so much for linux

[Ruel Smith]

You are quite right and I don't know why my head spun it backwards. I
meant, as you mention below, Slackware. All the more funny because I just
finished installing Suse 9.2 (my first shot at it) and it's light years
ahead of distributions like Debian in that regard.

I haven't tried SuSE 9.2. I have 9.1, but I'm currently using Mandrake. One
newsgroup you want to visit is alt.os.linux.suse. There you'll finde Kevin
Nathan and Michael J. Tobbler very helpful. Tobbler has actually written
books on Linux. Give them my regards...

I thought Yast was supposed to resolve dependencies. It acts like it is.
Are you saying it tries but doesn't get it right?

I haven't used 9.2, but as of 9.1, you still get dependency errors in SuSE.
Most SuSE users install and use Apt. You can find out more abour it here:

http://linux01.gwdg.de/apt4rpm/home.html

Basically, you need to install Lua and 2 rpms for Apt. Then, you have to
edit your apt.sources file. I can't remember what directory its located in,
but basically you'll replace that file with one available on the website
given. The file that gets installed has only basic sources. If you want
everything to be upgradable, you need to add sources via replacing it with
the website's file. You'll have to edit the one from the website, as
they'll be sources to unstable releases and the kernel. If you upgrade the
kernel, you have to reconfigure Grub to find the new kernel. It's actually
only a couple of steps, but I'd rather not as kernel upgrades can go
haywire. Therefore, delete any references in your sources file that are
followed by "-unstable" and "kernel of the day".

Then, you'll have a commandline Apt. Open a console, "su" to root status,
and type "apt update". That'll update your sources. Now, you can install
anything you want. The first thing you'll want to install is Synaptic. Type
"apt install synaptic". Once that's installed, you now have a GUI to use
with Apt. From the KDE or Gnome menu, find Synaptic and launch it. Now you
can see what's available and choose what to upgrade. If you're running GPG,
you may run into some errors. You have to turn off GPG checking in one of
the Apt files in the same directory as your sources.

Once you're up and running, you can upgrade your entire system simply by
opening a console, getting root priv's, and typing "apt update" an "apt
upgrade". It'll upgrade every application on your system. One note of
caution: If it wants to update the entire Gnome or KDE, you need to not be
in that environment as it can cause problems. It'll ask you to verify once
it tells you what packages will get upgraded, so you won't be screwed after
you type those commands. You'll want to type 'init 3' to get out of the GUI
altogether first. Then type "init 5" when you're done.

Btw, since you apparently use Suse, how the heck do you get themes to work
in KDE? I install them through Yast and... well... and? They aren't
available in the KDE theme manager (nothing is there, AT ALL, not even
'default' like I normally see) and even when I locate the .themerc files
it says they ain't.

I USED to run SuSE. I actually like it best, but this computer likes
Mandrake better. Actually, I wish I could combine them both into one
SuperLinux... ) Your best bet is to get current info in
alt.os.linux.suse. Before you ask, please Google your questions in
groups.google.com. Everyone hates answering questions that have already
been asked.

 

[David Maynard]

David Maynard wrote:




The big reason for that was that for a long time, Linux distros did not have
sound support turned on in the kernel by default. I have no clue why...

Well, there was more to it than just that but "recompile the kernel" was
another one of those casually tossed out advices of pure terror to the
average user.

Debian's default kernel STILL doesn't have sound support.

Most problems getting Linux to run is just a few questions away for most
people.

I really do beg to differ here. For one, while it's getting better and
especially with Suse, Linux has long suffered from fractured and disjointed
configuration issues. You put something in here, but something is also
needed there, and then there is over there. And there's, too often, little
to clue the user of the connection. Like, sound won't work until you add
yourself to the audio group.

I was very impressed that Suse brought Windows networking right up.
Although, I haven't yet figured out how, or why, it sucked a host name from
DHCP different than the one I put in when I don't have my domain server
setup to provide host names. But, somehow, it picked up a previously used
host name that wasn't currently in operation.

On the other hand I was stunned to find Linux 'HOWTOs' on the CD that are
dern near prehistoric.

Linux is strange to anyone that has only used Windows his/her whole
life. When they started using Windows they were equally clueless. I've
never had a problem that asking some questions didn't at least get me on
the right path to solving, and I've only run into one problem I can't
solve.

I'm no genius. I can install and use Linux will no problems and so can
anyone else as long as they run supported hardware.

'As long as' is another problem.

 

[Ruel Smith]

Well, there was more to it than just that but "recompile the kernel" was
another one of those casually tossed out advices of pure terror to the
average user.

Debian's default kernel STILL doesn't have sound support.

Well, Debian (and its users) marches to a different drum...

I really do beg to differ here. For one, while it's getting better and
especially with Suse, Linux has long suffered from fractured and
disjointed configuration issues. You put something in here, but something
is also needed there, and then there is over there. And there's, too
often, little to clue the user of the connection. Like, sound won't work
until you add yourself to the audio group.

Well, I should have qualified Linux with SuSE or Mandrake Linux or
something, because I know there are distros out there like Gentoo that will
send a new Linux user to a mental hospital for some R&R. If you're new to
Linux, you should really stick to SuSE, Mandrake, or Xandros. With a little
experience, you can dive into Fedora or maybe even Slackware. You better be
on your toes to install Debian or Gentoo.

I was very impressed that Suse brought Windows networking right up.
Although, I haven't yet figured out how, or why, it sucked a host name
from DHCP different than the one I put in when I don't have my domain
server setup to provide host names. But, somehow, it picked up a
previously used host name that wasn't currently in operation.

SuSE is indeed an impressive distro. I really don't know why some Linux
users continue to punish themselves running some of the more arcane
distros.

On the other hand I was stunned to find Linux 'HOWTOs' on the CD that are
dern near prehistoric.

Yeah, but then Windows is like "Put cd in...click on icon..." and just
horrible to use. You almost need a degree to use the manpages, but at least
they're somewhat up to date.

'As long as' is another problem.

Well, you wouldn't hookup a Macintosh specific piece of hardware on a
Windows machine, would you? You plug in supported hardware. You need to use
supported hardware in Linux too.

 

[Ruel Smith]

Basically, you need to install Lua and 2 rpms for Apt. Then, you have to
edit your apt.sources file. I can't remember what directory its located
in

I meant sources.list file and it's in /etc/apt

 

[Matt]

Btw, Linux didn't originally plan on Linux being on anything other than
an Intel i386 machine and claimed it was doubtful it could be ported
because he had used lots of 'tricks' that were architecture specific.

I expect that was Linus's tricky way of raising the issue and getting
people to help him. Sort of like Tom Sawyer getting the boys to
whitewash the fence:

"... I reckon there ain't one boy in a thousand, maybe two thousand,
that can do it the way it's got to be done."

 

[Matt]

Ruel Smith wrote:

Windows Update has really
hurt my system in the past. Once, an update of my nVidia driver rendered my
system useless.

Hmmm ... is there something wrong with the nVidia card? Tried your
kt600 board with more than one nVidia card?

 

[David Maynard]

David Maynard wrote:




Well, Debian (and its users) marches to a different drum...




Well, I should have qualified Linux with SuSE or Mandrake Linux or
something,

At the moment I'd narrow it down to Suse, but I'm a couple of releases
behind on Redhat and Mandrake.

because I know there are distros out there like Gentoo that will
send a new Linux user to a mental hospital for some R&R.

If you're new to
Linux, you should really stick to SuSE, Mandrake, or Xandros. With a little
experience, you can dive into Fedora or maybe even Slackware. You better be
on your toes to install Debian or Gentoo.




SuSE is indeed an impressive distro. I really don't know why some Linux
users continue to punish themselves running some of the more arcane
distros.

Because the 'theory' was, supposedly, 'free' and Suse (Pro anyway) isn't.

That's a significant issue because one 'knows' that Windows is going to
'work' (sic) but paying $80 to $200 to 'experiment' with an unknown Linux
distribution is a bit of a gamble.

Yeah, but then Windows is like "Put cd in...click on icon..." and just
horrible to use. You almost need a degree to use the manpages, but at least
they're somewhat up to date.

Your earlier comment about man pages was right spot on. They're great if
you already know what you're doing (and are a programmer) but you don't
know to go looking for a 'man page "(gee Wally, who's that?) for samba when
you've never heard of it.

Well, you wouldn't hookup a Macintosh specific piece of hardware on a
Windows machine, would you? You plug in supported hardware. You need to use
supported hardware in Linux too.

Aw, come on. We're not talking about trying to hook Mac parts to a PC.
We're talking about how Windows, for whatever excuse one wants to blame it
on, will have drivers for any 'PC' hardware you can buy, be it native or
come with the add-on device, whereas you can't always count on that with Linux.

Put another way, the Linux user shops for 'supported hardware' whereas the
Windows user scraps any old thing he feels like off the shelf and fully
expects it to work.

 

[David Maynard]

I expect that was Linus's tricky way of raising the issue and getting
people to help him. Sort of like Tom Sawyer getting the boys to
whitewash the fence:

"... I reckon there ain't one boy in a thousand, maybe two thousand,
that can do it the way it's got to be done."

Nice theory but I think it's rather more like Linus didn't have a 'plan' to
'create' what Linux eventually became, years later. In fact. Linus says a
major reason for writing it was to learn about the 386.

Some interesting reading of his own posts can be found here.

http://www.li.org/linuxhistory.php

 

[Ruel Smith]

Aw, come on. We're not talking about trying to hook Mac parts to a PC.
We're talking about how Windows, for whatever excuse one wants to blame it
on, will have drivers for any 'PC' hardware you can buy, be it native or
come with the add-on device, whereas you can't always count on that with
Linux.

I think its a fair statement. Sure, Linux runs on x86, but no one ever
claimed it worked on _all_ x86 machines.

Put another way, the Linux user shops for 'supported hardware' whereas the
Windows user scraps any old thing he feels like off the shelf and fully
expects it to work.

That's the fault of the hardware OEM, and it's beginning to shift toward
Linux's favor. The next 3 years should be good ones...

 

[David Maynard]

David Maynard wrote:




I think its a fair statement. Sure, Linux runs on x86, but no one ever
claimed it worked on _all_ x86 machines.

You're doing a clever song and dance around it but it's really quite
simple. Windows works on more than Linux does.

That's the fault of the hardware OEM, and it's beginning to shift toward
Linux's favor. The next 3 years should be good ones...

I'd like to see Linux get better OEM support too but users don't care who's
'fault' it is. They just want to know that when they buy something it'll
work without having to sift through a 'supported hardware' list.

 

[Bill Turner]

That's the fault of the hardware OEM, and it's beginning to shift toward
Linux's favor. The next 3 years should be good ones...

___________________________________________________________

If you're going to assess blame, some of it must go to the legions of
Linux programmers who are not interested in writing hardware drivers.
Yes, I know the OEM's should do it, but if they don't, the Linux
community should.

This in a nutshell, has been Linux' great flaw - nobody is in charge.
Nobody is willing or able to assign a task to someone, unlike at a
'real' software house.

In all fairness, some people claim this is changing and maybe so. I'll
keep watching and see what happens. I would like Linux to succeed, if
only to keep Mr. Gates on his toes.

 

[Mac Cool]

Bill Turner:

I would like Linux to succeed, if only to keep Mr. Gates on his toes.

I think we all would.

 

[Matt]

Put another way, the Linux user shops for 'supported hardware' whereas
the Windows user scraps any old thing he feels like off the shelf and
fully expects it to work.

So if he thinks ahead a bit, an alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt reader
doesn't have to go so far out of his way to try Linux.

 

[David Maynard]

So if he thinks ahead a bit, an alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt reader
doesn't have to go so far out of his way to try Linux.

That presumes, 1. he's going to build a new computer for Linux, 2. the
'supported hardware' is as feature rich as what he would otherwise buy and,
3. he'll be satisfied later to pass up some widget he might otherwise have
bought but isn't supported.

 

[Ruel Smith]

___________________________________________________________

If you're going to assess blame, some of it must go to the legions of
Linux programmers who are not interested in writing hardware drivers.
Yes, I know the OEM's should do it, but if they don't, the Linux
community should.

No, OEM's should support their own hardware. Again, since you haven't
responded to the statement, shouldn't Windows shareware/freeware
programmers be concentrating on fixing all of Windows backdoors and all the
nasties that plague the OS? It only seems to reason, following the similar
logic you suggest for Linux developers.

This in a nutshell, has been Linux' great flaw - nobody is in charge.
Nobody is willing or able to assign a task to someone, unlike at a
'real' software house.

The "great flaw" of Linux is that users, like you, expect everything to work
out of the box despite the lack of 3rd party driver support. If you want
driver support to run Linux on your hardware, write the hardware
manufacturer and ask them about getting support for Linux.

In all fairness, some people claim this is changing and maybe so. I'll
keep watching and see what happens. I would like Linux to succeed, if
only to keep Mr. Gates on his toes.

Supposedly, Linux has something like 10% marketshare, now. However, I
believe that's including corporate workstations. It still is a significant
enough number to make OEMs start, at least, looking at the possiblity of
supporting Linux. We'll see how it goes.

Honestly, now that we have IBM, HP, Novell, and to a lesser degree, Sun
onboard, I think Linux has a very bright future.

 

[Ruel Smith]

You're doing a clever song and dance around it but it's really quite
simple. Windows works on more than Linux does.

Not "out of the box", like so many claim. You likely need 3rd party drivers
to make your hardware work. Most hardware that works with Linux at all, is
included with the distro.

 

[Ruel Smith]

So if he thinks ahead a bit, an alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt reader
doesn't have to go so far out of his way to try Linux.

Yes. If you go to your preferred Linux distro's newsgroup. ask about support
for the hardware in question ahead of time, then make your purchase based
on those recommendations, you should be fine.

I made the mistake of not doing this, and I have a problem. I'm hoping to
fix it after the holidays.

 

[Bill Turner]

No, OEM's should support their own hardware. Again, since you haven't
responded to the statement, shouldn't Windows shareware/freeware
programmers be concentrating on fixing all of Windows backdoors and all the
nasties that plague the OS? It only seems to reason, following the similar
logic you suggest for Linux developers.

No, the fixes for vulnerabilities is the responsibility of whoever wrote
the software in the first place. How is Joe Programmer going to fix
Windows even if he wanted to?

The "great flaw" of Linux is that users, like you, expect everything to work
out of the box

Had no idea I was so demanding.

Honestly, now that we have IBM, HP, Novell, and to a lesser degree, Sun
onboard, I think Linux has a very bright future.

I hope so too. I hope it gets so good that people will abandon Windows
in droves. Wouldn't that be nice? I'm dead serious... a program that
good would be wonderful. Not seeing it yet.

 

[John Doe]

Not long after I noticed Usenet in about 1996, on one of my Internet
service providers help discussion groups, two group members were
discussing Linux. One called it the "Holy Grail" of operating
systems.

No, OEM's should support their own hardware. Again, since you
haven't responded to the statement, shouldn't Windows
shareware/freeware programmers be concentrating on fixing all of
Windows backdoors and all the nasties that plague the OS? It only
seems to reason, following the similar logic you suggest for Linux
developers.


The "great flaw" of Linux is that users, like you, expect
everything to work out of the box despite the lack of 3rd party
driver support. If you want driver support to run Linux on your
hardware, write the hardware manufacturer and ask them about
getting support for Linux.

While he (or she) is waiting, he can use Windows.

Supposedly, Linux has something like 10% marketshare, now. However,
I believe that's including corporate workstations. It still is a
significant enough number to make OEMs start, at least, looking at
the possiblity of supporting Linux.

"Somewhere, over the rainbow...la la la"

Windows marketshare has been over 90% for at least five years and has
continued rising.

We'll see how it goes.

Honestly, now that we have IBM, HP, Novell, and to a lesser degree,
Sun onboard, I think Linux has a very bright future.

One of the great flaws of Linux is blind optimism.

Actually, the problem is much deeper.

The real factors are network effects and a positive feedback loop.

Network effects forces you to use file formats your
friends/partners/colleagues use.

A positive feedback loop goes something like this.
1. Consumers by Windows computers because, among other reasons, so
many applications are available for Windows.
2. Programmers write for Windows because so many consumers buy it.
3. Goto 1.

That is why, without much effort, Windows remains pegged at the top
without risk of falling.

Forward-looking, I would agree that Windows has no future. But I
don't know how far in the future. Microsoft will keep things tied
down for as long as possible. Drawing from science-fiction, the
future with robots and stuff, I can see why open-source is the only
way to go. Simply put, people won't buy conniving/secretive robots.
So we go one way or the other. We either become a world
dominated/stagnated by corporations like Microsoft, or we use open-
source products.

By the way, for those who don't know, open-source does not mean
profitless. And to the protectionists, we don't need no stinking
Microsoft, there is more than enough high technology talent here in
the United States to take up the slack. The idea that talent doesn't
exist is a myth to lower wages through outsourcing.

 

[Mac Cool]

Ruel Smith:

The "great flaw" of Linux is that users, like you, expect everything
to work out of the box

Exactly. I do expect it to work out of the box, especially when Linux
advocates are touting it as the replacement for Windows. I expect it to
actually be able to replace Windows, but it can't.

Linux advocates seem to think they have to convince everyone to stop using
Windows and start using Linux, but they don't. Once Linux is a viable
replacement for Windows it will sell itself.