new system bootup woes

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

That hasn't been established at this point.

Bullshit. The "IT" I refer to IS the power switch.

The supply could still be bad, but if the friggin soft switch makes it
start up, then there is NOTHING wrong with the soft switch, and THAT IS
what the front panel switch on a PC is.

 

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

Seems like good advice to me, if it's a home-brew system then you
run the risks of things not working so well and relying on limited
hardware testing equipment and skills.

Dumb ass. Segment A of your remark suggests "home brew" which
suggests a modicum of brains.

If some lame dork thinks he can "home brew" a system when he has no
clue as a starting point, he should probably learn a bit about learning
before he tries to go learning something 50 degrees above his level.

Segment B of your remark is where one states in response "You should
not be doing it (home brews)at all, unless you have half a clue."

So the two don't even go together, and you suggesting a shop to
someone who built his own box is ludicrous.

A good bit of that "half a clue" is knowing you can get help in places
like this... another thing 'mechanic' fails at.

Being a good diagnostician of the ills of the things one gets involved
with in life is a good thing to be able to do. Some call it common
sense.
Some to a point where it is preemptive common sense.

Like knowing what an idiot like you is going to say next.

 

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

"Adam" <adam@no_thanks.com> Wed,
17 Dec 2014 22:40:03 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the
following message:


Do you have any external devices plugged into it? Sorry if I'm asking
the same questions. Remove everything from it, other than ram, cpu,
etc. Remove all option cards except video (if present). If you have
onboard video option, remove add on video card for now (if present).

Leave keyboard for now, no mouse, nothing else. Try shorting those
pins again... NO hard drives/dvd,bluray, etc. connected to motherboard
or power supply. I just want the mainboard on the power supply for
this test.

And obviously if you're running an add on video card, allow it power
too (if it's got one of those additional power hungry, feed me,
connectors on it).

One should NOT use one's motherboard to test, troubleshoot, or confirm
a PC power supply.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

No, not the system, literally the only device connected to
the power supply was just a HDD (no mobo or anything else).
OCZ tech support just wanted to see if the PS fan will spin-up, which it
did.

Next, I connected the mobo with CPU and RAM (but no video card).
OCZ tech support didn't want the video card connected.
Then, the PS fan no longer spins.

Okay here is a WAG. Make sure nothing is shorting your motherboard.
Solved a problem for a local shop that was having a similar problem with
a system they were building. I looked at it and found that he had a
misplace standoff for mounting the motherboard to the case that was
shorting a landline. Yes this can prevent a system from booting.

In fact at this point I would bench test your system. Pull the
motherboard out of the case, set out on a non-conductive surface only
connecting a power supply, monitor, speaker doggle[1], and power switch[2].

[1] Just a 4 pin black berg connector with pins 1 & 4 collected to
little piezo buzzer to put on front panel header. The post beep codes
can be very helpful to lat you know if anything is working of if the RAM
or CPU or Video is the problem...

[2] is another 2 pin black berg connector with a momentary switch for
the pwrsw front panel connector, I savage mine from an old system, but
it is easily made from RadioShack components.

No only does it isolate your testing, but much easier to add and remove,
and SEE what you are doing when debugging.

 

[Dustin]

"Adam" <adam@no_thanks.com> Wed,
17 Dec 2014 21:17:25 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the
following message:

No, not the system, literally the only device connected to
the power supply was just a HDD (no mobo or anything else).
OCZ tech support just wanted to see if the PS fan will spin-up,
which it did.

Next, I connected the mobo with CPU and RAM (but no video card).
OCZ tech support didn't want the video card connected.
Then, the PS fan no longer spins.

Hmm. Already tried re-seating both? If so, and it's still dead like
this, remove the RAM, leave the cpu. If it has a tiny onboard peizo
like buzzer, it'll make a few chirps when you try to power it up. I
want to see if the PS remains on when you try shorting those pins, or
if it shuts down again.

 

[Dustin]

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <[email protected]>
Thu, 18 Dec 2014
15:19:31 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the following
message:

One should NOT use one's motherboard to test, troubleshoot, or
confirm a PC power supply.

I wasn't attempting to do that yet... So far, I'm not thinking it's
the PS itself anyway. And, no, you're right; that's what multi meters
are for. however, there's nothing wrong with that advice I provided.
It's fairly common practice and is usually tried in multiple ways; but
it's really not for troubleshooting the PS per say, it's for seeing
WTF is wrong with the system build. [g]

I suppose you know that though...

 

[Paul]

CPU:
AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz Socket AM3 125W Quad-Core
Processor HDZ965FBGMBOX

is not listed.

Phenom II X4 940 125W
http://products.amd.com/en-gb/DesktopCPUDetail.aspx?id=509

Phenom II X4 965 125W
http://products.amd.com/en-us/DesktopCPUDetail.aspx?id=617

You can substitute the 940 for your 965. If it had been
the 140W processor, another substitution might have been
required.

Paul

 

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <[email protected]>
Thu, 18 Dec 2014
15:19:31 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the following
message:

One should NOT use one's motherboard to test, troubleshoot, or
confirm a PC power supply.

I wasn't attempting to do that yet... So far, I'm not thinking it's
the PS itself anyway. And, no, you're right; that's what multi meters
are for. however, there's nothing wrong with that advice I provided.
It's fairly common practice and is usually tried in multiple ways; but
it's really not for troubleshooting the PS per say, it's for seeing
WTF is wrong with the system build. [g]

I suppose you know that though...

Let's just say that if one has a 'just previously working' system that
suddenly is no longer working, and a hard supply failure is the
suspected cause, I would be separating my expensive machine from a
suspected multi-output power source in a heartbeat.

Only because I have a cheap device I can plug into that same connector
and get readings on each supply output from.

I can also find (have) ways to load it for real world under load
testing too.

But risk my $2500 nick nack paddy wack tic toc mousey clock that way...
Not if I can avoid it.

 

[Paul]

Bullshit. The "IT" I refer to IS the power switch.

The supply could still be bad, but if the friggin soft switch makes it
start up, then there is NOTHING wrong with the soft switch, and THAT IS
what the front panel switch on a PC is.

Actually, no it is not.

There is intervening logic, including both Southbridge
and SuperIO circuits.

Front_Panel_Switch -------- (Southbridge,SuperIO) -------- PS_ON#

The front panel switch does not lead directly to PS_ON#.

And no reference schematic I've got, does a good job of
making that traceable. The Intel schematics don't use
readily available SuperIO, so you can look up how they work.

As an example of what the intervening logic does...

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/power-supply-specifications-atx-reference,3061-6.html

"Tip: The design of the ATX power switch is such that the motherboard
actually controls the status of the power supply. On systems with
full support for ACPI, when you press the power switch, the motherboard
informs the OS to perform an orderly shutdown before the power is
actually turned off. However, if the system is locked up or corrupted,
it can remain running when you press the switch. In that situation,
you can manually override the ACPI control by pressing the switch
continuously for more than four seconds, which overrides the software
control and forcibly turns off the system."

Once the OS is running, the intervening logic imposes a 4 second
timer. If the OS has access to the ACPI Power Button object, a
quick press of the Power button on the front, causes an interrupt
to the OS, and no other response. It's up to the OS to map
this according to the power schema.

If the OS is crashed, continuously depressing the Power switch
on the front, will exceed the 4 second debounce timer, and then
the Southbridge will deassert PS_ON# and kill the power.

From the previous schematic I presented, this is the Southbridge.
PDF page 130 has the state table for SUSC signal, the one controlling
PS_ON# (by way of the 74F07 output driver).

http://www.intel.com/assets/pdf/datasheet/290562.pdf

The Southbridge needs this control, for wake events. The user
plugs a PCI NIC card into the PC. The PCI NIC card happens to have
a PME signal (power management event). If a wake up packet is received,
it causes PME on the NIC card to be asserted, and that signal travels
down the bus to the Southbridge. The Southbridge responds by changing
the SUSC signal, to turn on the ATX supply.

Another example event, is using the RTC alarm register. The PC can be
programmed to wake at a particular HH:MM:SS. When the RTC alarm
fires in the Southbridge, that will cause SUSC to come back on as well.

Since the SuperIO has wake events as well (PS/2 keyboard and PS/2 mouse),
it gets a say in waking the computer.

So there's a decent bit of logic, which prevents direct signal passage
from the front switch, to PS_ON#.

Paul

 

[Dustin]

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <[email protected]>
Thu, 18 Dec 2014
16:18:26 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the following
message:

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <[email protected]>
Thu, 18 Dec 2014
15:19:31 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the following
message:

"Adam" <adam@no_thanks.com> Wed, 17 Dec 2014 22:40:03 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,
wrote the following message:

"Adam" <adam@no_thanks.com>
Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:00:51
GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the following
message:

Host OS: Ubuntu Desktop 12.04 LTS
Motherboard: ASUS Sabertooth 990FX AM3+ AMD SATA 6Gb/s USB
3.0 ATX Computer Case: Antec Three Hundred ATX Mid Tower
Power Supply: OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W Modular


I am having trouble with power to brand new system.

After talking with OCZ tech support and doing a simple test,
we were able to get the PS fan to spin-up. OCZ Tech support
concludes that this is a strong indication that the PS is
functional.

Next, I suspect that the Antec case's I/O panel wiring to
mobo pins may be the culprit. The wiring seems fine to me
but still no power.

Take the wiring off the pins. Locate the power pins, touch
them both at the same time with a small screwdriver; See if
your box powers up. if it does, you've determined the problem
is most likely in the panel wiring and you can track it down
from there.


No, shorting PWR-GND with a small screwdriver didn't work
either.

Do you have any external devices plugged into it? Sorry if I'm
asking the same questions. Remove everything from it, other than
ram, cpu, etc. Remove all option cards except video (if present).
If you have onboard video option, remove add on video card for
now (if present).

Leave keyboard for now, no mouse, nothing else. Try shorting
those pins again... NO hard drives/dvd,bluray, etc. connected to
motherboard or power supply. I just want the mainboard on the
power supply for this test.

And obviously if you're running an add on video card, allow it
power too (if it's got one of those additional power hungry, feed
me, connectors on it).




One should NOT use one's motherboard to test, troubleshoot, or
confirm a PC power supply.

I wasn't attempting to do that yet... So far, I'm not thinking it's
the PS itself anyway. And, no, you're right; that's what multi
meters are for. however, there's nothing wrong with that advice I
provided. It's fairly common practice and is usually tried in
multiple ways; but it's really not for troubleshooting the PS per
say, it's for seeing WTF is wrong with the system build. [g]

I suppose you know that though...

Let's just say that if one has a 'just previously working' system
that suddenly is no longer working, and a hard supply failure is
the suspected cause, I would be separating my expensive machine
from a suspected multi-output power source in a heartbeat.

So would I. I just re-read every single post by the OP, unless you've
read something I missed, this system is a new build? and hasn't been
running? yet....I believe I mentioned that under system build. you
know, when you've finished the assembly and begin firing it up for
the first time...I took the OP to mean he just finished putting it
together, but cannot get it to power on.

Usually, it goes as planned, occasionally, you have bad components
and you get to do some troubleshooting. Besides, the OCZ tech would
have already toasted him before he posted here if the PS had an issue.
He's already tested the PS with that mb several times.

Only because I have a cheap device I can plug into that same
connector and get readings on each supply output from.
Ayep...

I can also find (have) ways to load it for real world under load
testing too.

Same here.

 

[Paul]

No, not the system, literally the only device connected to
the power supply was just a HDD (no mobo or anything else).
OCZ tech support just wanted to see if the PS fan will spin-up, which it
did.

Next, I connected the mobo with CPU and RAM (but no video card).
OCZ tech support didn't want the video card connected.
Then, the PS fan no longer spins.

Unless I missed it, all we've seen so far, is with the
ATX supply connected to the motherboard, the ATX supply
doesn't come on. You had CPU and RAM installed during that
test.

The intervening logic (Southbridge/SuperIO) should be
relatively independent of other subsystems on the motherboard.
If the PSU was actually being overloaded, we might have
coaxed a "twitch" out of the fan blades. That would then
be telling us, we're in the domain of a power (short circuit)
fault. This is why checking for a "twitch", is an important
clue as to fault type.

One thing that prevents operation of PS_ON#, is the state
of the CMOS battery (CR2032 coin cell). With the multimeter set
to volts, you touch the top of that battery to get a reading.
It should be 3V. The minimum voltage is 2.0V + one schottky
diode drop or about 2.3V. If the battery is below 2.3V,
it might not start. It's when the battery is right down to
0.0V, that some motherboard logic simply refuses to turn
on the ATX Supply. Even though the green LED is on, the
motherboard is receiving +5VSB supervisory power, and in
theory, everything should work. I have not read of a reason
why some motherboards simply clam up, when the battery is
completely flat. I have plenty of PCs here, that start no
problem, with an absolutely flat CMOS battery. So I haven't
been able to reproduce the experience here.

Normally, I would say "take the CR2032 coin cell to Radio Shack
and have them test it". But at least one poster I gave the
advice to, managed to rip the entire CR2032 socket off the
board, ruining the motherboard. So now I have to include
the veiled warning "well, don't rip the battery socket
off the motherboard". The battery socket design is a damn
nuisance. Testing in place first, at least helps you decide
whether to attack and remove that battery

If the Asus motherboard is "new", check the serial number
on the label. The first two characters give the year and
month of manufacture. If the board is more than three years
old, the already-inserted CMOS battery will be dead.

The motherboard I bought in August, has the serial number

E4xxxxxxxxxx

which would be 2014 April. E is hexidecimal for 14. The
months go something like 0123456789AB. Even the leading
character would give some idea of the age. D would be 2013.
C would be 2012. And so on.

*******

Make sure ATX12V 2x2 or 2x4 connector is connected, and has
been inserted with the correct orientation. The system
should not be gating power state based on that cable.
The fans would spin, without the cable connected. I'm just
making sure you've connected both power cables.

Paul

 

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

Actually, no it is not.

There is intervening logic, including both Southbridge
and SuperIO circuits.

Front_Panel_Switch -------- (Southbridge,SuperIO) -------- PS_ON#

The front panel switch does not lead directly to PS_ON#.

And no reference schematic I've got, does a good job of
making that traceable. The Intel schematics don't use
readily available SuperIO, so you can look up how they work.

As an example of what the intervening logic does...

It is STILL a "soft" momentary contact, NON-power carrying switch.

It is meant to switch logic which then empowers the heavy supply gear
with transistors up to that task. It switched logic when it wormed its
way straight to the PS itself as well.

I remember old, reed switch wired pinball machines, and I remember as
soft switches and SCRs got introduced into that realm and what it meant
to switch longevity. I think I know a soft switch when I see one. It
is not likely the PC case has a Circuit card and a carbon pad type soft
switch, so it is safe to say there are real contacts, and having never
experienced any amperage to worry about degradation by, it is pretty
safe to say it is OK.

UNLESS cheap chinese crap design got phased into that case design.

It is all chinese, but some of it is cheap chinese.

I like Antec, myself. A good value, and solid design.

Everybody (manufacturers) else went idiot style on their case designs,
because of the baseball cap collector mentality idiot demographic they
are targeting.

Bwuahahahahaha Funny...

BRL!!

 

[Paul]

One should NOT use one's motherboard to test, troubleshoot, or confirm
a PC power supply.

Sure, one can.

But I recommend having some additional electrical load. (Even though
no PSU I have here, has shown "minimum load" characteristics. But there
were some supplies with two lines of numbers on the PSU label, one
line being the "minimum load" line. If you have an ancient supply
like that, pay attention to that label.)

You can take a motherboard with no CPU or RAM on it, and
*still* turn the ATX supply on and off with it. I've done
it, just to prove the point. With no CPU or RAM, the
Southbridge and SuperIO logic in that path, still function.
Both default clocks and reset logic are in place, to
bring the chipset up in a sane state. VCore is switched
off via the floating VID pins (no CPU installed).

Paul

 

[VanguardLH]

Adam wrote:

Did you spread a thin transparent layer of thermal past on the cpu or
did you glop it on like paint?

With the PSU connected to the mobo, do both the CPU and PSU fans even
jerk or twitch a bit when you short the PWR pin on the mobo's front
panel header?

If CPU fan speed is too low or zero, the BIOS will shutdown the system.
This is to prevent the CPU from burning up. Did you separately test the
CPU fan connected to a 12V output from the PSU to make sure it will spin
under power? Did you connect the CPU fan to the correct mobo header?
Are you trying to use a 3-wire CPU fan on a 4-pin mobo CPU header?
While the thermal checks in BIOS may take a few seconds to kick in, like
you forgot the thermal paste or the heatsink wasn't put onto the CPU, a
zero RPM CPU fan often causes immediate shutdown.

When you did the PSU+HDD test (no mobo) and when shorting PS_ON to
ground which got the PSU fan spinning, did you test the 5V standby
voltage from the PSU? Even when you "power off" the computer but as
long as the PSU is connected to an A/C power source, the PSU will
continue to supply 5V as standby voltage to the mobo. The old AT PSUs
used a case switch that went directly to the PSU. The ATX PSUs rely on
soft power logic on the mobo to tell it when to fully power on. That
is, the case switch goes to the mobo to have logic on the mobo decide
when the PSU will fully power up. With the computer "off", the PSU
should still output 5V (aka 5VSB). Without the 5V standby voltage from
the PSU, the mobo logic is dead.

Did you yet get a multimeter so you can check if the PSU, when connected
into an A/C power source, is putting out 5V standby voltage (both when
it is disconnected from and also when connected to the mobo)? It's the
"+5VSB" line shown in the linked photo I gave before.

 

[VanguardLH]

...


No, CPU fan does not spin. No fans spin.

With the CPU fan's connector disconnected from the mobo, can you flick a
blade on the CPU fan to get it to spin? Does it spin okay for a couple
rotations? If you slowly move the blades around, like putting your
finger on the blade hub, is it smooth with no grittiness or catching?

Separately test the CPU fan to make sure it will spin under power.
Disconnect CPU fan and PSU from mobo, connect CPU fan to 12V and ground
leads on 24-pin power connector and short PS_ON ((or use your 12V car
battery while the car is not running) to see if the CPU fan will spin
under power.

If the BIOS senses low or zero RPM for the CPU fan, it shutdown the
computer to prevent thermal damage to the CPU. If the CPU fan isn't
connected to the correct mobo header (e.g., you connected the CPU fan to
a header marked for a case fan), the BIOS sees zero RPM on the CPU fan
header.

If power is getting from CPU to mobo and the CPU fan is connected to the
correct mobo header, and if there isn't a problem with the soft logic on
the mobo for letting the PSU fully power up (see my other reply)
because, say, the 5VSB line is dead, then I would've expected the CPU
fan to jerk or twitch a bit when the PWR pins on the mobo header were
shorted. They might not spin but they should twitch.

Yes, cable runs from video card to PS.

I was thinking you could test by removing the video daughtercard and use
the onboard video. For single-point setups (i.e., just one computer), I
usually get a mobo with onboard video even if I add a much better video
card. Gives me a backup when a video card craps out. Alas, doesn't
look like this mobo includes onboard video as a backup.

Have you tried removing the video card from the mobo and hooking the PSU
to the mobo to test that way? No, you won't get any video but I don't
recall the lack of a video card will prevent powering up the system.
Video BIOS comes up (and you'll hear a single beep) before system BIOS;
else, you wouldn't see the BIOS and POST screens. At this point, it's
not important to make the setup bootable but just, for now, to get it to
stay powered up.

Did you make sure the video card was fully seated? Remove and fully
push it into the slot. Some connectors are stiff and I had a buddy that
worked on his PC for 2 months and even returned and waited for
replacement parts trying to get it to boot. He brought it into work and
was going to use some spare hosts in our alpha lab to swap out parts. I
walked in before he started and noticed something odd about the
positioning of the video card. Pulled it out and then pushed it back in
but made sure to go beyond the 1st "indent feel" to get the card seated
all the way down. His PC booted okay.

By the way, if you feel you need to clean the contacts on PCBs, like
video cards or memory modules, you know NOT to use a pink eraser, right?
That scores the surface. Only use a white eraser.

 

[mechanic]

Like knowing what an idiot like you is going to say next.

You misunderstood what I was saying. But all water under the bridge.

 

[mechanic]

Being a good diagnostician of the ills of the things one gets involved
with in life is a good thing to be able to do.

I notice we haven't heard much about the DLUNU approach to avoiding
ESD damage yet on this thread - probably just as well.

 

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno]

I notice we haven't heard much about the DLUNU approach to avoiding
ESD damage yet on this thread - probably just as well.

Yet another mouthy little bitch who thinks he wants to ne a mouthy
little punk.

I'd mash your little punk bitch ass mouth were you within reach, twerp.

And you know **** all nothing about PCs, much less electronics, much
less ESD susceptibilities in ANY piece of gear. You take stupid
****tard to an all new low.

You are planted firmly at the bottom of that totem pole. And yes, you
probably know **** all nothing about that idiom either.

 

[Rodney Pont]

Host OS: Ubuntu Desktop 12.04 LTS
Motherboard: ASUS Sabertooth 990FX AM3+ AMD SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX
Computer Case: Antec Three Hundred ATX Mid Tower
Power Supply: OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W Modular


I am having trouble with power to brand new system.

After talking with OCZ tech support and doing a simple test,
we were able to get the PS fan to spin-up. OCZ Tech support concludes that
this is a strong indication that the PS is functional.

Next, I suspect that the Antec case's I/O panel wiring to mobo pins may
be the culprit. The wiring seems fine to me but still no power.
Maybe a loose connection? How to make a stronger connection?

Any ideas?

You have connected the secondary ATX power connector haven't you? I was
just reading the Asus X99-Pro manual and noticed it said that the
system wouldn't boot without it being connected.

 

[Adam]

Phenom II X4 940 125W
http://products.amd.com/en-gb/DesktopCPUDetail.aspx?id=509

Phenom II X4 965 125W
http://products.amd.com/en-us/DesktopCPUDetail.aspx?id=617

You can substitute the 940 for your 965. If it had been
the 140W processor, another substitution might have been
required.

Paul

My bad, it's listed under Socket AM3 (not Socket AM3+).

Anyways, I bought a multimeter and
a Corsair Builder Series CX 750 (availability prevails).

Will work more on it tomorrow.