new system bootup woes


V

VanguardLH

Adam said:
On a side note, the Antec case's front panel power switches seem really
flimsy so
I may need to go buy a switch button for PWR-GND pins. Any recommendations?

Alas, cases vary what physical mounting is used for the Power switch
even between models from the same vendor. Even the throw length (how
long is the stem sticking out of the switch) can vary. You'll have to
see if you can pop off the front cover of the case to get at the
switch(es) and then check how they mounted the switch to the case.

Put an ohmmeter or continuity tester across the PWR leads from the case
switch going to the mobo PWR pins. See if it shorts when you depress
the case switch. Wiggle the button around to see if it has a flaky
connection. If the Power button and switch work okay that came with the
case, that's not your power up problem.

Does the system power up if you take a jumper and put it across the 2
pins on the mobo header for PWR? Don't leave it on the pins. Just push
on and pull off. Or, like Paul mention, just temporarily short from PWR
pin to a GND pin. If the shorting works, it's not a problem with the
Power button and switch in the case nor a problem with the soft logic on
the motherboard.

Have you disconnected everything from the PSU except the required mobo
connections (24-pin and 8-pin headers), removed all but one HDD, removed
all but one memory module, yanked all the USB devices (except keyboard
and mouse), and even pulled the video card (if the mobo has onboard
video) to reduce to minimal load on the PSU?

Again, do you see the CPU spin or start to spin and then stop when you
push on the case's Power button? Do you hear the HDD spin up? Does the
HDD make clicking noises? When you first apply power for a cold start,
do you hear a single beep which means the video BIOS is okay? The video
BIOS has to load before the system BIOS; else, you wouldn't see any BIOS
or POST screens. Even if the case doesn't have a speaker, the mobo
probably has a piezo speaker soldered onto it for the status beeps.

Besides plugging the PSU to the 24-pin mobo header for power labelled
"EATXPWR", you did plug into the PSU to the 8-pin header labelled
"EATX12V" on the mobo, right?

Are you booting from an internal or external drive? What type of drive?
Do you ever see the POST screen? Can you get into the BIOS screens? If
so, have you reset the BIOS to defaults?

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/5714/Sabertooth Oblique.JPG
http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/SocketAM3+/SABERTOOTH_990FX/E6674_SABERTOOTH_990FX_V2_u.zip

Section 2.3.8 of the mobo's manual also shows how the front panel
connectors are oriented on the mobo header. Did you orient the front
panel connectors sideways (along the length of the header) or did you
orient them across (the short widtch of the header)?
 
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M

mike

snipped good advice.

I had a system that wouldn't power on...sometimes.
Measured the auxiliary 5V supply and the meter said 5V.
Chased my tail for a while.
Put an oscilloscope on the auxiliary 5V supply and discovered
that the capacitor had gone bad. The average voltage
was indeed 5V, but it had more than 5V of ripple.
Changed the cap in the power supply and the computer
powers on reliably.

Dug thru the junkbox and looked at other "bad supplies"
and found the same problem in several of them.

You wouldn't expect this problem on a NEW supply, but
stuff does happen.

If you don't have a meter, you probably don't have an
oscilloscope.
 
A

Adam

mike said:
I'd be very careful about attaching wires to the motherboard.
If the humidity is 90%, you're likely ok. If it's 30% you're
gonna zap some chip input eventually.

I had occasion to troubleshoot a non-booting machine.
The wire from the power button went directly to the input
of the big glue chip that runs everything. And the signal
never came out of the chip to start the power supply.
Game over.

Okay, no wire. That was easy.

Actually, after shorting PWR-GND with a screwdriver still failed,
I've decided to let that rest for now since the power switch is not the
problem.

Instead, I'm planning to replace the battery with ..

Corsair Builder Series CX 500 Watt ATX/EPS 80 PLUS (CX500)

Is 500W sufficient? Or, should I try the 600W version?

http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Builder-Series-Watt-CX500/dp/B0092ML0MY
 
A

Adam

mike said:
Ram has always been a crap-shoot for me.
Don't think I've ever bought any new ram, so what I have has
cryptic markings. I have one mobo where the vendor and Crucial
disagree on what RAM it takes.

Assume you've tried whatever jumper changes to reset the CMOS?
If you had a voltmeter you'd be able to check the CMOS battery.
Or whether there was voltage on the power switch and whether
it went to zero when you pushed the button.

I'll save resetting the CMOS for later.

Assume you put the processor in the right way and didn't bend
the socket pins or get a speck of dust in there...or static-zap
the processor.

Had one system that wouldn't boot after I got it home from the
garage sale on a motorcycle. Removing the fan/heatsink and reseating
the processor fixed it.

Hopefully, I won't need to redo the CPU. It was not easy to install.
This is a last resort.

That begs the question, are you absolutely sure you have a compatible
processor?

CPU:
AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz Socket AM3 125W Quad-Core
Processor HDZ965FBGMBOX

I think this CPU/mobo pairing is compatible, isn't it?

I have a Dell system that I tried to upgrade. Same processor family.
Speed compatible. All indications from Intel are that it should work
exactly like the one that's in there.
Problem is that Dell never updated the bios to put in the newer
identifier and the processor is rejected. No boot.

I seem to be long on identifying potential problems and short
on solutions.

It's good to know potential causes in case I missed something.
 
A

Adam

VanguardLH said:
Oh, that "trouble" since there can only be one. It's a secret trouble.

Doesn't sound like an OS problem since the unidentified "trouble" is
probably to get it powered on which is before the OS is even loaded by
the BIOS.


Not really. PSUs that have crapped out by not being able to handle the
load can still spin their own fan(s).

Did you notice if the CPU's fan is spinning, too?

No, CPU fan does not spin. No fans spin.

If using a mechanical HDD, do you hear it spin up on power on? How many
HDDs are connected? Tried with just one?

No drives are connected right now. Just the bare minimum for now.

Did you populate all mobo RAM slots with matched memory modules? Or did
you mix them? They have a warning on their spec page saying "AMD 100
series CPUs support up to DDR3 1066MHz. With ASUS design, this
motherboard can support up to DDR3 1333MHz."

I have a matched pair of memory module in DIMM_A2 and DIMM_B2.
And, they do not touch the CPU assembly at all.

Did you disconnect all USB devices and then retest that the "trouble"
went away?

No USB devices are connected.

Do you have a separate daughtercard for the video? Or are you using
onboard video? If a daughtercard, did you remember to hook up the PSU
4-pin connector to the video card's extra power connector?

Yes, cable runs from video card to PS.

The mobo has a 24-pin power connector. The PSU may come with a 20+4
connector: 20 pins in one connector with an ancilliary 4-pin connector
you add (slide on or rotate and snap into place). Did you use 24 pins
from the PSU to the 24-pin power connector on the mobo? Did you connect
an 8-pin connector from the PSU to the 8-pin power connector on the
mobo? The manual says "Do not forget to connect the 4-pin/8-pin EATX12
V power plug; otherwise, the system will not boot."

Yes, to all.

With modular PSUs, sometimes users hook up only the minimal connects and
omit some crucial ones.

I followed the instructions in the mobo manual.

Do you have 2 high-end PCI-e x16 video cards? If so, Asus recommends a
1000W PSU.

No, just one video card ...

Display Adapter:
Sapphire 100315L Radeon HD 6850 Video Card - 1024MB, GDDR5, PCIe,
mini-Display Port, HDMI, Dual DVI
 
A

Adam

Paul said:
This is the multimeter I've used for years. I don't like autoranging
meters all that much, and would rather rotate the selector and
stay set to one particular range.

http://www.repeater-builder.com/radio-shack/22-168/22-168a-face.jpg

I use the right-most two holes for most measurements. Most of
the time, I'm doing Volts or Ohms. I measure current a lot less
often. I would measure currents of say, up to half an amp,
with the multimeter. But nothing higher.

You can get an acceptable meter for $20. The one in that picture
was $100 when new, roughly. One feature that meter has, is an
opto-isolated RS232 interface, so the meter will upload
readings once a second over RS232, and the interface is
opto-isolated, so you can work on high voltage on the meter
end, without damage to the PC end.

*******

For PC current flows, I use one of these, a DC clamp-on ammeter.
It's a non-contact instrument, so no circuit wires need to be
cut to make a measurement. It uses a Hall probe. No, you don't
need one of these, as they're too expensive. I like mine, and have
worked on my car with it (checked to see that starter motor
was drawing 150A DC peak). I also used to check the
compressor current on my central air conditioner with it
(as it also does AC).

https://web.archive.org/web/2009040...om/instruments/product.asp?catid=26&prodid=87

They make those in AC-only ones (no good) or AC/DC ones.
And the AC/DC is what I've got. The AC-only ones tend to
be cheaper. There's no reason for a Hall probe to be
expensive, so it's just the usual market pricing
(know the buyers can afford it).

That clamp-on meter, is how I know (roughly) the power
draw of the CPU, when idle or busy.

HTH,
Paul

Thanks, you sure have neat tools/toys. :)
 
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M

mike

Okay, no wire. That was easy.

Actually, after shorting PWR-GND with a screwdriver still failed,
I've decided to let that rest for now since the power switch is not the
problem.

Instead, I'm planning to replace the battery with ..
Battery????

Corsair Builder Series CX 500 Watt ATX/EPS 80 PLUS (CX500)

Is 500W sufficient? Or, should I try the 600W version?

I can't advise on that.
My system is 2.6GHz quad core and idles at 75W measured at the
AC power cord.

Might be cheaper to buy or borrow a very cheap used computer so you can
swap parts to determine the weak link.
You're in a pickle because you have too many variables and no
test equipment.
Before I spent a lot of money shotgunning the problem, I'd try
to get some local help.
Are there no computer clubs in your area?
Ham radio clubs have helpful people with test equipment.
Libraries often offer computer help. Maybe they'd put you in
contact with one of the volunteer instructors. Ditto for local
educational institutions. There may be an appropriate
category to ask for help on the local Craigslist venue.

Post your location. Surely somebody knows somebody within
driving distance willing to help.

And do get yourself a voltmeter.
Come by here and I'll give you a harbor freight one or two or three
or four.... ;-)
 
R

RayLopez99

Next, I suspect that the Antec case's I/O panel wiring to mobo pins may
be the culprit. The wiring seems fine to me but still no power.
Maybe a loose connection? How to make a stronger connection?

Any ideas?

Check the push button wires leading to the switch on the mobo for on/off. They always seem to fail or be loose, on a new system or even old system.

RL
 
D

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

So send it back to the shop!

'mechanic' is an absolute retard and his choice of nym solidifies that
fact, when coupled with the absolutely stupid horseshit that he spews
forth with.
 
D

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

Although that seems to be your lot in life, I believe your statement
(above) qualifies for understatement of the millennium.

Cybe R. Wizard

Yeah, with mechanic as his retardation quest mistress.
 
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D

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

Alas, cases vary what physical mounting is used for the Power switch
even between models from the same vendor. Even the throw length (how
long is the stem sticking out of the switch) can vary. You'll have to
see if you can pop off the front cover of the case to get at the
switch(es) and then check how they mounted the switch to the case.

Total bullshit. The "Power Switch" on ALL PCs is a "soft switch" and
carries NO POWER whatsoever.

If it make the power supply start, it works. PERIOD.
 
D

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

snipped good advice.

You are so stupid, you would not know what good advice is, because you
are absolutely clueless about the hardware you are here expounding on,
when you don't know the first thing about it.

Mr. continuity retard.

You are the LAST person I would want ANY advice from about ANYTHING to
do with computers.
I had a system that wouldn't power on...sometimes.
Measured the auxiliary 5V supply and the meter said 5V.
Chased my tail for a while.

All of your life, putz.
Put an oscilloscope on the auxiliary 5V supply and discovered
that the capacitor had gone bad. The average voltage
was indeed 5V, but it had more than 5V of ripple.

You are so stupid that you do not even know the meanings of the terms
you errantly use.
Changed the cap in the power supply and the computer
powers on reliably.

If you had bought something besides a cheap shit brand PS, you would
never have had "the problem".
Dug thru the junkbox and looked at other "bad supplies"
and found the same problem in several of them.

Again... You are an idiot, and YOU are the PARD in this world.
You wouldn't expect this problem on a NEW supply, but
stuff does happen.

You're an idiot, and that is what has happened.
If you don't have a meter, you probably don't have an
oscilloscope.

And you do not know how to use either, much less where to probe or
have a clue as to what you are probing.
 
D

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

You're in a pickle because you have too many variables and no
test equipment.

With the stupid shit idiots like you spew being the biggest variable
he has to face.

What to use from the pile of pure bullshit you idiots are spewing.
 
D

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

Before I spent a lot of money shotgunning the problem, I'd try
to get some local help.

Everything YOU do is a retarded 'shotgun' of stupidity injection from
the host... you.
 
P

Paul

Adam said:
Okay, no wire. That was easy.

Actually, after shorting PWR-GND with a screwdriver still failed,
I've decided to let that rest for now since the power switch is not the
problem.

Instead, I'm planning to replace the battery with ..

Corsair Builder Series CX 500 Watt ATX/EPS 80 PLUS (CX500)

Is 500W sufficient? Or, should I try the 600W version?

http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Builder-Series-Watt-CX500/dp/B0092ML0MY

Use the calculator and check the power required.
You have to enter the inventory inside the computer, to
get an answer.

http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

Paul
 
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P

Paul

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno said:
Total bullshit. The "Power Switch" on ALL PCs is a "soft switch" and
carries NO POWER whatsoever.

If it make the power supply start, it works. PERIOD.

That hasn't been established at this point.

The OCZ tech support, had Adam check this far. They had
him connect PS_ON# to GND and verify the power supply
started. Now, normally you would want to verify the
PSU output voltages at this point. I use a load
box for this kind of test, then connect the multimeter
to each rail. My load box draws about a hundred watts
of power, to simulate a light load.

(0.0V level +5VSB
means "run please") |
\_ Pullup
\ Resistor
PS_ON# |
-------------------+- ... control
(to of main
ATX + PSU
supply) | section
GND

What remains to be buzzed out, is converting the
pulse signal from the front of the computer, into
a logic level on PS_ON#. The motherboard response
needs to be checked.

The power switch on the front of the case, is required
to switch only a small amount of current. The PWR/GND
interface is a logic level interface, and only a milliamp
of current flows through the front panel switch. The switch
is momentary contact. The motherboard logic latches the
short pulse produced when you close the contacts on the
front panel two terminals (the ones on the left). The
motherboard output is the PS_ON# signal, a wire on
the main ATX power cable (24 pin one on modern systems).

+5VSB (0.0V level +5VSB
| means "run please") |
Pullup \_ Pullup
Resistor \ Resistor
| PS_ON# |
PWR X----+---- Motherboard ---- Open -------------------+- ... control
/ logic Collector (to of main
| GND X----+ Driver ATX + PSU
| | supply) | section
(Front GND GND
Panel
Switch - normally open, momentarily close to operate)

To determine whether the motherboard or PSU is defective, requires
doing these couple tests, and verifying the voltage level on
PS_ON#. PS_ON# is also a logic level interface, and
the motherboard logic only has to sink a couple milliamps
of current. The difference with PS_ON# is, it's a level
interface, and so has to be held at the 0.4V level for
as long as the PSU is to remain operating the main outputs.

Motherboards at one time, had powerful drivers on their end.
They would use something like a 74F07. See PDF page 18 here.
The B_SUSC signal goes to pin 14 on the ATX 20 pin connector,
which is PS_ON#. PDF page 32 has the other reference to that
signal.

http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/designex/BXDPDG10.PDF

You can ground PS_ON# while the system is assembled, and
usurp control from the motherboard and turn on the supply.
This is possible, because PS_ON# is open collector logic,
and grounding PS_ON# is wired-OR logic. It's safe to do.
Not all digital logic with TTL/CMOS levels is safe that
way, as other chips aren't designed to be shorted. But
PS_ON# only drives low, so driving low with an external
wire doesn't hurt it.

But I don't recommend doing that, because THERMTRIP
on the motherboard gates PS_ON# and provides thermal
protection for the CPU. If you override the above
logic, the motherboard has no way to remove
power if you're holding the system on by grounding
the PS_ON# wire with everything assembled.

But if you're on a desert island, these are the things
you can try.

Paul
 
M

mechanic

'mechanic' is an absolute retard and his choice of nym solidifies that
fact, when coupled with the absolutely stupid horseshit that he spews
forth with.

Seems like good advice to me, if it's a home-brew system then you
run the risks of things not working so well and relying on limited
hardware testing equipment and skills. Ready made systems of various
capability are available so cheaply in eBay these days...

(This one I'm working on is a Dell latitude laptop E6410 that cost
£100 or so, price all that up with new components!)
 
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D

Dustin

"Adam" <[email protected]_thanks.com> Wed,
17 Dec 2014 22:40:03 GMT in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the
following message:
No, shorting PWR-GND with a small screwdriver didn't work either.

Do you have any external devices plugged into it? Sorry if I'm asking
the same questions. Remove everything from it, other than ram, cpu,
etc. Remove all option cards except video (if present). If you have
onboard video option, remove add on video card for now (if present).

Leave keyboard for now, no mouse, nothing else. Try shorting those
pins again... NO hard drives/dvd,bluray, etc. connected to motherboard
or power supply. I just want the mainboard on the power supply for
this test.

And obviously if you're running an add on video card, allow it power
too (if it's got one of those additional power hungry, feed me,
connectors on it).
 

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