Proposed "Welcome to alt.comp.freeware" message

[=?iso-8859-1?Q?Omar=A9?=]

I agree with James..

FD

Count me in, I agree

Omar
--
"When I am right, No one remembers
When I am wrong, No one forgets"

The Home of Pricelessware 2004
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/

 

[Vic Dura]

Hi Vic,

There have been a number of requests for an informational message for
newbies. The group usually responds to requests for information. IMO we
should try to fulfill this request.

Hello Susan,

I appreciate your efforts to improve the content of this NG. As I
mentioned in another post, my concern is assuring that the "... this
is an unmoderated group and there is no boss..." etc wording always
remains clear, undiluted and unambiguous. I do not doubt that you
yourself will keep that wording, however there is no assurance that
you will always be the person maintaining the message.

Frankly, I don't see the need for it. Even the simplest minds seem to
be able to grasp what this NG is about by reading the posts for a day
or two. That's about 1/3 of the time between the proposed weekly
posts.

Having been around this NG for several years, I am highly suspicious
of anything that would facilitate a power-grab. I believe your
intentions are honest, but nonetheless IMO you are proposing a
mechanism that can be very easily abused by anyone less scrupulous.

I am very much interested in maintaining a forum where minority
opinions can not be shouted down by majority or consensus opinions.
IMO that is what unmoderated NGs are all about.

 

[Susan Bugher]

Hello Susan,

I appreciate your efforts to improve the content of this NG. As I
mentioned in another post, my concern is assuring that the "... this
is an unmoderated group and there is no boss..." etc wording always
remains clear, undiluted and unambiguous. I do not doubt that you
yourself will keep that wording, however there is no assurance that
you will always be the person maintaining the message.

Frankly, I don't see the need for it. Even the simplest minds seem to
be able to grasp what this NG is about by reading the posts for a day
or two. That's about 1/3 of the time between the proposed weekly
posts.

I MUST disagree - *I* didn't.

Having been around this NG for several years, I am highly suspicious
of anything that would facilitate a power-grab. I believe your
intentions are honest, but nonetheless IMO you are proposing a
mechanism that can be very easily abused by anyone less scrupulous.

I am very much interested in maintaining a forum where minority
opinions can not be shouted down by majority or consensus opinions.
IMO that is what unmoderated NGs are all about.

I think I understand your concerns and share them - to some extent.

My position is that the more information we give people (especially
newbies) the easier it is for them to form their own opinions and act
upon them.

ISTM the "welcome" message can be made less susceptible to future
abuse. I'll work on proposed revisions to accomplish that and hope that
we all can achieve a meeting of the minds.

Susan

 

[Roger Johansson]

I think I understand your concerns and share them - to some extent.

That is exactly my position too.

Maybe if the text is more about information about PL web sites and voting procedures, and less about people's behaviour in this
newsgroup and possible repercussions, that would be less controversal.

I would like to see a text about the voluntary cooperation among many of the participators, a short info about voting each year, and
the web sites.
I don't like exact definitions of what is freeware or not, or what is ontopic and offtopic, telling people what they can write about and
not write about.

 

[Ben Cooper]

Hello Susan,

I appreciate your efforts to improve the content of this NG. As I
mentioned in another post, my concern is assuring that the "... this
is an unmoderated group and there is no boss..." etc wording always
remains clear, undiluted and unambiguous. I do not doubt that you
yourself will keep that wording, however there is no assurance that
you will always be the person maintaining the message.

Frankly, I don't see the need for it. Even the simplest minds seem to
be able to grasp what this NG is about by reading the posts for a day
or two. That's about 1/3 of the time between the proposed weekly
posts.

I agree with you, Vic. I don't see much of a need for it, either.

I can understand a set of standards being necessary for the
Pricelessware list, but I don't think there should be any recognized
standards for participating in this group.

The chaotic nature of 'alt' groups are, IMO, part of the fun in
participating. We were all new to this at some point, and we've all
learned how to deal with it.

Then again, as it's already been stated, if someone wants to post such a
message to an 'alt' group there's nothing stopping them.

 

[Mister Charlie]

Hello Susan,

I appreciate your efforts to improve the content of this NG. As I
mentioned in another post, my concern is assuring that the "... this
is an unmoderated group and there is no boss..." etc wording always
remains clear, undiluted and unambiguous. I do not doubt that you
yourself will keep that wording, however there is no assurance that
you will always be the person maintaining the message.

Frankly, I don't see the need for it. Even the simplest minds seem to
be able to grasp what this NG is about by reading the posts for a day
or two. That's about 1/3 of the time between the proposed weekly
posts.

Having been around this NG for several years, I am highly suspicious
of anything that would facilitate a power-grab. I believe your
intentions are honest, but nonetheless IMO you are proposing a
mechanism that can be very easily abused by anyone less scrupulous.

I am very much interested in maintaining a forum where minority
opinions can not be shouted down by majority or consensus opinions.
IMO that is what unmoderated NGs are all about.

How then would that happen? It seems that the anarchy of an unmoderated
group is always going to be there. There IS no mechanism to impose
one's will on the rest, no matter how desirable. It's the curse and the
blessing.

I just don't get the objection, but then there's a LOT I don't get.

 

[Mark Carter]

IMHO this is an attempt to
moderate/control an unmoderated group.

Well, not be me, it isn't. And I'll be the one that automates the post
(once it has been finalised).

I don't think this group will ever be moderated, anyway. There wouldn't
be the volunteers for it.

 

[Vic Dura]

The chaotic nature of 'alt' groups are, IMO, part of the fun in
participating. We were all new to this at some point, and we've all
learned how to deal with it.

This is certainly how I feel.

Then again, as it's already been stated, if someone wants to post such a
message to an 'alt' group there's nothing stopping them.

Nothing stopping them, but we can sure complain.

 

[Vic Dura]

How then would that happen? It seems that the anarchy of an unmoderated
group is always going to be there. There IS no mechanism to impose
one's will on the rest, no matter how desirable. It's the curse and the
blessing.

I just don't get the objection, but then there's a LOT I don't get.

Trying to imply standards in this NG will end up generating a lot of
contention, flaming and chaos. Such contention is far more disruptive
and distracting than an occasional temporarily clueless newbie.

I agree with a previous poster that suggested that the message should
deal more with the PL list and less with any purported "consensus" on
what we can post and do in the NG.

 

[Susan Bugher]

Trying to imply standards in this NG will end up generating a lot of
contention, flaming and chaos. Such contention is far more disruptive
and distracting than an occasional temporarily clueless newbie.

Is this revised message more acceptable?

Susan

*****************

Proposed "Welcome to alt.comp.freeware" message

Welcome, dear reader (lurker) and/or contributor to alt.comp.freeware.

This message is posted on a weekly basis and is intended to be of
service to new visitors.

alt.comp.freeware is one of three groups dedicated to *freeware*. The
other groups are:
alt.comp.freeware.games (for the discussion of freeware games).
alt.comp.freeware.discussion (for general discussions about freeware)

*** This Usenet-group is an unmoderated group. ***

This means that there is no 'boss' around here. There is no charter.
There are no membership requirements. (Anyone who participates in the
newsgroup is a member.)

There is *some* organization. There are discussions about the newsgroup
and newsgroup projects. Newsgroup participants make joint decisions by
consensus or votes in the newsgroup.

The Pricelessware List and the Pricelessware CD are group projects.
There are web sites that publish the Pricelessware List and other
information that pertains to the newsgroup.

Pricelessware and acf information
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org

alt.comp.freeware FAQ
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html.

acfWiki
http://www.markcarter.me.uk/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?AcfWiki

*** Posting in alt.comp.freeware ***

alt.comp.freeware's Ware Glossary can help you learn the language:

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/WareGlossary.php

Posting Tips explains [PL] [AVU] and other filters. It has tips about
posting effectively.

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/Posting.php


*** Searching alt.comp.freeware ***

This is a good way to find freeware information.

http://groups.google.com/advanced_g...=1&group=alt.comp.freeware&safe=off&scoring=d


*** acf Members Sites (web page) ***

Post a request if you want to have your site added to the web pages. The
only requirement is active participation in the newsgroup.

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/Members.php
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/linksacf.htm

Members sites are great places to find freeware and freeware
information. Two examples:

Henk de Jong's 'Links to Freeware' site has thousands of links.

http://www.linkstofreeware.nl/

Son of Spy (aka SoS) lists thousands of Pure Freeware Applications on
his Son Of Spy freeware site.

http://www.sover.net/~wysiwygx/index.html


***********

 

[Roger Johansson]

Proposed "Welcome to alt.comp.freeware" message

My suggestions for changes:

........snipped a lot of unnecessary lines
...........


Welcome to alt.comp.freeware

As a participator in this newsgroup, alt.comp.freeware, you can vote once a year for the best freeware programs.
The results of this voluntary group effort are published in these web sites:

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
http://www.pricelessware.org

These sites are valuable resources when you look for very good freeware programs and other free resources on internet.

*** Searching alt.comp.freeware ***

You can use this link to search in already published messages:

http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?dq=&num=100&hl=en&lr=lang
_en&ie=UTF-8&newwindow=1&group=alt.comp.freeware&safe=off&scoring=d

Some individual participators here have their own sites which are great places to find freeware and freeware
information. Two examples:

Henk de Jong's 'Links to Freeware' site has thousands of links.

http://www.linkstofreeware.nl/

Son of Spy (aka SoS) lists thousands of Pure Freeware Applications on
his Son Of Spy freeware site.

http://www.sover.net/~wysiwygx/index.html

.........

(I cut out information about the wiki because it is still very new and has not evolved enough to be mentioned yet.)

 

[Garrett]

Susan Bugher wrote:

[snip]

I think I understand your concerns and share them - to some extent.

My position is that the more information we give people (especially
newbies) the easier it is for them to form their own opinions and act
upon them.

ISTM the "welcome" message can be made less susceptible to future
abuse. I'll work on proposed revisions to accomplish that and hope
that we all can achieve a meeting of the minds.

Susan

This newsgroup has survived all these years without such a notice, and
newbies always seemed to have found what they needed rather easily by
simply asking here in the newsgroup.

What has changed that a need for this now required?

And since when is anyone allowed to propose such things and implement
such things for this group and in this group?

We can do these things for PL, but we can't do these things like this
in the group itself.

On a group level, nobody can authorize this at all since this is an
umoderated group. But! as I was trying to imply in an earlier post,
you are more than welcome as an individual to post whatever you want.
But if you do, you should not assume in your post that you are
representing this group, only yourself.

-Garrett

 

[Eric]

Susan Bugher wrote:

[snip]

I think I understand your concerns and share them - to some extent.

My position is that the more information we give people (especially
newbies) the easier it is for them to form their own opinions and act
upon them.

ISTM the "welcome" message can be made less susceptible to future
abuse. I'll work on proposed revisions to accomplish that and hope
that we all can achieve a meeting of the minds.

Susan

This newsgroup has survived all these years without such a notice, and
newbies always seemed to have found what they needed rather easily by
simply asking here in the newsgroup.

What has changed that a need for this now required?

And since when is anyone allowed to propose such things and implement
such things for this group and in this group?

We can do these things for PL, but we can't do these things like this
in the group itself.

On a group level, nobody can authorize this at all since this is an
umoderated group. But! as I was trying to imply in an earlier post,
you are more than welcome as an individual to post whatever you want.
But if you do, you should not assume in your post that you are
representing this group, only yourself.

-Garrett

Well said, Garrett. I agree.


Eric

 

[Vic Dura]

*** This Usenet-group is an unmoderated group. ***

This means that there is no 'boss' around here. There is no charter.
There are no membership requirements. (Anyone who participates in the
newsgroup is a member.)

This is very acceptable provided it is not removed or changed by
whoever follows you in maintaining the welcome message. How can you
assure that? I don't believe there is anyway you can do that.

If you feel you *must* post something, I would have to say I like
Roger Johansson's suggestion better. However I still don't see the
need for it at all and still don't trust it.

There have been too many attempts here to censor posts under the guise
of "majority" or "consensus" preference for me to feel comfortable
with it unless it is limited to PL information only.

 

[ubab ilagnab]

Well, not be me, it isn't. And I'll be the one that automates the post
(once it has been finalised).

I don't think this group will ever be moderated, anyway. There wouldn't
be the volunteers for it.

I certainly hope not. The unfortunate events of sometime ago though has
made me afraid.
YOur automated links are very useful. Thanks for making life a bit easier.

 

[Susan Bugher]

Proposed "Welcome to alt.comp.freeware" message

Several times in the past a weekly post has been suggested - a guide to
newbies in ACF.

This particular discussion began in the thread titled "Acf Wiki - ideas
please" and continued in a thread titled "[VP] alt.comp.freeware
information Mon Aug 23 23:30:02 2004".

In those threads Mark Carter offered to automate the posts to ACF and
Henk de Jong posted a draft of a "welcome" message.

The goals of this thread:

1. Determine if there is a consensus that such a message should be posted.

2. Review and comment on the draft and revise it as needed.

In another thread Henk has asked that this proposal be withdrawn due to
a lack of consensus on whether such a message should be posted.

Susan

 

[BillR]

My suggestions for changes:

.......snipped a lot of unnecessary lines
..........


Welcome to alt.comp.freeware

As a participator in this newsgroup, alt.comp.freeware, you can vote once a year for the best freeware programs.
The results of this voluntary group effort are published in these web sites:

<Snip>
Miscellaneous Ramblings

While we may never reach complete agreement on the introductory
material, I find Roger's version abrupt. Mentioning three groups and
lack of moderation are important aspects of participating in ACF. For
the latter I'd prefer a simple note that this is an unmoderated group
accompanied by a plea for forbearance and civility. The selection of
Pricelessware and the CD are the result of cooperation and volunteer
effort.

So far ACF has primarily discussed MS Windows software. That is also
valuable information to include even if we hope to expand our
discussion of *nix wares are are willing to try to recommend
appropriate *nix wares.

I've always appreciated the anti-FAQ. While offensive to some, it
represents a valid and widely held viewpoint. Any FAQ listing should
include it if only to save us from someone like me who will
intermittently cite it in a followup post. Perhaps all three(!) might
be offered as unofficial FAQs.

I would move the Google Groups comment near the top and encourage its
use.

Anything that makes this a friendlier ng that encourages participation
rather than stifling it would be welcome. Henk, Susan, Mark, et al., I
think the basic idea is a good one. Just call it

.. An Unofficial Invitation to Participate in Alt.Comp.Freeware.*

or whatever.

BillR

 

[Vic Dura]

Mentioning three groups and
lack of moderation are important aspects of participating in ACF. For
the latter I'd prefer a simple note that this is an unmoderated group
accompanied by a plea for forbearance and civility. The selection of
Pricelessware and the CD are the result of cooperation and volunteer
effort.

Good points.

 

[Chrissy Cruiser]

Proposed "Welcome to alt.comp.freeware" message

<Quote>
"Welcome, dear reader (lurker) and/or contributor to alt.comp.freeware.
Don't become a troll acording to Corliss definitions.

Good so far.

In this Usenet-group we discuss *freeware*. We all
highly appreciate when everybody discuss *freeware* only.
However, there is no consensus of opinion on what "freeware" is so have at it!!

Ok, I like that too. Honesty.

When you like to contribute to this group, we recommend that you read
the 'acf Posting Tips' first. Those tips can be found at
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/Posting.php.
Ignore them if they seem to be an attempt to moderate an ummoderated ng.

Fair enough.

This Usenet-group is an unmoderated group. This means that there is no
'boss' around here. But it also means that everybody is entitled to send
an abuse to the ISP of a poster when he/she 'trolls' or 'spams' this group.

Translation: Deluded pseudo-"owners" of this slice of Usenet get real
pissed off when you "invade their territory".

This message is posted on a weekly basis and is intented to be at the
service of new visitors to this group."

That should be "intended" not "intented" and if yo weren't so damn hung up
on Uset control of ACF, you would hace thought to use your freeware
spellchecker.

</Quote>

Right, quoteth Chrissy Cruiser.

**************

Mark Carter posted this comment after sevaral drafts (of green beer):

FYI for those who are not familiar with it - the the Green Eggs Report
is here:

I hate Green Eggs with Bugher spam

"I really dislike green eggs and spam,
I do , I dislike them Sam-I-Am,
And I would be so very grateful
If I never had another plateful."

"Sorry, more for today,"
Said Sam, as he put down his tray.
"You've eaten up my whole supply.
But more spam and eggs will fly."

===========================================

Auughhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 

[dszady]

Proposed "Welcome to alt.comp.freeware" message [...]
This Usenet-group is an unmoderated group. This means that there is no
'boss' around here. But it also means that everybody is entitled to send
an abuse to the ISP of a poster when he/she 'trolls' or 'spams' this
group.

Translation: Deluded pseudo-"owners" of this slice of Usenet get real
pissed off when you "invade their territory".

This message is posted on a weekly basis and is intented to be at the
service of new visitors to this group."

That should be "intended" not "intented" and if yo weren't so damn hung up
on Uset control of ACF, you would hace thought to use your freeware
spellchecker.

</Quote>

Right, quoteth Chrissy Cruiser.

[...] 22 worthless lines of shit snipped.
Well... K-K-K-Krissy your troll-like behaviour looks to be cumming on you.
Whoops! Forgot to use my spell check.