"RTFM" is not an answer, and it's RUDE!

[DBF]

Well, since I started this discussion thread, I guess I'll put my OTHER two
cents in.
I am not opposed to the notion of telling people to read the manual or look
on the web. I just think that RTFM is a silly way to express it. It might be
some kind of commonly used term, but the reason I started this post is that
I saw a previous topic where the guy didn't know what RTFM was. In fact, the
poor guy thought that the message was blank, because all he saw was: RTFM. I
think he thought it was someone's initials.
Taking the time to *politely* suggest that someone read the manual is worth
the minimal effort needed.

It's funny you mention how people seem to be looking for magic bullets,
making no effort to learn their own equipment or solve their own problems,
or search for the answer themselves.
The magic bullet issue works both ways. I am astonished at the number of
people who respond to people's posts without having "RTFPC" {"Read The
F***ing Post Completely"), and then submit one of the following boilerplate
answers:
1) You have a virus. (I didn't)
2) You need to install the drivers. (The device used the native XP drivers.)
3) You need to reformat your hard drive. (No, I didn't)
4) Your BIOS settings are wrong. (No, they weren't)
5) Check your USB settings in Device Manager. ( This was my favorite, from
an MVP; my problem was with an EIDE drive.)
etc,
Anyway, I had better quit while I'm ahead, or behind, not sure which. I'd
better go "RTFLM". ("Read The F***ing Life Manual")
Dave

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Len;
A major point is not so much what you suggest people do as much as how
the suggestion is made.
These newsgroups are a very diverse community and we should take that
into consideration in our replies.
Some of the comments do very little constructive and also discourage
those who need help.
If a comment is going to offend some readers, we should reconsider
before making the comment.

A little courtesy and understanding goes a long way.

 

[Cerridwen]

Maybe I'm jumping in late or speaking out of turn but RTFM is a useful
response. Maybe not in its literal context but as a pointer to many
who have not taken the time actually learn about their equipment!

There are times when people who post here have not even read the
posts from the day before which actually answered their question
(often for the 4th or 5th time).

There are those who feel indisposed to help themselves but rather
expect others to provide the "magic formula" to resolve all of their
computer related problems. They are the same ones who will rant
because someone 5,000 miles from their computer can not provide that
"magic formula"!
Precisely!


There was a comical (but with a grain of truth) about customers who
would call tech support for assistance but had taken made no effort
to learn their equipment. The film called them "12 oclock flashers"
because that is how all the appliances with a time display appeared.
Obviously not the type who RTFM.

I can picture that type getting on the NG and asking "how do we set
the time on our VCR?" They would provide no further information and
then lash out at anyone who suggests they read their manual for the
appropriate steps to take!

Exactly!


Oh well, enough of my ranting, it is just something that bugs me.
People come to the NG for information but don't read the previous
posts... they buy equipment but don't read the manuals!

Amen, brother!

 

[cquirke (MVP Win9x)]

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:37:15 -0700, "Jupiter Jones [MVP]"

When people feel insulted, they tend to not come back to be treated
rudely again.

There are certain situations where that is appropriate, as in "a
gentleman is one who is never unintentionally rude". After all...

------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

Rudeness is human nature's way of curbing demand

 

[Frank]

Here's a quote from the the site Bruce Chambers has in his sig:

RTFM and STFW: How To Tell You've Seriously Screwed Up
There is an ancient and hallowed tradition: if you get a reply that reads
“RTFM”, the person who sent it thinks you should have Read The F*****g
Manual. He is almost certainly right. Go read it.

RTFM has a younger relative. If you get a reply that reads “STFW”, the
person who sent it thinks you should have Searched The F*****g Web. He is
almost certainly right. Go search it.

In Web forums, you may also be told to search the forum archives. In fact,
someone may even be so kind as to provide a pointer to the previous thread
where this problem was solved. But do not rely on this consideration; do
your archive-searching before asking.

Often, the person telling you to do a search has the manual or the web page
with the information you need open, and is looking at it as he types. These
replies mean that he thinks (a) the information you need is easy to find,
and (b) you will learn more if you seek out the information than if you have
it spoon-fed to you.

You shouldn't be offended by this; by Usenet standards, he is showing you a
rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you. You should instead thank
him for his grandmotherly kindness.

I couldn't agree more with the above. Computer illiteracy is *NOT* an
excuse. It doesn't take any computer literacy at all (well hardly any) to
type a search term into Google. It doesn't take any computer literacy at all
(merely the other sort) to read a manual. The repeated posting of the same
questions, day in, day out, shows one thing, people are coming here,
expecting to have their arses wiped for them and, what's worse, people are
obliging. It's the Usenet equivalent of doing someone's homework for them!
Sure, they might get an A, but what have they learnt? Nothing. Here's food
for thought: -

Spoonfeed someone an answer and they're satisfied for now. Teach them how to
find their own answers and, hopefully, they'll be statisfied forever and
stop clogging up the groups with the same inane questions that they could
have found the answers to themselves - in less time that it took them to
post. http://groups.google.com should be everyone's first port of call - and
the groups themselves the last.

OK, I'll stand down off my soapbox now, that's just how I feel. Call it
rude, or harsh, or unhelpful or whatever, I don't really care - it's fact,
whether you like it or not.

The above is well said. Also this is a Microsoft group and a lot of
the
questions are about Dell or HP specific issues. What these companies
choose to add or delete should be taken up on a Dell or HP newsgroup.
It was quoted that the OP asked if his PC had USB 2.0 ports. To me
this
was rude. The answer could only be found by reading the manual,
whether
it be from the manuals provided by the seller or somewhere on the web.

 

[Cerridwen]

The above is well said. Also this is a Microsoft group and a lot of
the
questions are about Dell or HP specific issues. What these companies
choose to add or delete should be taken up on a Dell or HP newsgroup.
It was quoted that the OP asked if his PC had USB 2.0 ports. To me
this
was rude. The answer could only be found by reading the manual,
whether
it be from the manuals provided by the seller or somewhere on the web.

Thanks for the support, Frank! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who
feels this way!

 

[DBF]

You see, you still missed the point. Suggesting that someone go read a
manual or find the help at the appropriate site is not the issue. I am all
for that.
I really only had two problems with it:
1) No matter what convention you use or how you abbreviated it, the
"F***ing" is still in there, if only implied.
2) The other problem is that "RTFM" probably only means something to someone
who is newsgroup savvy and therefore probably doesn't need this site in the
first place. The poor guy with the USB 2.0 question saw nothing but "RTFM"
in reply to his post, and thought the reply was blank. I assume he thought
the "RTFM" was someone's initials or was some other type of signature.

I am beginning to think Cerridwen and others of like mind are not going to
agree no matter what others say.
Somehow this doesn't surprise me, since Cerridwen's first post in reference
to my post that started this thread consisted of:

"No, he's just proud he's worked out what RTFM means and he wants to share
it
with the world!"

What I am proud of, Cerridwen, is that I have never told someone to go
"RTFM".
Dave

 

[Bruce Chambers]

Greetings --

You see, you still missed the point. Suggesting that someone go read
a
manual or find the help at the appropriate site is not the issue. I
am all
for that.
I really only had two problems with it:
1) No matter what convention you use or how you abbreviated it, the
"F***ing" is still in there, if only implied.

It's a bit crude, admittedly, but that hardly an earth-shaking
issue.

2) The other problem is that "RTFM" probably only means something to
someone
who is newsgroup savvy and therefore probably doesn't need this site
in the
first place.

You're very much mistaken here. This particular acronym has been
around in common usage far longer than the Internet. I remember first
hearing it in the '60's, and it was old then.


Bruce Chambers
--
Help us help you:



You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. -- RAH

 

[*Vanguard*]

"Cerridwen" said in news:[email protected]:

Amen! This all started because the OP wanted to know whether his
computer had USB2 ports - that was literally all he posted "Does my
computer have USB2 ports?" I mean, how in Hades is anyone supposed to
know?! Therefore, RTFM was perfectly appropriate.

Well, another equally appropriate answer would have been, "Yes and no.
Depends on what hardware you have which you have yet to specify." Vague
queries command vague responses as delineating all possible answers is a
waste of time.

 

[Dick Lewis]

Instead of so many posters thinking that the F in RTFM is
demeaning, since it's be around for years as Bruce Chambers
mentioned, what's wrong with RTFM meaning to
"Read The Full Manual" (sound better)?

Dick

 

[*Vanguard*]

"Pete Baker" said in news:%[email protected]:

Couldn't agree more, JJ

Those still undecided on this issue may find it worthwhile taking a
look at the recent thread where some people who were posting advice
into these public newsgroups were complaining that the advice they
posted did not receive any acknowledgement...

[snip]

Don't know what other thread you refer (no link provided). However, I do
like to see the OP respond. That's not for ego. That's so when someone
else (which could be you) is doing a search on the same problem, they can
see if a reply helped and which one was applicable to the OP's problem. The
OP asks a question, a dozen replies appear, some duplicate each other but
many are different, so which one worked or did none of them help? It's like
looking at a question with multiple different answers and simply being told
that one of them is the correct answer or maybe none of them are correct.

A response from the OP also tells whomever is searching the newsgroups that
the OP actually ever saw the replies. If you repeatedly see posts from
JoeSchmuck in which he never responds to any of the replies to his OP, how
do you know if you want to waste time answering more of his questions if you
don't know if he has ever bothered to visit any of his posts to check for
replies?

I could care less about someone coming back to post "Thanks" or "I'll check
into your suggestions". But a post saying "That worked" or "It didn't work"
helps to determine if the replies were correct or even useful in pointing
the OP in the right direction. A lot of info can be gleaned from reading
newsgroups even if you are not posting queries or responses and it helps to
have closure in knowing if something worked or not. I've learned a lot by
reading threads without ever participating in many of them, but open-ended
threads with no closure often incurs doubt as to what is useful.

One of the reasons why I never will e-mail a reply even if requested by the
OP is that if they had the time to post here then they have the time to
check here, and replies should be shared so anyone can see what worked or
didn't work. Newsgroups (non-private ones, that is) are a public
communications medium, so share or shut up. I'm also not interested in
providing my true e-mail address to a spammer posing as a newbie.

I figure if the OP doesn't issue a reply then they haven't bothered to
return to the newsgroup. After all, if they had the time to return to check
for replies then they obviously had a few seconds available to respond.
However, once a user finds a solution then they often don't return to report
what did or did not work, and the rest of us don't know, either! They come
here for help but forget to share the fruits of that help. Feedback works
to reinforce good results and negate the bad ones. Feedback isn't for ego
stroking. If you don't already have a secure ego and a thick skin then you
shouldn't participate in newsgroups.

As regards to the RTFM discussion, my complaint is that for when this
comment might be applicable is when the user is too lazy or commits the
knee-jerk reaction of posting without even performing any effort beforehand
to try to resolve the problem themself. We aren't mommies relegated to
changing their diapers because they have no control. Nor are we to be
insulted and relegated as automatrons to do the lookup when the OP could
just have easily done the lookup themself. Yet I see tons of replies were
helpers do act as automatrons to provide links to information that the OP
could've easily looked up themself provided they knew where to find it (so
train them by providing hints where to look and on what to search). There
is a huge difference in not looking and not knowing where to look. Someone
who hasn't bothered to first look deserves less respect. Someone who
doesn't know where to look should be given hints or pointers to the
appropriate info source. If the user asks a question that you can verify is
included in a manual then RTFM is appropriate (and if "Read the ****ing
Manual" is objectionable then use "Read the Fine Manual"), and the same if
the information is already provided in the program's own help. However, you
may want to provide a hint as to where to find the information and what to
search on and then let the OP do the rest of the work so they get trained to
use those resources instead of coming back with their next knee-jerk query.

 

[James Silverton]

Greetings --



It's a bit crude, admittedly, but that hardly an earth-shaking
issue.


You're very much mistaken here. This particular acronym has been
around in common usage far longer than the Internet. I remember first
hearing it in the '60's, and it was old then.


Bruce Chambers

RTFM has been around so long that it has lost any real offensiveness
to most people. It's only neophytes who suddenly find out what it
means who are shocked. Probably, most people who have used computers
have justifiably had it said *to* them at some point. If the thin
skinned newbies want a little further shocking, perhaps they should
investigate FUBAR and SNAFU! (Incidentally, SNAFU was recognized by my
spelling checker.)

 

[Frank]

That F stands for ___FRIENDLY____. Get your mind out of the
gutter.

 

[Bruce Chambers]

Greetings --

Too true. Both FUBAR and SNAFU have fine military traditions, as
does RTFM.

Bruce Chambers
--
Help us help you:



You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. -- RAH

 

[Guest]

----- Cerridwen wrote: -----



Amen! This all started because the OP wanted to know whether his computer
had USB2 ports - that was literally all he posted "Does my computer have
USB2 ports?" I mean, how in Hades is anyone supposed to know?! Therefore,
RTFM was perfectly appropriate.

Actually A far better responce to this would have been....
I'm not sure let me look... (much grunting and wiggling about)
Sorry... I can't see any.

;->

 

[Guest]

STFU

 

[Guest]

Haha...maybe he should try this one "GLOTFW

Later

 

[Cerridwen]

Funny isn't it ? I just go to the home page of MS and look at the
newsgroup .. . See a top most active post ... Think it can be
interresting ... And what do I find ? nothing ... some wind in the
trees ... So you achieve to make the most interresting think about MS
a question 'bout rtfm ? yeah, back to my novell forum ... I can even
have response about Windows problems, (re) funny, not ?

One last thing ... make a search about post from joep (no time to the
other ones). So you're there to make advertising for your site ? and
when you can't advertise, you tell the poster that his question is
incomplete / stupid / answer is obvious ... nice people ...

bye

That's what Google's for, ****wit!

 

[DennisB]

That's what Google's for, ****wit!

YOU are the ****wit with most of your rude and stupid answers to questions.
ENOUGH!!!

"Plonk"

 

[Guest]

I agree RTFM is rude!! Unfortunately, there are a lot of "Smart Asses" out there who think they were born knowing it all..
pity on them when reality sets in! In my lifetime, I've meet a lot of people who think they know it all but not one who really does
I'm a support person who works with this stuff everyday and I'll be the first to admit - I don't know it all. I'm not afraid to ask questions, that's how you learn. Everyone has to start somewhere and if they're made to feel stupid because they ask a question - that's a bad thing. Not everone can pick up one of those "big" manuals and get out of it what they need - the average person wouldn't know where to look. If the "know-it-alls' get put out because someone asks a question in a forum too bad!! The sun doesn't rise and set on them! If eveyone was so dam smart, we wouldn't need forums now would we