Norton AV 2003 or 2004?

F

Frederic Bonroy

Robert said:
BTW since nearly every PC maker in the country supplies NAV in a
trial version or limited subscription time limit .. [...]

[...] Oh, btw, which country were you
talking about when you talk about "the country". Yours or Frederic's?

I don't buy computers in regular stores so I am not so terribly well
informed but NAV certainly is included in most offers. Actually I have
seen it a few times. Preinstalled XP and NAV are the classic
combination. When I bought a separate motherboard there was also a CD
with NAV; needless to say it never saw the light of the day. ;-)

"The country" in my case is a number of countries: Germany, France and
the Netherlands. It probably applies to the rest of Europe as well.
 
C

Conor

Hi Frederic..I hope you had a great Holiday Season,
Now...show me the real unbiased performance test data that supports your
claims about bloatware.

Press CTRL-ALT-DEL on Win2k/XP to bring up Taskmanager. CLick on
Processes. Add up the sum total of everything related to Norton.

What is it and how many processes are running?

NOD32 has 2 processes using a total of 15000K.
 
C

Conor

Easy, install NAV and a couple of other AV programs and compare their
size on disk. That's the first step.

Then ask yourself why on Earth NAV requires Internet Explorer. That
would be the second step.
And how uch system resources does it use whilst running?
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

Charlie wrote:

Yes, if it's needless. Multiply the trend over 100 such applications,
some of which will inevitably be bigger as they do bigger tasks than
hunt malware (supposedly as a low-impact background task) and see
where the trend takes you.

Bear in mind that not everyone follows the "duuuuhh" practice of
dumping everything in one big C:, then wondering why Windows slows
down when the heads have to traverse your 50G music and movie
collection. In the context of an 8G "engine room" C: that is supposed
to stay lean and mean, a bloated program footprint is Bad.
Not everybody has the money/time/will to invest into new hardware

And those that do, may want to do *more* as a result, not simply do
the same stuff at the same speed.
It is entirely possible to write sleek and efficient software.

Sometimes it's slower (to attain the same degree of stability) to
write and thus more likely to reach the market late and overpriced.
The "bloat" factor may go about higher-level languages that allow
faster development with better stability than, say, raw C.

Again; those who buy speed and capacity do so with the expectation of
putting this to use, attaining better results than merely running the
same sort of tasks more slowly. Anyone paying extra $$$ for an extra
few MHz (e.g. 2.8GHz rather than 2.6GHz) isn't going to like
underfootware that uses up an extra 7% processor time.

As to the latest NAV; not only is it weak on detecting commercial
malware (as msot if not all av will be), it actually *imposes* the
same sort of negative impact as commercial malware (DRM).


-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Hmmm... what was the *other* idea?
 
R

Robert Moir

cquirke said:
As to the latest NAV; not only is it weak on detecting commercial
malware (as msot if not all av will be), it actually *imposes* the
same sort of negative impact as commercial malware (DRM).

As an aside on symantec, I had to phone them recently to activate a product
that was installed on a machine that was permanently connected to a LAN (and
which ran several processes which meant disconnecting it was a bad idea)
which has a permanent connection to the internet.

The Symantec helpdesk asked me to disconnect the computer from the Internet.
They seemed most surprised when I said that I couldn't.

They never did fix their lousy no-good software for me either. I had to find
my own work around. Every time I am forced to buy something from them I get
another reminder of why I don't buy from them when there is a choice.

--
 
K

kurt wismer

Charlie said:
You have no understanding of the already bogus term "bloatware" or you are
a newbie to computing.
Back in the "old days" of Intel 386 - 16 mhz processors 8M ram total and 20M
(not G) hard drives then yes, file size on the storage device was a factor.
Today with 80G hard drives the smallest you find typically even in the least
expensive desktop machines

talking out of your arse again, i see... why just yesterday i was
trying to help my uncle find an inexpensive desktop system... the
smallest i saw was 20G, not 80...
what is the BIG deal about 65M vs 8M even if we
believe your numbers ..eh?? 65M on an 80G drive occupies 0.0008125 % of
the total drive capapcity. Is that some kind of terrible thing??? Get
up-to-speed with modern day standards and then "do the math" before you call
something bloatware.

perhaps you should do some math aswell... you realize that all that
data and code doesn't just sit idly on your hard disk, right?

it either gets read onto memory and stored there for some not
insignificant period of time, or it gets read in peicemeal over and
over again whenever necessary... if the former then you should really
be looking at the ammount of physical ram available, not the hard disk
size... in either event you also have to take into account the time it
takes to read from the disk - the more there is to read the more time
it takes... the more of it is put into memory, the more memory gets
paged out to the disk, contributing to still more disk reads/writes...

do you know what the slowest operation on a pc is? disk reads/writes...
it's slower than anything else by orders of magnitude...
Moreover even back then the typical use of this term had to do with the
"resource stacks" in Windows operating systems and not hard drive size.
Even today some call certain apps "resource hogs" unknowingly and
unwittingly. Since the NT operating system came into being and then WinXP
built on that technology those "resources stacks" are no longer present in
those OS's so that meaning of "bloatware" is also wrong, outdated,
misleading and believed only by those who heard some other misinformed soul
preach to them about it.

are you on crack? the term resource applies to a lot more than just
some abstract term from the old days - ram is a resource, processing
cycles are a resource, bloatware still eats these things...
Typically these days the much bally-hooed term bloatware usually refers to
cpu cycles usage and/or ram usage and that too is fading as any real
consideration since cpu speed and ram capacity far exceeds the needs for 99%
of users apps.

which might be true if users were only running one app at a time...
however they do not... in point of fact, i was examining a system a
couple days ago on which the memory usage exceeded the total physical
memory of the system *on boot up*...
 
K

kurt wismer

Charlie said:
You have no understanding of the already bogus term "bloatware" or you are
a newbie to computing.
Back in the "old days" of Intel 386 - 16 mhz processors 8M ram total and 20M
(not G) hard drives then yes, file size on the storage device was a factor.
Today with 80G hard drives the smallest you find typically even in the least
expensive desktop machines

talking out of your arse again, i see... why just yesterday i was
trying to help my uncle find an inexpensive desktop system... the
smallest i saw was 20G, not 80...
what is the BIG deal about 65M vs 8M even if we
believe your numbers ..eh?? 65M on an 80G drive occupies 0.0008125 % of
the total drive capapcity. Is that some kind of terrible thing??? Get
up-to-speed with modern day standards and then "do the math" before you call
something bloatware.

perhaps you should do some math aswell... you realize that all that
data and code doesn't just sit idly on your hard disk, right?

it either gets read onto memory and stored there for some not
insignificant period of time, or it gets read in peicemeal over and
over again whenever necessary... if the former then you should really
be looking at the ammount of physical ram available, not the hard disk
size... in either event you also have to take into account the time it
takes to read from the disk - the more there is to read the more time
it takes... the more of it is put into memory, the more memory gets
paged out to the disk, contributing to still more disk reads/writes...

do you know what the slowest operation on a pc is? disk reads/writes...
it's slower than anything else by orders of magnitude...
Moreover even back then the typical use of this term had to do with the
"resource stacks" in Windows operating systems and not hard drive size.
Even today some call certain apps "resource hogs" unknowingly and
unwittingly. Since the NT operating system came into being and then WinXP
built on that technology those "resources stacks" are no longer present in
those OS's so that meaning of "bloatware" is also wrong, outdated,
misleading and believed only by those who heard some other misinformed soul
preach to them about it.

are you on crack? the term resource applies to a lot more than just
some abstract term from the old days - ram is a resource, processing
cycles are a resource, bloatware still eats these things...
Typically these days the much bally-hooed term bloatware usually refers to
cpu cycles usage and/or ram usage and that too is fading as any real
consideration since cpu speed and ram capacity far exceeds the needs for 99%
of users apps.

which might be true if users were only running one app at a time...
however they do not... in point of fact, i was examining a system a
couple days ago on which the memory usage exceeded the total physical
memory of the system *on boot up*...
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

talking out of your arse again, i see... why just yesterday i was
trying to help my uncle find an inexpensive desktop system... the
smallest i saw was 20G, not 80...

A 120G HD colds 5 times the capacity at around double the component
price (and something like 7% of the system price). So yes; you do get
lamer-bait systems that still peddle that kind of shite, but what does
that tell you about the vendor's care about your interests?

If you buy stupid, you can't expect to enjoy teh same satisfactory
mileage as those of us who don't buy stupid. Top of the list of
"stupid" would be Pentium 4 on micro-ATX with no AGP slot and puny
hard drive - wasting money puffing up Intel's margins, etc.

I'm with you against bloatware, tho - if you do pay the trivial extra
to get 5 times the HD capacity, it's with the expectation of being
able to store 5 times as much as a result :)
do you know what the slowest operation on a pc is? disk reads/writes...
it's slower than anything else by orders of magnitude...

Except perhaps the modem - which is why pulling down 7M engine updates
for bloatware bites the other cheek of yer ass.
are you on crack? the term resource applies to a lot more than just
some abstract term from the old days - ram is a resource, processing
cycles are a resource, bloatware still eats these things...

Yep. If you use "resource" as sloppy-speak for "resource heaps",
that's your problem :)


------------ ----- --- -- - - - -
Drugs are usually safe. Inject? (Y/n)
 
B

BoB

A 120G HD colds 5 times the capacity at around double the component
price (and something like 7% of the system price). So yes; you do get
lamer-bait systems that still peddle that kind of shite, but what does
that tell you about the vendor's care about your interests?

If you buy stupid, you can't expect to enjoy teh same satisfactory
mileage as those of us who don't buy stupid. Top of the list of
"stupid" would be Pentium 4 on micro-ATX with no AGP slot and puny
hard drive - wasting money puffing up Intel's margins, etc.

I'm with you against bloatware, tho - if you do pay the trivial extra
to get 5 times the HD capacity, it's with the expectation of being
able to store 5 times as much as a result :)

Except perhaps the modem - which is why pulling down 7M engine updates
for bloatware bites the other cheek of yer ass.

I have a modem bottleneck. Bloatware will always be on my shite list.
Reading a few NGs, and keeping AVs, spyware prevention/cleaners, and
hosts/restricted lists up-to-date, doesn't leave time to tolerate any
type of bloatware.

Last Christmas I replaced my 5 year old computer with a 1.7ghz, 40 gig
HD, IE60 and a 56K modem. Today, over 38 of the 40 gig remains unused.
The one thing I didn't need was a larger HD. What I still need is a fast
internet connection. By the time a fast connection is available it will
be time for another new computer.
Yep. If you use "resource" as sloppy-speak for "resource heaps",
that's your problem :)

Reading exchanges between knowledgeable users is always rewarding.
Keep up the banter. :)

BoB
 
F

FromTheRafters

BoB said:
I have a modem bottleneck. Bloatware will always be on my shite list.
Reading a few NGs, and keeping AVs, spyware prevention/cleaners, and
hosts/restricted lists up-to-date, doesn't leave time to tolerate any
type of bloatware.

This is not directed at BoB or anyone in particular for that matter.

The way I see it, all one really needs is a "tight ship" and a reliable
on demand scanner. If one can't be bothered to run a "tight ship"
then bloatware AV is the answer. Most of the "feature rich" AVs
are supplying the lazy with crutches to become dependent upon.

....they *asked* for the bloatware.

....they bought into the "you need frontier scanning and nested
archive scanning and active scanning and auto-updating virus
definitions" mentality.

....they shouldn't complain about the resulting performance hit or
storage footprint.

I realize that running a "tight ship" is next to impossible for some
businesses, and the sysadmin must compare this bloatware to
that bloatware and decide which to use, and that some AVs seem
to do the same service with less bloat than others...but for the
average user, bloat can be reduced by not requiring the program
to do their thinking for them as well as their AV scanning.
 
F

Frederic Bonroy

FromTheRafters said:
...they bought into the "you need frontier scanning and nested
archive scanning and active scanning and auto-updating virus
definitions" mentality.

Because they are ignorant and this is not meant to be condescending.
They know too little about this stuff to make informed decisions. You
can blame that partly on AV companies and especially their marketing
departments I suppose.

And unfortunately, often otherwise useful programs are bloatware. Though
in the case of AV software, there is a particularly huge bloat-to-useful
code ratio. :-(
 
O

optikl

Frederic Bonroy wrote:
..
And unfortunately, often otherwise useful programs are bloatware. Though
in the case of AV software, there is a particularly huge bloat-to-useful
code ratio. :-(
That's probably because a computer "virus" is still perceived by a
significant portion of the public to be able to infect users in the same
way a biological virus infects; you pick one up just surfing the net.
Software developers are just responding to the public's desire to have
their systems "inoculated", hence the code bloat to give us things like
script scanning, email scanning, spyware detection, spam detection and a
firewall integrated into the package, for good measure. When enough of
the public realizes that you don't get infected by computer viruses and
worms in the same manner you can get infected by SARS, then the demand
for needless software features will probably wane. But, that probably
isn't going to happen as long as new, malicious code continues feed that
perception.
 
C

* * Chas

I'm going to be 60 soon and I've been messing with computers
for over 50 years now. When I was a pre-adolescent in the
early 50's my brother ran a computer department at a major
university. I used to help him after school, on weekends and
school holidays. He showed me how to wire up "bread board"
logic circuits with jumper wires and how to process punch
cards.

The IBM system filled a 30' x 30' room; a second room had
all of the punch card hardware. All of the equipment had a
black crackle paint finish just like old typewriters and
adding machines.
The computer had less processing power than today's free
give-away hand calculators.


Here's a little quote from a 1982 magazine article entitled
"Real Programmers":

"Back in the good old days -- the "Golden Era" of
computers, it was easy
to separate the men from the boys (sometimes called "Real
Men" and "Quiche
Eaters" in the literature). During this period, the Real Men
were the ones that
understood computer programming, and the Quiche Eaters were
the ones that
didn't. A real computer programmer said things like "DO 10
I=1,10" and "ABEND" (they actually talked in capital
letters, you understand), and the rest of the world said
things like "computers are too complicated for me" and "I
can't
relate to computers -- they're so impersonal". (A previous
work points out
that Real Men don't "relate" to anything, and aren't afraid
of being impersonal.)

But, as usual, times change. We are faced today with
a world in which
little old ladies can get computers in their microwave
ovens, 12-year-old kids
can blow Real Men out of the water playing Asteroids and
Pac-Man, and anyone
can buy and even understand their very own Personal
Computer. The Real
Programmer is in danger of becoming extinct, of being
replaced by high-school
students with TRASH-80's.

There is a clear need to point out the differences
between the typical
high-school junior Pac-Man player and a Real Programmer. If
this difference is
made clear, it will give these kids something to aspire
to -- a role model, a
Father Figure. It will also help explain to the employers of
Real Programmers
why it would be a mistake to replace the Real Programmers on
their staff with
12-year-old Pac-Man players (at a considerable salary
savings)."

And.... concerning Bloatware:

" Allegedly, one Real Programmer managed to tuck a
pattern-matching
program into a few hundred bytes of unused memory in a
Voyager spacecraft that searched for, located, and
photographed a new moon of Jupiter."

Chas.

- Real programmers don't write application programs, they
pro-
gram right down on the bare metal. Application programming
is for feebs who can't do systems programming.
 
F

FromTheRafters

* * Chas said:
I'm going to be 60 soon and I've been messing with computers
for over 50 years now. When I was a pre-adolescent in the
early 50's my brother ran a computer department at a major
university. I used to help him after school, on weekends and
school holidays. He showed me how to wire up "bread board"
logic circuits with jumper wires and how to process punch
cards.

The IBM system filled a 30' x 30' room; a second room had
all of the punch card hardware. All of the equipment had a
black crackle paint finish just like old typewriters and
adding machines.
The computer had less processing power than today's free
give-away hand calculators.

....but they had better cooling systems.

You probably remember dot matrix messages recorded on
paper tape, and those banner programs featuring playboy
centerfolds.....those were the good ol' days (before they
became so "user friendly")
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

I have a modem bottleneck. Bloatware will always be on my shite list.
Last Christmas I replaced my 5 year old computer with a 1.7ghz, 40 gig
HD, IE60 and a 56K modem. Today, over 38 of the 40 gig remains unused.
The one thing I didn't need was a larger HD. What I still need is a fast
internet connection. By the time a fast connection is available it will
be time for another new computer.

When I'm waiting, I'm waiting for the HD - so if my working set is
(say) 5G on an 8G C:, I love that to be on the first 20-odd cylinders
on a huge drive; there's almost no head travel involved at all!

Modems are so slow that they fall outside what I consider the usable
computing experience. It's as hard to take the 'net seriously today
(especially all the "streaming media" nonsense) as it was to take home
computers seriously in an age of loading programs from cassette.

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a suitcase full of CDRs, though!


------------ ----- --- -- - - - -
Drugs are usually safe. Inject? (Y/n)
 
N

null

When I'm waiting, I'm waiting for the HD - so if my working set is
(say) 5G on an 8G C:, I love that to be on the first 20-odd cylinders
on a huge drive; there's almost no head travel involved at all!

Modems are so slow that they fall outside what I consider the usable
computing experience. It's as hard to take the 'net seriously today
(especially all the "streaming media" nonsense) as it was to take home
computers seriously in an age of loading programs from cassette.

My current toy is a "previously owned" 900 mhz PIII Hp Pavilion with
Win ME, and I have DSL service. I use about 2 gig of a 43 gig hard
drive which I keep defragged. The thing really screeches. After many
years on the internet I finally have something that's a real pleasure
to use. One of the benefits of DSL is that I can set zero h.d. cache
on my browsers and get rid of the "havng to refresh page" annoyances.
Hard drive cache is now a kludge of the past just like disk
compression was back in the DOS 6 days.

DSL service isn't the cheapest where I'm located, and I recently
considered for a nanosecond or two going back to 56K dialup. I tried
my alternate 56K dialup service and it was like going back to the
stone ages. No way!


Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg
 
B

BoB

SNIP

DSL service isn't the cheapest where I'm located, and I recently
considered for a nanosecond or two going back to 56K dialup. I tried
my alternate 56K dialup service and it was like going back to the
stone ages. No way!

My stone-age began with an '85 NCR PC4, dual floppy and 400 baud modem.
Since I have no interest in "streaming media" or DLing music etc, my
max DL speed of around 36-42k is not a problem for me.

I practice Safehex, have no MS products in use, an effective firewall
and no need for realtime AV scanning etc. I just putt along contentedly,
but may never make it out of, what others see as, the stone-age.

BoB
 
N

null

My stone-age began with an '85 NCR PC4, dual floppy and 400 baud modem.
Since I have no interest in "streaming media" or DLing music etc, my
max DL speed of around 36-42k is not a problem for me.

I'm not into that stuff either. Just browsing, email and newsgroups.
That's why I considered dropping DSL. But I'll tell ya, you can really
get spoiled rotten. So be happy in your 36-42K bliss because you'll
never go back there again after broadband. The reliability of my DSL
is what really gets me as well. I was forever having problems with
dialup unreliability and inconsistency.


Art
http://www.epix.net/~artnpeg
 
C

* * Chas

FromTheRafters said:
...but they had better cooling systems.

Cooling Hell! They used them for heating!

" - Real programmers like vending machine popcorn. Coders
pop it in the
microwave oven. Real programmers use the heat given off
by the cpu.
They can tell what job is running just by listening to the
rate of popping."
You probably remember dot matrix messages recorded on
paper tape, and those banner programs featuring playboy
centerfolds.....those were the good ol' days (before they
became so "user friendly")

Line-printer Snoopy calendars for the year 1969 and 10"
Reel-to-Reel Tapes. A ten inch reel of computer tape could
hold about two hundred million characters, occupied one
hundred and four cubic inches of space, and weighed two and
a half pounds.

I was at CMU in the late 60's and had unmonitored access to
their IBM 360 which was the largest Big Iron in existance at
that time. Someone would slide you a punch card. You'ld go
to a terminal with a line printer and run the card. After
much machination it would spit out the time and location of
the next keg party!

A lot of my friends there were working in AI at the time.
;-)

Chas.
 
B

BoB

I'm not into that stuff either. Just browsing, email and newsgroups.
That's why I considered dropping DSL. But I'll tell ya, you can really
get spoiled rotten. So be happy in your 36-42K bliss because you'll
never go back there again after broadband. The reliability of my DSL
is what really gets me as well. I was forever having problems with
dialup unreliability and inconsistency.

I prefer local shop support to put together a computer to 'my' specs.
My new build 98SE, not ready for XP, <$500. This included installing
my old 3 gig HD in a removable drive. Very handy.

I have always used local ISP's. For 10 years I had $25/yr access via
a University connection. Presently for $10 month, access with two
email accts, 12 hr/day telephone support with 4 hrs on Sundays. About
10% of the time it dials twice before getting access.

Beats a Dell and AOL. :)

BoB
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top