frag said:
Vanguard (NPI) scribbled:
Try this for a comparison.
I buy a new car. From garage 'x'. It is secured against theft by keys.
I loose my keys. Happens to people all the time doesn't it?
Does the car manufacturer tell me I have to go back to the exact garage
I got the car from? No.
If the car cost me $10,000, does the manufacturer try to charge me
$40,000 to replace the keys? No.
If I goto the manufacturer direct will they tell me to go take a hike?
No.
If I go to another dealer will they tell me to go take a hike? No.
All of those questions are "yes" in Microsofts OEM s/w case.
And you think you are going to get those replacement keys for free? And
without proof that you are the *owner* of that vehicle? Oh, yeah, and those
replacement keys are going to cost 4 times the price of the car, uh huh,
right. Also, you (or your bank) owns the car, which isn't the same as
granting a license to use it. You think the dealer, manufacturer, or anyone
else should be giving you replacement keys for a vehicle that you do NOT
own? Sure would make stealing, er, "using" those rental cars a lot easier.
According to you, I should be able to get replacement keys for a car that I
do not own. So where are you parking your car these days?
Every
person has the right to protect their ass[ets], even you, and even
Microsoft.
I am a software developer, and there's no way would I dare have such an
arrogant attitude such as MS.
If you were a software *owner* then you would want to protect your assets.
Obviously you work on tiny projects by comparison. Work on some large
projects where each license for a product costs $8,000 or the initial
license starts at $50K and each seat costs thousands more thereafter.
Microsoft's activation mechanism is simple, quick, and trivial compared what
you have to go through with large products. Compared to enterprise-grade
software, Microsoft's "attitude" is hardly arrogant in comparison. I'm sure
the same argument has been used regarding the hard shell plastic wrap that
makes it tough for customers to rip open retail packages but provides some
protection to the seller that the user doesn't rip them off. You get
nuisanced, they get some protection. They're not giving up their protection
because you whine about the nuisance.
I've got absolutely no problem paying a *reasonable* fee for a new key.
But £475 to replace the key for a product that cost £75?
Don't know where you are getting those prices. Cost us $19 to get a
replacement CD with product ID sticker. We didn't get charged for the phone
call. Of course, we weren't trying to get Microsoft to cover our butt for
our mistake by performing the duties for which the OEM supplier is
responsible. We were dealing with Microsoft for a product sold by Microsoft
as an end-user product. It sounds like Microsoft will give you a new
product key which effectively gives you a NEW license to a *non-OEM* version
of the product since that is what they support to end users.
Any people who's OEMs have gone out of business and loose their key
will be in the same position as me.
Yep, because they bought from the OEM instead of from Microsoft. When you
buy that water heater, you never get to complain to whomever made the pilot
light assembly when it breaks. That pilot light manufacturer owes you
nothing since you weren't the one that bought that part from them. If the
OEM that built the water heater goes out of business, there goes your
warranty and there goes any contracted service agreement you had with them.
I'd imagine that'd include quite a few laptop owners, as all the
stickers on the bottom of laptops fade, get the writing rubbed off or
just peel off.
Have you yet actually called Microsoft to find out if they will give you a
product key (for YOUR version of Windows)? When you call, they reserve the
right to charge you because they really have no proof that your call isn't a
full-blown tech support call. They want the right to charge in case, for
example, it's another boob that cannot manage to RTFM so they have to waste
their time reading it to the user. Same goes for hotfixes. You call them,
they say they will charge you, you prove that their hotfix will actually
address your problem, they put the hotfix file on their FTP server, and you
don't get charged.
The fact they(and I) should have taken a note of the key, and didn't,
doesn't alter the fact the support call cost is extortionate. how many
people should take data backups?
There should be a system in place for when the OEM cannot help the end
user. A system that doesn't try to completely and utterly rip the end
user off with a £399 + VAT charge.
Don't know where you called. When I called, the charge would be $35 (*if*
they charged me). That was a chargeable or billable call, but that doesn't
mean that I will get billed for it. $35 USD is £19.88, so maybe you do need
a hearing check. If you haven't used up the included support, you can use
up one of the 2 support incidents that are included with Windows XP. Oops,
I forgot, you never paid Microsoft for support, so you will get charged for
support - but at $35, not the $702 that you mentioned. Oops, you never did
buy the product from Microsoft so I bet their "support" will result in
selling you a *new* license for one of THEIR products.
It sounds like Microsoft did have a system in place. They would charge you
the $35 for the support call because, well, you never did pay them for
support because you got an OEM version from someone else. They don't sell
other vendor's products. They sell their own. So they would've sold you a
product key for THEIR upgrade or full version product - but it certainly
sounds like you got the pricing all wrong or you were asking them about the
wrong product.
You can make as many daft comparisons as you like, they're not valid.
Yeah, and like your car comparison was better, uh huh, under the premise
that it is your car - but it never was your car and yet you think you're
going to get replacement keys for it.
"product keys" have been used for years. I don't know of any other
company who will charge you 4 times the purchase price to issue a new
one, even if the software is pre-installed.
£399 is $703 USD. There is no single-license version of Windows XP that
sells for that much. I don't know about your country, but Windows XP Pro
only costs $142 USD (£81) for the OEM version, $188 USD (£107) for the
upgrade version, and $230 USD (£131) for the full retail version (prices
from newegg.com). Sounds like there was a miscommunication and Microsoft
was going to sell you a volume license instead of a new single license.
Since Microsoft wasn't in the original sales contract, and since they
probably can only give you product keys for THEIR products and not for some
OEM'ers version, they probably can't cut you any better a deal on price than
a reseller can. If Sony actually agreed to sell you a Samsung television,
they probably would sell it to you at whatever was the market price for the
Samsung television.
Any other company I imagine would be only to happy to *KEEP A CUSTOMER
HAPPY* by issuing another key upon viewing proof of purchase.
Correction: you were NEVER *their* customer. You were the OEM'ers customer.
You only find out a company has poor customer service backup when you
need it and it fails you. Both the OEM and MS have done that here.
The sales contract never involved Microsoft. It didn't involve IBM, either,
or Intel, or Creative Labs, or anyone else that you might like to include.
Your beef is with the OEM'er.
Taking back a telephone to the store where you bought it (and not back to
whomever made the parts used within it because they obviously don't know
you) and telling them that YOU lost the handset probably would also result
in them not refunding your product (by giving you money or another
telephone). If you were a retailer, would you go replacing everything that
your customers lost? Well, yeah, if you sold them a service contract that
included insurance which included loss under any circumstance. At one time,
a long time ago, retailers might be so forgiving but today the profit
margins are way too tight to do that now. They cannot afford to placate all
their users that lose the product or parts of it because their margin is too
tight for them to be altruistic. Losing one customer, or a few, that want a
gimme is far less costly then paying for the loss of all those gimmes.
I'll keep nagging the OEM, but, really. One tries to stay legal, makes
a small mistake and gets slapped in the face and is expected to chuck
£75 down the drain.
You had a loss which was your fault. We all lose things. It wouldn't be
loss if someone always came to our rescue to save us from ourselves.
Sometimes someone does come to the rescue, or helps reduce our loss. That's
nice but there is no requirement socially or legally that anyone be
altruistic to you. Because your OEM'er is a bastard, you were hoping
Microsoft would cover their butt and yours, but Microsoft was never paid for
the support and there was never a sales contract between you and Microsoft.
You're a programmer. Okay, so you code a portion of whatever product your
company sells. When was the last time your forked out your own money to buy
a whole new product or reduce the cost of it for a customer of your company
that somehow lost the use of your company's software? You provided one
component to your company's product. Your contract and responsibility was
between you and your company. You don't owe the customer anything because
that customer never paid you for your company's product. You provided a
component of the complete product. If you were both the programmer and the
software owner, and you sold reduced cost license for distribution to ABC
System Fabricators, your contract is between you and them, not to whomever
they sell their systems.
Put yourself in Microsoft's position when selling tons of reduced cost
version of their products to OEM'ers. Recount to us when was the last time
you were so altruistic that you rummaged through your own pockets to pay
party B for their loss simply because your product sold to party A which was
incorporated into their product got bought by party B, especially for a sale
for which you got NO MONIES from party B. You bought the software from the
OEM, not from Microsoft, so you disconnected yourself from Microsoft. Now
you want to get reconnected for free or for very cheap. They said no. They
aren't legally or socially obligated otherwise. In business, friendliness
and forgiveness have costs.
I find it hard to believe that you, as a programmer, don't know how OEM
software support works.
so they can verify this is a genuine legit MCE before