new system bootup woes


D

Dustin

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org>
Sun, 21 Dec 2014 23:40:19 GMT in
alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the following message:
It isn't a book, and if you followed the thread...
I did follow the thread...And like a few others, wound up asking the
same questions. ;p
Well... anyway, he could have given some more feedback, but you
could read more than just the point at which you stepped into a
thread at as well.
Feedback is helpful, yes. Especially when you're trying to remote
troubleshoot something. For clarification purposes only though, I
didn't just step into the thread and start shooting my mouth off. I
did notice (as well as a couple of others) I had asked some of the
same questions though. In some cases, going over other replies, he
provides some answers; although not necessarily to the individual
asking the initial question. Again, this makes troubleshooting a
little bit more of a pain.
It isn't like it is the size of a novel.
No, it's not. Shouldn't need to grow that large. I suspect this
newsgroup has some very capable technicians of various kinds. lurking
in the thread I noticed the majority follow the same troubleshooting
procedure, as well.

You almost seem like you'd love to take something I've written apart
and hit me upside the head with it...I can't dismiss you at this point
as a troll though, I've seen some of your own replies and they're
techie enough... you seem to know what you're doing, even if you are
trying to nitpick something myself or another has written.

Some of your replies are completely troll style in nature, but in
others, you fork out IT knowledge that is useful.. so

maybe you're a tech with a bad attitude (like myself). I just don't
know you well enough yet to reach any conclusions. I prefer to make my
own decisions and not rely on others opinions; they could have their
own bias for one reason or another.
 
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P

Paul

DanS said:
All of that is true. Reading the entire thread before I posted, it seemed like everythng
was checked, double-checked and re-checked again.


I can say I've never seen an issue w/too much heatsink compound though. I can't
remember the last system I built that didn't come with the heatsink already having the
optimum layer of compound on it. (Those were all CPUs that came with the fan
though.)
Material is screened onto the Intel-provided heatsinks.

Third party kits tend to leave it to your
imagination. They provide a tube of stuff
(so it's not already applied to the heatsink),
and the people who are prone to buying third-party
coolers (me), provide their own tube of favored stuff.

I use the rice grain method, then use an inspection mirror
to check that the paste made it all the way to the
edge of the gap between CPU and heatsink. You want
to "see white" where the gap is, but not "see stuff
oozing all over the place" as that means you applied
too much.

The purpose of paste is to fill any air gaps or blemishes
in the surface, so the two surfaces are in contact with
one another. Building an "Oreo-cookie" defeats the
purpose, by increasing the thermal resistance through
the excess paste.

More info here. While I started by using the credit
card method, I've since switched to the rice grain
(middle dot) method.

http://www.arcticsilver.com/methods.html

Some paste products are thick enough to be like
cookie dough. And are just about impossible to install
properly. They do that, to prevent "pump-out", but
there's a limit to how thick the stuff should be.

Paul
 
D

Dustin

DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m>
Mon, 22 Dec
2014 13:59:55 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the
following message:
I can say I've never seen an issue w/too much heatsink compound
though. I can't remember the last system I built that didn't come
with the heatsink already having the optimum layer of compound on
it. (Those were all CPUs that came with the fan though.)
It was usually a system brought in that wasn't one of mine. The client
ordered all of the parts online, tried to assemble it and failed to
complete the mission. They took it to me, I'd get it up and going for
them, when possible. In some cases, I couldn't do much to help them,
because they'd already blown components trying to assemble it.

I've had two clients bring in motherboards where you can clearly see
capacitors once lived. When you ask these people what happened; they
give you the shoulder shrug with an 'I don't know' answer.

They follow this up by 'it should be under warranty though, right?'.

heh.
 
D

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

Some of your replies are completely troll style in nature, but in
others, you fork out IT knowledge that is useful.. so

maybe you're a tech with a bad attitude (like myself). I just don't know
you well enough yet to reach any conclusions.

You shouldn't be "reaching". Usenet is a 'bigger picture' place.
"Maybe you're a tech..." how quaint.

Get out of the George Zimmerman assessment dipshit mentality, dipshit.

This is Usenet.
 
D

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

All of that is true. Reading the entire thread before I posted, it
seemed like everything was checked, double-checked and re-checked again.


I can say I've never seen an issue w/too much heatsink compound though.
I can't remember the last system I built that didn't come with the
heatsink already having the optimum layer of compound on it. (Those were
all CPUs that came with the fan though.)
Heat sink compound is meant to take up very tiny air gaps between two
metallic metal planar surfaces.. It brings the mated pair closer to what
a perfectly polished, perfectly planar, air gap free mating would produce.
Taking up those tiny air gaps *should* only comprise a small amount of the
total. A few percent, at most. What the paste is NOT meant to do, and
CANNOT perform as is a thermally conductive bridge to pass heat across a
large gap, where the paste is the entire mating media.

SO, IF you cannot get the item you are attempting to sink heat away from
FLATLY mounted against the sinking device you are mating it with, these
compounds will NOT take up that space, and is NOT meant to do so.

The thinnest layer is ideal, and most of that *should* get squoze out
when the clamped mating occurs. One should ALWAYS examine the mating upon
initial enrergization of the circuit to insure that sinking is taking
place at an acceptable rate.

Been that way for decades. And I have seen some pretty expensive
monster sized FETs and IGBT failures and causes. It wasn't because it was
overdriven.
 
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D

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

Paul <nospam@needed.com> Mon, 22 Dec
2014 14:37:02 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the following
message:


I'm a believer in that stuff. :) I swear by it.
Silver is more electrically conductive than Copper, but I think the two
are nearly even on thermal conductivity.

Silver filled epoxy is the defacto standard in chip die attach.

That "sinking surface" you attach your heat sink to, has the actual chip
die attached to the other side of it, flipped, and silver epoxy mated.
 
A

Adam

Adam said:
Yes, the mobo is still in the Antec case. But, I will be removing it
since
another one will be arriving to replace it in about a week. So,
I can do measurements/tests again when the mobo is out of the case.
The mobo (with CPU and RAM installed, no video card) is
now sitting on cardboard outside the Antec case.

Similar measurements with another better multimeter

purple +5.187VDC, 0VAC
green +4.567VDC, 0VAC

CMOS +2.859VDC
 
P

Paul

Adam said:
The mobo (with CPU and RAM installed, no video card) is
now sitting on cardboard outside the Antec case.

Similar measurements with another better multimeter

purple +5.187VDC, 0VAC
green +4.567VDC, 0VAC

CMOS +2.859VDC
So you're saying it is consistently faulty then.
Not a shorting problem on the bottom of the motherboard.

Paul
 
A

Adam

Paul said:
So you're saying it is consistently faulty then.
Not a shorting problem on the bottom of the motherboard.

Paul
Definitely not a mobo/case shorting problem.

I can remove RAM and measure again.
Then, remove CPU (oh fudge, never had to redo CPU before) and measure again.
 
P

Paul

Adam said:
Definitely not a mobo/case shorting problem.

I can remove RAM and measure again.
Then, remove CPU (oh fudge, never had to redo CPU before) and measure again.
There isn't much reason to propose the results will
change, if modifying those.

The power supply doesn't "feel" the output load,
before deciding to turn on the main outputs.

If you had the fans "twitch", I'd be all in
favor of further testing. Without a twitch,
and with the helpful measurements you've made,
there's no reason to expect that +4.567V to
magically drop to 0.4V.

Paul
 
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A

Adam

Dustin said:
"Adam" <adam@no_thanks.com> Wed, 17
Dec 2014 21:30:18 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the
following message:


Just a suggestion and feel free to take it however you like,

In the future, when seeking help on usenet, it wouldn't hurt to respond
to posters (you tend to respond, but vaguely and only to a few of us
asking you questions?) who ask you questions concerning the problem you
posted about having.

It would also be nice to keep us uptodate on what you have/haven't
tried. And finally, if you've decided to go with a particular posters
advice, you could let the rest of us monitoring the thread know.

Nobody likes wasting their time or repeating themselves in the event
someone else has already made one or more of the same suggestions. It
makes troubleshooting a bit of a hassle this way too.


Good luck with the box and I hope you get it figured out in short order.
Sorry, my system crashed over the weekend causing
a bunch of my response emails to be lost and I lost track which ones.
Didn't mean to ignore anyone.
 
A

Adam

Jonathan N. Little said:
Adam said:
No, not the system, literally the only device connected to
the power supply was just a HDD (no mobo or anything else).
OCZ tech support just wanted to see if the PS fan will spin-up, which it
did.

Next, I connected the mobo with CPU and RAM (but no video card).
OCZ tech support didn't want the video card connected.
Then, the PS fan no longer spins.
Okay here is a WAG. Make sure nothing is shorting your motherboard. Solved
a problem for a local shop that was having a similar problem with a system
they were building. I looked at it and found that he had a misplace
standoff for mounting the motherboard to the case that was shorting a
landline. Yes this can prevent a system from booting.

In fact at this point I would bench test your system. Pull the motherboard
out of the case, set out on a non-conductive surface only connecting a
power supply, monitor, speaker doggle[1], and power switch[2].
Thanks, definitely not a mobo/case shorting problem.
See my earlier post for more details/measurements.

[1] Just a 4 pin black berg connector with pins 1 & 4 collected to little
piezo buzzer to put on front panel header. The post beep codes can be very
helpful to lat you know if anything is working of if the RAM or CPU or
Video is the problem...
Yes, I have one of those tiny speakers connected to the front panel header.

[2] is another 2 pin black berg connector with a momentary switch for the
pwrsw front panel connector, I savage mine from an old system, but it is
easily made from RadioShack components.
Too lazy. I just short PWR-GND with a screwdriver. :)
 
V

VanguardLH

Just to be sure, are you shorting the PWR pin on the mobo header to a
GND pin? Some front panel headers have you short the pins across the
short width of the header. Some have you short the pins along the
length of the header.

Some are like:
PWR
.. . . . .
.. . . | .

And some are like this:

.. . . . .
.. . ._. .
PWR

From the manual for your mobo, the button switch goes lengthwise (2nd
example).

The manual mentions an Asus Q-connector. I think that's to provide a
block that slides onto the mobo's front panel header but might be
polarized to make sure that it doesn't get reversed and has lettering to
help figure out to what the front panel connectors go to on this block.
It looks like:

https://www.techenclave.com/community/attachments/q-connector-jpg.15520/
http://palacsint.hu/files/asus-q-connector.jpg
http://www.overclock3d.net/gfx/articles/2007/10/31181937303l.jpg

It helps make obvious to which pins the front panel connectors connect
to on the mobo header. You don't need it if you go by the manual's
photo or decipher from the silkscreening on the mobo.
 
A

Adam

Paul said:
There isn't much reason to propose the results will
change, if modifying those.

The power supply doesn't "feel" the output load,
before deciding to turn on the main outputs.

If you had the fans "twitch", I'd be all in
favor of further testing. Without a twitch,
and with the helpful measurements you've made,
there's no reason to expect that +4.567V to
magically drop to 0.4V.

Paul
No, PS_ON#/green does not drop LOW even after
shorting PWR-GND with screwdriver.
 
A

Adam

VanguardLH said:
Just to be sure, are you shorting the PWR pin on the mobo header to a
GND pin? Some front panel headers have you short the pins across the
short width of the header. Some have you short the pins along the
length of the header.
Yep, no mistake about it. I shorted the PWR-GND pins for
the "appropriate" mobo. :)
 
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D

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

The power supply doesn't "feel" the output load,
before deciding to turn on the main outputs.

Actually, that is exactly what a current limiting supply does, and the
ATX spec... it will shut down completely if a sudden jolt in consumption
occurs that takes any given rail outside that spec.

I had PC supplies that would shut off if I added a load, like a CD ROM
reader or such.

Pretty sure they still work that way.

So, it comes down to how much "ass" you bought in your PC supply, and
how much "ass" headroom is available once it is up and running under
normal loading, as in the difference between what it can make and what you
are already asking it to do before you ask it to do more.
 
V

VanguardLH

Adam said:
No, PS_ON#/green does not drop LOW even after
shorting PWR-GND with screwdriver.
Look on the backside of the mobo. Are the pins for the front panel
header all soldered okay? Also check for solder flakes or blobs on both
sides of the mobo. They can be hard to see. I've had a couple
motherboards where some solder (a thin thread or flake) shorted across a
couple pins or blivets.

I've even found mobos with wiring on the back that is wrapped too tight
around square pins causing a pinch on the varnish on the wire to get
pierced and short the wire to the pin. A good motherboard should not
have any loose wiring running around unless, say, it a refurbished or
rebuilt unit.

On some crappy PCBs, like from old Raytheon gear, the leads from the
headers or components (caps, resistors, etc) aren't trimmed, get bent
over and short to something else. Something or someone forgot to trim
the component leads.

Sometimes the solder joint is "cold" in that it doesn't flow well.
You'll see a crack between the objects that were supposed to get
soldered together, or solder may be entirely missing, like maybe there
was a bubble in the wave soldering machine or some contaminate on the
PCB that didn't let the solder adhere to the parts. If the board was
repaired, some techs rape the mobo to remove solder and when soldering
on a replacement part or wire. I've see lots to techs that think they
can solder apply too much heat, too much solder, don't know how to
properly use and time a solder sucker or how to use solder wick, or use
the wrong solder. Some techs have the knack to solder but many don't.
Same goes for do-it-yourselfers when soldering copper pipe for their
home plumbing. Seems few understand how solder flows towards the heat,
the acidic change of flux and why its used, and don't have patience to
use a soldering iron or tool of appropiate heat range.

I've had a screwedriver slip which hit the mobo and cut a trace. The
coating makes resoldering difficult so you have to find a cheat on how
to reconstruct the broken trace.

There are lots of defects to check for when inspecting a mobo.
 
V

VanguardLH

VanguardLH said:
I've had a couple motherboards where some solder (a thin thread or
flake) shorted across a couple pins or blivets.
Couldn't remember the term for a very thin thread of solder. It's
called a whisker. A whisker of solder could cause a short. If it
carries only voltage and almost no current then it won't warm up to
melt.
 
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P

Paul

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno said:
Actually, that is exactly what a current limiting supply does, and the
ATX spec... it will shut down completely if a sudden jolt in consumption
occurs that takes any given rail outside that spec.

I had PC supplies that would shut off if I added a load, like a CD ROM
reader or such.

Pretty sure they still work that way.

So, it comes down to how much "ass" you bought in your PC supply, and
how much "ass" headroom is available once it is up and running under
normal loading, as in the difference between what it can make and what you
are already asking it to do before you ask it to do more.
Before you press the button on the front of the computer,
the power supply is not able to monitor what kind of load
may be present on the supply outputs.

From T=0.0ms to T=35ms, the current limiter is turned off.
This is to give the supply time to charge the output capacitance.
The supply is allowed to have around 5000uF on the load side,
and remain stable from a control loop perspective. For example, the
motherboard has 100uF on each USB header pair, for inrush,
and all of those have to be charged.

It's only after T=35ms, that the current limiter is enabled and
the output current monitored.

In that brief 35ms period, the available power (if not completely
shorted out) can cause the fan motor to start spinning. That's
where the "twitch" comes from, on a power supply which is
capable of driving a load, but is eventually overcome by a
short circuit.

Paul
 

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