so much for linux

[Bill Turner]

If anyone wants to figure out what Bill is on about, he means something
like this:

http://www.bit-tech.net/article/114/

_________________________________________________________

Now we're talkin' HOMEBUILT!

 

[Lordy]

lying? see there ya go again exaggerating

Yeah Whatever.

why exaggerate? cause that's what you guys do all the time...

What do you mean "you guys". I use both Linux and XP and dont seem to
have the hangups you think I have. Using Windows at the moment. Are all
Windows users the same?

I mostly use windows because I've started doing a lot of DVD work, and
the Windows programs are more accesible without so much of a learning
curve.

I get and give help regarding Windows programs and Linux programs and
dont seen to have the hangups you think every Linux user has, and you
appear to be demonstrating yourself.

Mandrake 10 can print to my Canon S600 and scan from my Epson Perfection
1650 out of the box and Windows XP doesnt. That is the only point I was
making. There are plenty of things, out there that dont work but for my
set up all hardware I had at the time was configured. A lot of my newer
stuff (eg USB Bluetooth sticks etc I havent tried to configure yet - but
it will obviously be less work than in Windows XP)

what good
are drivers that only work fairly good?

The default drivers installed with Mandrake do not do grat photo work
without tweaking. I had you buy some 3rd party drivers to get good photo
quality. I didnt want to, I'd rather have got rid of the Canon S600 and
got an Epson/HP on principle (but it was cheaper to spend about 30US
(IIRC) on some Canon Drivers!

I have an s540, what distro
are you using that needs no third party disk? >

Mandrake 10

 

[Lordy]

Need to update or patch? Connect to Windows Update website and it's
practically automatic. By comparison the acronym "RPM" sends people
screaming in frustration. Does the word "dependencies" make you blanch?

Some of your information is out of date.

 

[Matt]

I remember NT supporting PPC, MIPS, and Alpha processors out of the box
and at no extra cost. Market forces spoke and by the time Win 2K was
released MS had decided it was not worth their while (Alpha support made
it to Win2K beta but was dropped before final release IIRC). Virtually
all systems running NT were using x86 compatibles because of
price/performance benefits and third-party software support.

Ian

NT had several things going against it. Its design for portability and
longevity was correct but wasn't enough to save it.

Apple has taken the right approach by building a desktop and apps on top
of something that makes sense, namely BSD Unix.

 

[Matt]

None of them - not one - ever worked half as well as Windows. Most of
them had something that wouldn't work at all, usually hardware related.

These days you still have to be careful when buying hardware. You can't
yet expect to run Linux with just any hardware. That is going to change
though.

but users ultimately vote with their wallets.
Guess who won?

Nobody has won. And did you notice that Linux is gaining? For example,
IBM is switching all its internal computers to Linux. There is a
juggernaut aligning against Microsoft. See http://www.osdl.org/ and
http://groups.osdl.org/osdl_members/osdl_roster/

The look and feel of Windows, especially XP, is smooth
as silk and people like it.

Yes, and don't they just love all those viruses and worms? Linux
doesn't have any of that.

Need to update or patch? Connect to Windows Update website and it's
practically automatic. By comparison the acronym "RPM" sends people
screaming in frustration. Does the word "dependencies" make you blanch?

I just type "yum update", and it is easier than Windows--I don't have to
reboot.

 

[Matt]

_________________________________________________________

No, no, no.

I don't mean getting a bunch of parts and plugging them together. I
mean making your own castings, milling out parts, fabricating from
scratch. Anybody can plug a computer together. I'm on my sixth
homebuilt one now.

Usually the most you have to do with Linux is get some parts and plug
them together (in case you need to find a new driver). If desired or
necessary, you or anybody can do the casting and milling and fabricating
so to speak, but you don't usually have to.

Installing Linux is not harder than building a computer. Really the two
go well together because they both require some attention to hardware.

 

[JAD]

Yes, and don't they just love all those viruses and worms? Linux

doesn't have any of that.

Tell me MATT just what do you think is going to happen in the
imaginary world, when x'inux is the most widely used OS?

Hackers and code writers are going to say 'lets leave it alone'? Lets
quit now our job is done?

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. In this case the powers that be
aren't going to do a thing, untill the lambs start crying for
'security'...then they will be happy to take over. Run to the
alternatives, that's what they want. Instead of looking at the big
picture. Global scale, not your individual machine. 1 type of machine
1 type of OS 1 Government owned internet / e commerce, 1 dollar.
Easier to control. Its already started....ever try to rip using WMP
then play the jams you ripped in XP? I been telling you guys this for
over 5 years, all the nay sayers had all the reasons it would never
happen... yet here it is. The advent of 64 bit, is the actual
beginning of the end.

Linux Kernel 64 Bit ELF Header Local Denial Of Service Vulnerability



bugtraq id 11846
object
class Failure to Handle Exceptional Conditions
cve CVE-MAP-NOMATCH

remote No
local Yes
published Dec 07, 2004
updated Dec 07, 2004
vulnerable Linux kernel 2.6
Linux kernel 2.6.1 -rc2
Linux kernel 2.6.1 -rc1
Linux kernel 2.6.1
Linux kernel 2.6.2
Linux kernel 2.6.3
Linux kernel 2.6.4
Linux kernel 2.6.5
+ S.u.S.E. Linux 9.1
Linux kernel 2.6.6 rc1
Linux kernel 2.6.6
Linux kernel 2.6.7 rc1
Linux kernel 2.6.7
Linux kernel 2.6.8 rc3
Linux kernel 2.6.8 rc2
Linux kernel 2.6.8 rc1
Linux kernel 2.6.8
+ S.u.S.E. Linux 9.2
Linux kernel 2.6.9

 

[JAD]

I have an s540, what distro

Mandrake 10
Mandrakelinux for X86-64

[PWP-10164] 119.00-EUR ?

 

[Ruel Smith]

I'm writing this on a KT600 Dragon Ultra Platinum Edition with an MSI
FX5200 card and Fedora Core 3. Tuxracer works---no problem. I've also
run this with FC2 and if IIRC FC1. My mobo seems to be the successor to
yours, but seemingly has the same chipset. I could be wrong, but really
I think you can get the 3D to work. When you try, at what point do you
think it goes wrong? Are you able to install the nvidia driver?

The nVidia drivers give me absolutely nothing. I can't even get an X session
going. I can use the 'nv' drivers and get 2D. nVidia's website says that
the KT600 chipsets AGP bus is not supported, and use AGPART instead of
NVAGP. Tried that, still the same results.

I switched to an ATi 9600 card and used the ATi drivers. Everything says it
works okay. glxinfo reports that everything is correctly working. I can
even run glxgears and get framerates measured. However, if a GL screesaver
kicks in, or I start Tuxracer, it freezes. Checking the logs shows AGP
errors, but I can't remember what they are exactly.

Now, my board is a low-end model and I assume an early revision. It actually
came as a barebones kit. I don't know. I just know I've racked my brains
trying to get it to work. I'm ready to buy an nForce chipset board just to
stop the madness. I'm trying to learn Kpovmodeler but can't render
anything.

 

[Ruel Smith]

Bill Turner wrote:

Yep, if you don't count the endless hours of frustration making it work,
it's a reeeeeeal bargain, alrighty!

Hmmm... Been using Linux for 6 years now, and except for the recent AGP
problem, I've never experienced such frustration. You must not have ever
installed Linux.

 

[Ruel Smith]

_________________________________________________________

You would lose that bet. WinXP has a ton of built-in drivers that
handle everything I've thrown at it, with one exception, below. The
only purpose for the disk is to add bells and whistles if you want them.

Here's the exception. When XP first came out, I had a PCI card which
added two serial ports. At first, I had to install drivers from the CD
that came with it. A couple of years later, I gave that computer to my
mom and built another one for myself, moving that card to the new one.
To my surprise, XP now recognized the card and installed the drivers
without using the CD. That's the only exception. Everything else XP
handled all by itself.

True geeks will be unimpressed by this, but Joe User loves it.

Funny... I have an older Gigabyte GA-8IRXP board and XP can't install
drivers for most of the stuff on that board, let alone a newer board base
on a 925X chipset or something. What are you running? A Pentium 3 system?

 

[Ruel Smith]

I agree with you, it is, and I understand why Linux advocates push this
one aspect of Linux so strongly because for many years Linux was so
difficult to install and developed such a bad reputation. The real
issues with Linux have nothing to do with installation, they are all
post installation.

Yes, and distros haven gotten better at that, but there is still some work
to be done. SuSE's SaX2 is probably the best app out ther to setup your
video, but even it's still crude in some respects, but, yet, it's powerful
in other respects. However, most distros require you to use gtf to get
modelines and hack the XF86Config file. There's still work to be done...

It has been a couple of years since I stopped messing with Linux (except
for Knoppix). I tried Debian, Red Hat, Mandrake, Suse, Thin Linux and
several other distros just for the hell of it. I wanted to like it, I
tried hard to like Linux. As recently as a few years ago, Linux still
would not work properly with a USB mouse (don't start); Linux still
didn't support Firewire, it didn't support most games, basically if you
didn't own an Nvidia video card you were screwed. Open Office is not a
replacement for MS Office; it is not 100% compatible with MS files which
99% of the business world uses. The biggest complaint is the lack of
support. Yes, there are hundreds of forums, websites, newsgroups and the
manpages; but it's next to impossible to get a straight answer to even
the simplest question and for every useful reply you receive about five
RTFM replies regardless of whether the manpages answer the question.

Yes, you're right about OpenOffice, but honestly, I don't need Office for
anything and either KWrite or OpenOffice does anything I need them to do
well enough. I can userstand if you need interoperability between the 2
suites, but I've never seen competing products open the other's files with
100% compatibility. There are almost always glitches of some kind.

As far as support, I agree with you about the newsgroup forums and the RTFM
statements. There are some real jerks out there. BUT, there are some really
helpful people as well. However, there are even more, bigger jerks lurking
in the Windows forums. I don't think Windows help files are a big help,
either. And their error reporting always blames everything on some mystery
3rd party driver. The manpages are cryptic, and don't help much. You almost
have to know Linux pretty well before you bother with them. They are
getting better, though.

I've been using USB mice in Linux for about 2 years now without much hassle.
I even use a USB keyboard. It would be nice to use the extra buttons
without all the hassle of hacking the XF86Config file. The media buttons on
my MS Natural Keyboard Pro can be programmed under Gnome, but not KDE.
Again, there's still work to be done.

OTOH, Knoppix seems to be very full proof. So far I have not had any
issues with USB and it even supports my external Firewire drive. I own
an Nvidia card now so I can only say it works with Nvidia and Intel's
onboard video. Unfortunately I have no use for it except as an
occasional troubleshooting device and demo for folks who are Linux-
curious.

Knoppix is a fine distro. I was amazed when I first ran it. Out of all the
LiveCD types of distros, Knoppix still remains king. No other distro
installs and runs so effortlessly. However, rebooting is not something I
want to go through to get it up and running. I've elected to have
individual computers for the different OS's.

 

[JAD]

come ONNNNNNNN what OS has drivers native, for hardware that came out
AFTER its release....you're so predictable.....lets see who has
drivers that WORK first for 925's.

GA-8IRXP let me guess,,,it couldn't install sound drivers?
CREATIVE, so this is a surprise?

 

[JAD]

So your stuck... Call that 24hr help......o wait you can't well
then get your money back...o wait..... complain to the better
business bureau hmmmm.. bitch to the distro producer, while the '
tinker's box sits.

X-inux can be a great thing....its the chaotic small minded thinking
that gets it nowhere.

 

[Ruel Smith]

_________________________________________________________

I don't understand? Well, I was using Unix to do email back in 1989
(remember PINE?) before Microsoft even thought about it. Like I said,
I'm not a programmer but I am a well-experienced user and for me,
Windows beats Unix and it's quasi-clones hands down. I've installed so
many Linux variants I've lost count. Mandrake, Debian, SUSE, Knoppix,
even Xandros which set me back $50 and is just an elegant piece of crap.
None of them - not one - ever worked half as well as Windows. Most of
them had something that wouldn't work at all, usually hardware related.

Then you should have known that Linux is only the kernel, and it's strictly
controlled by Linus Torvalds. It's not some clusterf*ck development
project.

Microsoft has focused since day one on making its products
user-friendly, especially for the non-geek.

Let's not forget all the back door vulnerabilities they've thrown in for
good measure. Is it user friendly when you create a user account and he
can't launch certain applications without having to set it up to be run as
administrator, which is not only frustrating to the "non-geek" because it
doesn't work like the user assumed it would, but also a security problem
after it has been setup to be run as administrator? Some user
friendliness... Linux is a true multi-user operating system and has no such
"features", as Bill calls them.

I've been using Linux for about 6 years, and it's gotten just as easy to use
as Windows, if you're willing to forget what you think you know about
computers and learn a new operating system in the same manner you'd have to
do to become a Mac user. The only problem Linux really has, IMO, is that
too many users try it out with preconceptions that it'll be a lot like
Windows.

Of course, true geeks are
appalled at the results, but users ultimately vote with their wallets.
Guess who won? The look and feel of Windows, especially XP, is smooth
as silk and people like it.

Microsoft won because Mac's were too expensive and you had to go out of your
way to find one to buy. PC's were available everywhere and were cheap.
Linux wasn't even around then. Unix was expensive and wasn't even a
consumer product.

Need to update or patch? Connect to Windows Update website and it's
practically automatic. By comparison the acronym "RPM" sends people
screaming in frustration. Does the word "dependencies" make you blanch?

And so is Mandrake Update and SuSE's YaST Online Update (YOU). They update
automatically. Linux patches and updates happen in almost realtime. A
vulnerability is caught and a patch is usually released in 48 hours or
less. Microslop took over 2 years to fix the url spoofing vulnerability in
IE, and from what I read, mysteriously it reappeared after another, more
recent update patch was installed. Man...they're doing an excellent job...

Dependencies? Doesn't exist in Mandrake. URPMI has been a part of Mandrake
for a long time and does away with dependencies completely. Apt is
available to install in just about any distro, and equally gets rid of
dependencies. There's also Ximian Red Carpet Express.

Your knowledge of Linux seems to be very limited and dated...

Been there, done all that. Mr. Gates, though having the black heart of
a monopolist, focuses on his customers. The average Linux programmer
focuses on his pet projects. If the masses like his work, fine, if not,
that's fine too.

I'll pass.

Keep on passing. No one has advocated that YOU switch to Linux. Just don't
flame those that decide to.

BTW, most operating system applications like GNU software, KDE, and the
Linux kernel are developed by paid programmers working for IBM, Sun, Red
Hat, Novell, Mandrake, and others. Very few are volunteers working on their
"pet projects".

 

[Ruel Smith]

I just type "yum update", and it is easier than Windows--I don't have to
reboot.

I just recently re-installed Windows because I upgraded my 2 HDD's in my
RAID 0 setup and had to reboot soooo many times installing all of the
REQUIRED 3rd party drivers for my GA-8IRXP board and all of my add-ons and
3rd party software. It was just rediculous and made me appreciate Linux so
much more.

 

[Ruel Smith]

Some of your information is out of date.

What do you mean _some_? _ALL_ of his information is out of date.

I've been using Linux for about 6 years, and some of his claims held up as
recent as 3 years ago. However, it's drastically changed as of recent. I
use Linux everyday, right beside my Windows XP Professional based computer
and I can see the differences right before my eyes. He hasn't the foggiest
clue as to the current experience of using Linux.

 

[Ruel Smith]

It isn't uncommon for that kind of hand to do the right thing,
especially when the main intention is to build something useful. But
besides that, the creative individuals that built Unix had to do
considerable sneaking around in order to get the ball rolling.

Wasn't Unix originally built upon the requirements of "5 - nines" of
dependability that Bell required?

 

[Ruel Smith]

So your stuck... Call that 24hr help......o wait you can't    well
then get your money back...o wait.....   complain to the better
business bureau  hmmmm.. bitch to the distro producer,  while the '
tinker's  box sits.

Call Microslops 24hr help... That's exactly how long you'll be on hold
before anyone gets around to actually taking your call.

X-inux can be a great thing....its the chaotic small minded thinking
that gets it nowhere.

It's honestly the first problem of this magnitude I've ever experienced with
Linux.

 

[Ruel Smith]

come ONNNNNNNN what OS has drivers native, for hardware that came out
AFTER its release....you're so predictable.....lets see who has
drivers that WORK first for 925's.

You said it installed everything out of the box without a problem on you
machine. I said it can't do it on mine. I've installed SuSE's LiveCD and
Knoppix on their and it handled everything fine - right out of the box.

GA-8IRXP let me guess,,,it couldn't install sound drivers?
CREATIVE, so this is a surprise?

No Creative sound onboard at all, except that it does have a Soundblaster
Audigy Platinum installed in a PCI slot. Recently, I reinstalled XP and I
was surprised that it detected my GeForce Ti4600 card and installed the
nVidia driver via Windows Update for me. However, it never did that in the
past.

Windows XP is already long in the tooth and Longhorn won't be out for
another year or so.