Restore Question....

G

Guest

I was just reading a thread in this newsgroup about doing a full system
restore and I was hoping to clarify a few things. Here is what I read:
Hello, I was curious if its possible to completely restore your computer or
your hard drive to how it was when you first bought your computer, or so
there is no unessential files on your hard drive.
I have all these random files all over the place on my computer and I would
like to just wipe it clean.
Click to expand...


Yes. Is yours an OEM computer--one made by one of the major
manufacturers like Dell, Gateway, HP, etc?

If so, OEM vendors are required by their agreement with Microsoft to
give you a means of reinstalling, should it be necessary. They can do
this in one of three ways:

1. An OEM copy of Windows
2. A restore CD
3. A hidden partition on your drive, with restore information.

If you don't have 1 or 2, you should have 3, but you should contact
your vendor to find out.

Personally, I find both 2 and 3 unacceptable (especially 3; a hard
drive crash can leave you with nothing), and would never choose to buy
a computer that came with an operating system unless I got a complete
generic installation CD for that operating system.

--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User

Does that mean that the store that sells the computer is responsible for
supplying a way to do a complete restore? My pc is a Dell, but I didn't buy
it from Dell. I need to do a full system restore, but they didn't supply me
with an OEM disk, or a restore disk, and they deleted the hidden partition
when they pre-installed WinXP, now they are saying it will cost me $125 to
buy the OEM disk. Can I call them on this? I realize it is better to buy from
"Dell" a receive a full factory restore disk, but that wasn't in my price
range. If their agreement with Microsoft requires them to provide me with
some way reinstall WinXP then I will definately have something to work with
when I call them again.
 
S

Shenan Stanley

CrankyCheryl said:
I was just reading a thread in this newsgroup about doing a full
system restore and I was hoping to clarify a few things. Here is
what I read:



Yes. Is yours an OEM computer--one made by one of the major
manufacturers like Dell, Gateway, HP, etc?

If so, OEM vendors are required by their agreement with Microsoft to
give you a means of reinstalling, should it be necessary. They can
do
this in one of three ways:

1. An OEM copy of Windows
2. A restore CD
3. A hidden partition on your drive, with restore information.

If you don't have 1 or 2, you should have 3, but you should contact
your vendor to find out.

Personally, I find both 2 and 3 unacceptable (especially 3; a hard
drive crash can leave you with nothing), and would never choose to
buy
a computer that came with an operating system unless I got a
complete generic installation CD for that operating system.

--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User

Does that mean that the store that sells the computer is
responsible for supplying a way to do a complete restore? My pc is
a Dell, but I didn't buy it from Dell. I need to do a full system
restore, but they didn't supply me with an OEM disk, or a restore
disk, and they deleted the hidden partition when they pre-installed
WinXP, now they are saying it will cost me $125 to buy the OEM
disk. Can I call them on this? I realize it is better to buy from
"Dell" a receive a full factory restore disk, but that wasn't in my
price range. If their agreement with Microsoft requires them to
provide me with some way reinstall WinXP then I will definately
have something to work with when I call them again.
Click to expand...

Dell is the OEM - not the store you purchased it from. However - you should
try at the local store first. Was it a NEW Dell or used?

The thing is - if you lose the install method to restore the system to the
'as shipped' state - that is not Dell's fault nor those who sold the system
to you and they will charge you for it. That is if you bought the system
new. If the store in question removed your method of restoration before
selling you the computer (and again - this is a NEW purchase) you *should*
call them on it. They erased your means of restoration and want you to pay
to replace it? That's double-dipping.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

I was just reading a thread in this newsgroup about doing a full system
restore and I was hoping to clarify a few things. Here is what I read:



Yes. Is yours an OEM computer--one made by one of the major
manufacturers like Dell, Gateway, HP, etc?

If so, OEM vendors are required by their agreement with Microsoft to
give you a means of reinstalling, should it be necessary. They can do
this in one of three ways:

1. An OEM copy of Windows
2. A restore CD
3. A hidden partition on your drive, with restore information.

If you don't have 1 or 2, you should have 3, but you should contact
your vendor to find out.

Personally, I find both 2 and 3 unacceptable (especially 3; a hard
drive crash can leave you with nothing), and would never choose to buy
a computer that came with an operating system unless I got a complete
generic installation CD for that operating system.

--
Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User

Does that mean that the store that sells the computer is responsible for
supplying a way to do a complete restore? My pc is a Dell, but I didn't buy
it from Dell. I need to do a full system restore, but they didn't supply me
with an OEM disk, or a restore disk, and they deleted the hidden partition
when they pre-installed WinXP, now they are saying it will cost me $125 to
buy the OEM disk. Can I call them on this? I realize it is better to buy from
"Dell" a receive a full factory restore disk, but that wasn't in my price
range. If their agreement with Microsoft requires them to provide me with
some way reinstall WinXP then I will definately have something to work with
when I call them again.
Click to expand...


Sorry, I don't know exactly what the situation is when there's a third
party involved like this. Unless someone else here knows for sure, if
I were in your shoes, I would begin by calling Dell and asking them
the question.
 
G

Guest

I know this Dell wasn't "new", it is an OptiPlex SX260 and they've been
around for a while....it wasn't advertised as being refurbished, so it may
never have been used before, but it's been sitting around for a few years
waiting for someone to buy it. I bought it from a large Computer Liquidator
Store. I called the store about needing to restore and he said they have an
agreement with Microsoft for pre-installing WinXP on their pc's and providing
a valid, legal product key, but they don't burn off copies. He even admitted
that they may have deleted the hidden partition when they pre-installed
WinXP.
Oh yeah, I forgot the last time to give you my pc info:
Dell OptiPlex SX260
Windows XP Home Ed. version 2002
Service Pack 2
512 MB of RAM
2.66 GHz
 
G

Guest

I bought the computer in July of this year. The lack of a CD has become an
issue because I have Windows updates that have become corrupt and I have no
way of removing them. Add/Remove Programs won't remove them, and I have
looked for and tried the "fixes" I found on the Microsoft/Windows web site
and they haven't worked. About three weeks ago I tried to use the System
Restore feature to restore to my "Brand New" restore point that I created
when I got the computer, but it kept failing. By the time I figured out why
it was failing (I needed to remove the protection on the Symantec Automatic
Update for my Norton Anti-Virus) two whole months of restore points had
disappeared, so I had lost "Brand New". All the restore points that are left
are from AFTER my computer had installed the updates and my problems can't be
fixed.
 
G

Gerry

How do you know your Windows Updates are corrupt?

What Error / Warning reports ( if any ) appear in the System log in
Event Viewer when you last booted the machine?

Please post copies of all Error and Warning Reports appearing in
the System and Application logs in Event Viewer for the last boot. No
Information Reports or Duplicates please. Indicate which also appear in
a previous boot.

You can access Event Viewer by selecting Start, Control Panel,
Administrative Tools, and Event Viewer. When researching the meaning
of the error, information regarding Event ID, Source and Description
are important.

HOW TO: View and Manage Event Logs in Event Viewer in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/308427/en-us

Part of the Description of the error will include a link, which you
should double click for further information. You can copy using copy
and paste. Often the link will, however, say there is no further
information.
http://go.microsoft.com/fw.link/events.asp
(Please note the hyperlink above is for illustration purposes only)

A tip for posting copies of Error Reports! Run Event Viewer and double
click on the error you want to copy. In the window, which appears is a
button resembling two pages. Click the button and close Event
Viewer.Now start your message (email) and do a paste into the body of
the message. Make sure this is the first paste after exiting from
Event Viewer.

Did you buy the computer at a local store or off the internet? Are you
living in the USA?


--



Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
G

Guest

Grrrrr! Computer Rage!! It just took me 15 minutes to type my reply and when
I clicked on "Post Reply" it brought me to "Page Expired" and didn't post my
reply!
Deep Cleansing Breathes!!! That's better.
OK, I'm actually not sure if the updates are corrupt or not, I just know
they can't be removed with Add/Remove Programs. My husband thought he'd
pretend he knew what he was doing and tried to uninstall Microsoft .NET
Framework after he read something about it being for developers, he thought
it might be slowing down my computer. Windows Update downloaded versions 1,2
and 3 with service packs and hotfixes. When he couldn't uninstall them I
tried to use the repair feature to make sure he hadn't screwed up the
programs, but it tells me that the patch package cannot be opened, to verify
that it exists, and to verify that it is a valid Windows Installer Patch
Package.
You kind of lost me with the event viewer, there are dozens of entries in
there, alot of them from the problem I just had with my HP all-in-one
printer, every time I restarted Windows the Windows Installer would pop up
trying to install "Scan" (Scan.msi) and no matter how many times I clicked
cancel it would keep trying. I had to use Ctrl-Alt-Delete to get it to stop,
so I unistalled my printer and reinstalled it.
There is an error repot in here that I'm not sure about, the source is
"Loadperf":

Event Type: Error
Event Source: LoadPerf
Event Category: None
Event ID: 3001
Date: 10/10/2007
Time: 1:20:42 PM
User: N/A
Computer: CRANKYCHERYL
Description:
The performance counter name string value in the registry is incorrectly
formatted. The bogus string is 4922, the bogus index value is the first DWORD
in Data section while the last valid index values are the second and third
DWORD in Data section.

For more information, see Help and Support Center at
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
Data:
0000: 3a 13 00 00 b0 12 00 00 :...°...
0008: b1 12 00 00 97 02 00 00 ±...—...

And below that:

Event Type: Warning
Event Source: LoadPerf
Event Category: None
Event ID: 2006
Date: 10/10/2007
Time: 1:20:42 PM
User: N/A
Computer: CRANKYCHERYL
Description:
LastCounter and LastHelp values of performance registry is corrupted and
needs to be updated. The first and second DWORDs in Data Section are the
original values while the third and forth DWORDs in Data Section are the
updated new values.

For more information, see Help and Support Center at
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
Data:
0000: b0 12 00 00 b1 12 00 00 °...±...
0008: ae 1e 00 00 af 1e 00 00 ®...¯...

I don't know what these are.
Another reason I'd like to start fresh is I recently paid to use one of
those registry cleaners, only to find out that they are very dangerous to use
and nobody should mess with their registry unless they have a very clear
understanding of it. My computer hasn't been running as well as it used to
and I wouldn't know where to begin to find out if that program screwed
something up. (RegCure)
I bought the computer from a local retailer and I'm in Canada. The guy from
the store said they had an agreement with Microsoft for preinstalling WinXP
on their systems, wouldn't they have to provide a means of reinstalling if
necessary?
 
G

Guest

The only thing I received when I bought this mini tower is an express service
code, service tag, and a product key.
Yes, the updates are listed in my Add/Remove Programs.
 
G

Gerry

Did you buy computer at a local store or online? You would be able to
challenge the manager with the list from the link I provided.

"Yes, the updates are listed in my Add/Remove Programs."

Place the cursor on an update in the list and double click. Does a
Remove button appear? What happens if you click the Remove button? Do
you get an error message?


--



Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
G

Guest

I bought the computer from a local large Computer Liquidation store, not
online.
If I click on Microsoft .NET framework 2.0 there is a change/Remove button.
When I click on this it brings up a box to select repair or uninstall. It
doesn't matter which option I choose, I get an error message that says:
Patch package cannot be opened, verify that it exists, verify that you can
access it, verify that it is a valid Windows Installer Patch Package.
I also just noticed that if I try to open the settings for my Norton Fire
Wall to configure it, I keep getting Script Errors, so I've switched to using
my Windows Fire Wall.
If I have enough information saying that they are required to provide a
means of reinstalling WinXP, then I'm going there tomorrow to see what I can
do.
 
G

Gerry

Cheryl

Print off a copy of the link:
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/opsx260/en/ug/findinfo.htm#1163594

They can then see you that you know what they should have provided.
Don't discuss it with anyone other than the Manager.

In Start, Control Panel, Automatic Updates uncheck Automatic and check
"Notify me but don't automatically download or install". When notified
commence the process by selecting Start, Help and Support, Keep your
computer up-to-date with Windows Update and opt for a Custom install.
Other users will get a pop up but are not forced to respond.

Now go online and try Start, Help and Support, Keep your computer
up-to-date with Windows Update and opt for a Custom install. Are you
offered any updates? Do they download and install?


--



Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
G

Guest

Thanks, I printed off the instructions from the first link incase it comes to
that. Unfortunatly I can't use the form on the second link, it only gives
options on the form for the US, and I am in Canada.
 
S

Shenan Stanley

CrankyCheryl said:
I bought the computer from a local large Computer Liquidation
store, not online.
If I click on Microsoft .NET framework 2.0 there is a change/Remove
button. When I click on this it brings up a box to select repair or
uninstall. It doesn't matter which option I choose, I get an error
message that says: Patch package cannot be opened, verify that it
exists, verify that you can access it, verify that it is a valid
Windows Installer Patch Package.
I also just noticed that if I try to open the settings for my
Norton Fire Wall to configure it, I keep getting Script Errors, so
I've switched to using my Windows Fire Wall.
If I have enough information saying that they are required to
provide a means of reinstalling WinXP, then I'm going there
tomorrow to see what I can do.
Click to expand...

The problem is that you purchased a used computer. The fact that it is a
Dell is now irrelevant except for the fact that you can still get limited
support (drivers, etc) from the Dell website. You are bound by the terms of
the agreement you entered with the store you bought it from used - and that
agreement may be *very* loose - even "as is". Review your receipt.

There is no reason to uninstall .NET Framework 2.0. It was not likely
slowing your computer down and your husband was - as you say - pretending to
know what he was doing without researching it very well. Although you *may
not* need it - you might as well. Even your video card (the thing your
monitor hooks up to allow you to see what the computer is doing) might have
drivers/software written using .NET Framework 2.0 code that needs it
installed to function properly.

In order to straighten this up - you are likely going to either have to dive
deep into learning how your computer works and/or trust what you are told
here *OR* take it to someone who can repair it for you. Given that you
claim to have been given no way to restore this system to its as-sold
state - you will likely be charged not only for the work - but any programs
you have to purchase because they will need to be installed anew
afterwards - as many large shops will wipe the data and return it to you
cleanly installed.

First thing you should do at this point - take inventory of what you have
installed and organize any/all installation media for said installed
software. Even if it means buying a few blank CD/DVDs and writing the
installable executables to CD or buying a 1-4GB thumb drive (USB key, etc)
or larger external drive and copying off said items. Then you should backup
your email, your contacts(email addresses), your personal made files
(documents, spreadsheets, tax forms, text, pictures, etc.) CD/DVD/External
USB device - all perfect for this. Once you have backup up your stuff and
organized what you have - take stock of what is actually installed:

http://www.belarc.com/

--> download/install/run Belarc Advisor. Print the results.

Once you have done all the above - you are ready for whatever comes next -
as you have done just about as much as you can to prepare for disaster
recovery (for now.)

Let's ensure your update/automatic updates features are clean and working...

Get Dial-a-Fix:
http://wiki.djlizard.net/Dial-a-fix

Use its options to fix:
- Windows Installer
- Windows Update
- All the Registration Center options.

Turn off the "Empty System32\Catroot 2"
Do NOT do "Flush SoftwareDistribution".

Then click "GO" and wait until it is done... Reboot will be needed.

- Download/Install Windows Update v3.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...fc-5f56-4a38-b838-de776fd4138c&DisplayLang=en
(You *will* need to install it using the command line switch "/wuforce"
right after the reboot - immediately after logging in.)
- Download/Install the 927891 patch.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=7A81B0CD-A0B9-497E-8A89-404327772E5A
- Reboot.
- Visit http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/ and scan for/install updates.
DO NOT GET ANY HARDWARE UPDATES FROM HERE!

If your .NET updates did not get fixed after doing the above... Fix your
..NET Framework issues and install all three versions for now...

(1) You need to repair .NET Framework 1.1 - obliterating all remnants of it
and installing it/patching it fully.

How to troubleshoot Microsoft .NET Framework 1.1 installation issues
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/824643
- Unregister and then reregister Windows Installer (See article)
- Download/install/use:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...33-0343-4EE4-B0C4-97BD16967A09&displaylang=en
- Manually remove and then reinstall the .NET Framework 1.1 (See the 824643
Article)
For the articles below, follow the "IT professionals" link and find the
download for your OS.
- Download/Install http://support.microsoft.com/kb/867460/
- Download/Install http://support.microsoft.com/kb/886903/
- Download/Install http://support.microsoft.com/kb/928366/

Reboot as needed and at the end.

(2) You need to repair .NET Framework 2.0 - obliterating all remnants of it
and installing it/patching it fully.
How to troubleshoot Microsoft .NET Framework 2.0 installation issues
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/908077/
- Unregister and then reregister Windows Installer (See article)
- Manually remove and then reinstall the .NET Framework 2.0 (See Article)
For the articles below, follow the "IT professionals" link and find the
download for your OS.
- Download/Install http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917283/
- Download/Install http://support.microsoft.com/kb/922770/
- Download/Install http://support.microsoft.com/kb/928365/

Reboot as needed and at the end.

(3) You need to repair .NET Framework 3.0 - obliterating all remnants of it
and installing it/patching it fully.

Download/install using this distributable package:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...0B-F857-4A14-83F5-25634C3BF043&displaylang=en

Reboot as needed and at the end.

Now that you should have the system updated (hopefully) - we can discuss the
particulars of whatever problem you may have. Let us know what you are
seeing and someone her will likely be able to walk you through further fixes
to get that machine running as it should be.

By the way - when you take inventory of the system using Belarc Advisor -
come back here and let us know a few things...
- Processor speed (CPU) - x.xGHz? xxxxMHz?
- Amount of memory (RAM) - x.xGB? xxxMB?
- Hard disk drive space (used and free)?

That information - along with any EXACT error messages you see and when you
see them will go a LONG way in getting your machine running up to its
optimal.

You also may want to consider getting rid of all Norton products on the
machine - if anything is using up all your resources - more than is likely
necessary to do the job it does - it is probably Norton. There are many
freeware alternatives (not to mention Windows XP has a built in firewall
anyway) to whatever functions it is supposedly doing for you. AntiVirus,
AntiSpyware, etc. I have an EXTENSIVE list of such items and what things
you can do to improve performance and security on your computer if you
desire to have it. It has been posted and followed MANY times over.
 
G

Gerry

Shenan

" purchased a used computer"????

Is it a used computer? A retailer who sells Dell computers goes bust
holding in stock new Dell computers. Another retailer buys the stock and
sells the computers to the general public. These are still new, not
used, computers. The rights of the purchaser may of course be restricted
if the seller stated at the point of sale that the computer was sold
subject to specified conditions. However, I would expect that if a new
computer is sold without specific conditions then a purchaser has the
right to expect the computer to be complete. It is not complete if the
disks etc normally provided with a Dell computer are not handed over at
the time of sale. In my view the seller would have tell the purchaser
before sale if they were not providing all parts normally provided with
a new computer.
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/opsx260/en/ug/findinfo.htm#1163594

The law relating to sale of goods does of course vary from one country
to another. I have no idea how it is applied in Canada.


--
Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
S

Shenan Stanley

Gerry said:
Shenan

" purchased a used computer"????

Is it a used computer? A retailer who sells Dell computers goes
bust holding in stock new Dell computers. Another retailer buys the
stock and sells the computers to the general public. These are
still new, not used, computers. The rights of the purchaser may of
course be restricted if the seller stated at the point of sale that
the computer was sold subject to specified conditions. However, I
would expect that if a new computer is sold without specific
conditions then a purchaser has the right to expect the computer
to be complete. It is not complete if the disks etc normally
provided with a Dell computer are not handed over at the time of
sale. In my view the seller would have tell the purchaser before
sale if they were not providing all parts normally provided with a
new computer.
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/opsx260/en/ug/findinfo.htm#1163594

The law relating to sale of goods does of course vary from one
country to another. I have no idea how it is applied in Canada.
Click to expand...

I assume it is used by the comments made in the conversation itself...
(It may be a refurbished dell product - but was it refurbished by Dell or a
third party?)


CrankyCheryl wrote:

- "I bought the computer in July of this year."

- "My pc is a Dell, but I didn't buy it from Dell."

- "I know this Dell wasn't "new", it is an OptiPlex SX260 and they've been
around for a while....it wasn't advertised as being refurbished, so it may
never have been used before, but it's been sitting around for a few years
waiting for someone to buy it. I bought it from a large Computer Liquidator
Store. I called the store about needing to restore and he said they have an
agreement with Microsoft for pre-installing WinXP on their pc's and
providing
a valid, legal product key, but they don't burn off copies. He even admitted
that they may have deleted the hidden partition when they pre-installed
WinXP."

- "The only thing I received when I bought this mini tower is an express
service
code, service tag, and a product key."

What that all leads me to is that this is not a *new* Dell. A computer
liquidator having it (although we have not been told what liquidator - that
is a valid question) along with its age (the SX260s were originally released
in late 2002/early 2003) leads one to the conclusion that even if it WAS
once supported by Dell - that time has likely come and gone. Retailers did
not usually sell Dell's in 2002/2003 - other than Dell stores - of which few
existed. The phenom of Dell's being sold in retail stores is fairly new.

And - no one is giving the obvious answer - that the user can discover just
when it was (if it was) actually sold by Dell... If the OP has the Service
Tag (they do - they say they do) then they can see the history of the
machine using that.

http://support.dell.com/support/top.../my_systems_info/en/details?ServiceTag=xxxxxx
(substitute in the actual service tag for the x's at the end)

It will tell anyone when it was first sold by when the warranty started. It
will even show the original configuration and the person on the machine
could click on the 'current configuration' tab and find out more. If it
shows it was sold long ago - chances are it will, then it *is* used. Not
that it matters - as either way - unless it was originally purchased with
the 5 year warranty - it is far from under Dell's warranty any longer.

The fact is - no matter what - the OP has to deal with the Liquidator now to
get anything done for 'free' and the chances of them doing anything for free
are slim to none and more expensive than buying a brand new Dual Core Dell
replacement machine with 19" LCD monitor and Windows XP or Vista installed.
heh The op would be better off trying to fix the computer as I directed
than trying any legal action other than demanding an installation CD and
seeing where that goes. More than likely - this will end up bad because
there are probably other applications on the system the OP does not have
installation media for. ;-)
 
G

Gerry

Shenan

What was said after the sale is not relevant. What is relevant is what
was said before. What is said in the advert before sale would be
relevant.

"he said they have an agreement with Microsoft for pre-installing WinXP
on their pc's and providing a valid, legal product key, but they don't
burn off copies" sounds questionable? Why Microsoft not Dell? It would
be interesting to know whether the copy of Windows XP is a Dell OEM, a
generic OEM or something else. The statement also conflicts with a
requirement that a means of restoring the computer is provided! If it is
not a Dell OEM copy it could complicate warranty claims!

The conversation seem to have occured on the telephone and may well have
been with someone with questionable knowledge and authority. A face to
face meeting with a manager may get a more authorative and satisfactory
response. Lets hope that's what Cheryl gets.

--
Regards.

Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

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