manner than Arno.

John...

 

[PC Datasheet]

Craig,

Thank you for your response!

Steve
PC Datasheet

 

[PC Datasheet]

John,

Thank you too for stating your views in a polite manner!

Steve
PC Datasheet

 

[Andreas]

Not sure I am qualified to respond to this as I am an infrequent visitor
here and admittedly am not particularly newsgroup savy or familiar with
netiquette other than watching what other people do and common sense.

But here it is anyway.

1) In respect to the following comment:

"The posts are all responces not a stand alone post. Maybe not a big
distinction but it doesn't clutter up any lines in my Outlook Express.
Only if you open a thread do you see those posts."

Well, I don't usually have the threads grouped and the number of posts
in regards to this are getting to be many! Kind of self-defeating! And
yes, I am now contributing to this

2) I am not sure of all the facts but it seems there is an admission of
using pseudonyms. Whilst I don't have a problem with someone using a
pseudonym (as per examples given by Steve), using multiple pseudonyms
and/or using a pseudonym in conjunction with one's real identity in the
context of this newsgroup amounts to deceit as far as I am concerned.

3) I think a simple solution to all of this would be:
- Post as 1 identity, using your company identity. The more legitimate
posts/answers, the more advertising.
- Remove the e-mail address and any "contact me" messages and only use
the website address as part of the signature, which in conjunction with
the below point should be "reasonable" use. This way there is no
solicitation, yet contact details are available. I don't know about
anyone else, but if I see an interesting post and there is a link
available, I will go and have a look.

4) Instead of bickering here and spending lots of time posting "fake"
messages, etc... the time could be spent putting content on the "Tips
and Tricks" section of the website. This would make any linking
legitimate. If desingned properly, the links could go to related content
whilst the page still provides the menu showing the available options
(hey, I am for hire, can I help you?).

5) Somewhat on a different track. I just had a look at the website. Just
as a little comment. The "Tips and Tricks" logo looks a lot like the
logo Microsoft uses. I don't have a problem with that whatsoever but
would suggest checking on the legality of this.

This is all I can think of right now without wading through all the
posts but may be it provides a solution for everybody. If not, I had a
chance to practice my typing skills and give my 5 cents worth.
Andreas

 

[Charlie Tame]

Don't see what all the fuss is about really. About 2 weeks ago I joined this
NG (Getting Started) because I was contemplating using Access (due almost
entirely to the fact that I have it installed, not because I like it) and
asked a general question of those who are likely to know.

I scanned the existing posts first, as is expected, and it became
immediately obvious that you are little more than a self appointed
"Authority", self opinionated, and likely to be the kind of person who
insists their advice is good even when proven otherwise. Furthermore it soon
appeared that you were simply "Advertising" and like most spammers of that
disposition, probably advertising nothing more than intellectually stolen
material for which you would claim the credit. In short, about on the same
level as a "Script Kiddie" calling himself a "Hacker".

As for everyone else here I appreciated their answers and their efforts to
render assistance. It's about a desire to help others, not about proving
some vast "Knowledge" or advertising. I imagine those who genuinely need and
appreciate tips or hints soon spot this and, like me, quickly choose who to
ignore. The really good people here don't need to advertise, so it says
something about you that you feel the need to do so - doesn't take a
genius to spot that really.

Generally, when joining a new discussion group I allow every contributor the
same amount of respect and adjust that level according to their behaviour.
Suffice to say that in my humble opinion at least you do yourself a
disservice! In short, your blatant advertising works backwards!

Have a nice day

Charlie

Follow-ups limited to "Getting Started"

 

[Keith]

Craig,

Thank you for your response!

Why not thank me for mine, because you didn't like what you read?

 

[Guest]

Your reply leaves me to wonder how as a potential new user you believe you
can effectively evaluate the validity of responses. Steve has provided some
useful answers with no strings attached, but the point of contention in this
thread is that he also in many cases jumps in with what appears to be a
solicitation. However, you are certainly in no position to claim that he is
"probably advertising nothing more than intellectually stolen material for
which [he] would claim the credit". I have answered questions here using
information I have gained from earlier answers to my own questions. There's
nothing unethical about passing along program features and built-in functions
I have learned. On the other hand, when somebody asks about disabling the
Mouse Wheel I point them straight to Lebans. For group page numbering I
point to code offered by James Brooks, and so forth.
Others who post here include web site links in their signature lines, and/or
offer links to FREE solutions to specific problems; a visitor to the web site
can see what else is available there, including consulting services. No
problem with that. If I needed consulting services for an Access project I
would start by checking links provided by some of the folks who post here.

 

[John Marshall, MVP]

However, you are certainly in no position to claim that he is
"probably advertising nothing more than intellectually stolen material for
which [he] would claim the credit".

I have answered questions here using information I have gained from
earlier
answers to my own questions.

and your real name is? If you are going to pretend to be someone else at
least remember to speak of your self in the third person.

John...

 

[Guest]

Did you understand that I was saying that the contention by somebody who
admits very little understanding of Access that most of Steve's work is
stolen intellectual property is without merit on its own? What do you mean
about if I am pretending to be somebody else I should remember to speak of
myself in the third person? I have no way of knowing if your real last name
is Marshall. Does that matter? My own last name is not very common, so I do
not choose to announce it to everybody who happens to stop by. If revealing
our real names was a requirement there would be very little activity here.
If you must know, I don't mind revealing that Bruce really is my first name.
I am not pretending to be somebody else. If I am speaking about myself I use
the first person. Anything else would be deceptive. My intention in the
quoted remark was to say:
"I, the person who identifies himself in this newsgroup as BruceM, have
answered questions in this newsgroup using information that I obtained after
I asked the same or a similar question in the past, or by reading posts with
which I had no direct connection as either a questioner or respondant, but
from which I gained information about built-in Access procedures, functions,
or methods. In describing information I obtained by such means I am
confident that passing along information contained in the Accesss Help file
or other published Microsoft sources, regardless of whether I discovered the
information on my own or was notified of its existence by a third party, does
not constitute a violation of intellectual property copyright laws. I pass
the information along freely, with no obligation expressed or implied."

However, you are certainly in no position to claim that he is
"probably advertising nothing more than intellectually stolen material for
which [he] would claim the credit".

I have answered questions here using information I have gained from
earlier
answers to my own questions.

and your real name is? If you are going to pretend to be someone else at
least remember to speak of your self in the third person.

John...

 

[Guest]

Whether your view on this individual's marketing efforts lean to right,
wrong, or indifferent, it brings to mind a phrase..."ANY exposure is good
exposure". I frequent several of the newsgroups here, and have noticed
several people shamelessly promoting themselves. One, who will remain
nameless, in the FrontPage group leaps to mind. But I can guarantee that
their web sites do get hits from people in the NGs. Some, like myself, go
there out of morbid curiosity. Others out of desperation. The why isn't
important...the fact that they go is. I'd be willing to wager a substantial
sum of money that this thread has caused a spike in PC Datasheets web stats.
So as far as trying to stop it, you're fighting a fire with gasoline. To my
mind, bravo on a masterful marketing stroke. The only way it could have been
more clever is if PC Data sheet had initiated it himself.

Its a simple matter to just go on to the next post when you encounter an ad.
So let them solicit business and provide answers to questions. Use the
knowledge, ignore the marketing, and move on.

 

[Larry Linson]

Microsoft's Rules Of Conduct state,
" We ask that you refrain from posting
advertisements or solicitations that do
not pertain directly to the intended
use and purpose of the newsgroup
or chat."

Steve, I am reading this post in comp.databases.ms-access, where you and
your sockpuppets often post, and advertise, as well as in the Microsoft
newsgroups. I refer you to the very same FAQ whose link you provided to a
user in a different thread: http://www.mvps.org/access/netiquette.htm. That
is what applies in CDMA, not the sponsored newsgroup rules.

Microsoft can, if they wish, put a stop to your posting -- if it is as
bothersome as some say, then they should complain to Microsoft. As for
posting advertising here, they should complain to your ISP and news server.

Larry

 

[Larry Linson]

The original post was not posted by

As a founding member of this newsgroup
I can tell you that advertising has always
been welcomed here. This is especially
true for our MVPs who deserve to run
ads for all the good work they do. The
only rule for advertising in this newsgroup
is to make sure that you put all your ads
in your signature line. If you just post
URLs that seem to answer a question
but actually lead to an advertisement,
that's OK too.

This was posted by an impersonator. The views that I supposedly endorse are
what Don P Mellon, XMVP, and other sockpuppets have claimed were the case.

Some might cut some slack for regular, frequent, helpful posters here, if
they broke the rules. That would be because of their heavy contributions
over time. But they do not break the rules because they respect the rules
and the spirit of the newsgroup.

Don P Mellon, XMVP, and his other sockpuppets, like PC Datasheet and his set
of sockpuppets, have no respect for the rules nor the spirit of the
newsgroup. The Mellon personae view it as a ground to carry out a vendetta
against helpful participants and the PC Datasheet personae seem to view it
as a source for salable information and his personal point of contact for
soliciting business.

Larry

 

[Neil]

It's obvious that he is *very* determined and willing to keep on
Think about it: why would he *need* to keep on advertising?? Most of us get
clients and retain relationships with them. From time to time we need new
clients, but not continuously. Someone who has a continuous need to get new
clients obviously has trouble holding onto them. That should tell everyone
something.

Neil