new system bootup woes


A

Adam

Paul said:
Manual Early_BIOS Feature Serial?
SABERTOOTH 990FX E6674 2011.06.07
C8xxxxxxxxxx = 2012/09
SABERTOOTH 990FX R2.0 E7335 2012.06.25 DirectKey
SABERTOOTH 990FX/GEN3 R2.0 E8041 2012.12.10 DirectKey

Should the manufacture date on the first generation of board,
occur after the R2.0 is released ? It sounds like somehow
the motherboard was given a newer serial number. If
the board was actually manufactured in 2011, the battery would be
flat now.
There are slight differences in feature between the versions.
For example, my version still had FireWire/1394,
which was removed from R2.

Maybe they keep both versions available briefly to give customers a choice?
Also, to make sure major problems do not surface (in the field) with the
newer version?
 
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D

Dustin

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno <DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org>
Wed, 24 Dec 2014 00:15:50 GMT in
alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, wrote the following message:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2014 20:33:29 +0000, Dustin wrote:

snip


Ceramic caps? From just higher than 12 volts. No way. Even the
ELs
are rated at 16 or 20 volts in those circuits. And those would
take way higher than that to blow them.
I've seen them pop at around 24 volts or so. I've seen power supplies in
the field providing that or more to the twelve volt rail... Cheap. low
end junk. Think, best tec.
 
M

mike

You might.

ONE OHM IS ONE OHM IS ONE OHM. You ****ing idiot.

So YES, the SAME current through MY 20 W capable resistor will roast the
piss out of your 1/16 W item.

Can you really be that thick? What?... dyslexic thought pattern?
Why do you get so many thing so ass backwards?
Second notice! Do the math. I used one ohm so you wouldn't have
to learn long division.

I'm pretty sure my resistor, for as long as it lasts, will dissipate
the same power as yours...spoiler alert: 144 Watts.
So, you grab your 20W resistor really tight when you do the experiment.

You continue your long history of finding (or manufacturing)
something to
nitpick/denigrate/bitch
about and thrash the messenger...while you fail to comprehend what
actually matters.

When you're drowning in your own effluent, it's a good idea to quit
insulting the guy holding the life preserver.
 
A

Adam

Paul said:
Manual Early_BIOS Feature Serial?
SABERTOOTH 990FX E6674 2011.06.07
C8xxxxxxxxxx = 2012/09
SABERTOOTH 990FX R2.0 E7335 2012.06.25 DirectKey
SABERTOOTH 990FX/GEN3 R2.0 E8041 2012.12.10 DirectKey

Should the manufacture date on the first generation of board,
occur after the R2.0 is released ? It sounds like somehow
the motherboard was given a newer serial number. If
the board was actually manufactured in 2011, the battery would be
flat now.

I guess when you RMA, you'll find out if there is a problem.
This sounds like something Asus did.
I submitted RMA request yesterday (Dec 26) via
http://www.service.asus.com/#!rma-request/cope
But, still have not heard a peep from them.
 
A

Adam

Paul said:
Manual Early_BIOS Feature Serial?
SABERTOOTH 990FX E6674 2011.06.07
C8xxxxxxxxxx = 2012/09
SABERTOOTH 990FX R2.0 E7335 2012.06.25 DirectKey
SABERTOOTH 990FX/GEN3 R2.0 E8041 2012.12.10 DirectKey
Well, the new mobo has arrived...
http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/SocketAM3+/SABERTOOTH_990FX_R2.0/E8042_SABERTOOTH_990FX_R2.pdf

The CMOS battery measures +3V (although not when installed in mobo).
I had to remove and place on Antec case to measure +3V.

Should I measure the green/purple of the 24-pin EATXPWR before
or after CPU/RAM installation (on cardboard of course)?
 
P

Paul

Adam said:
Well, the new mobo has arrived...
http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/SocketAM3+/SABERTOOTH_990FX_R2.0/E8042_SABERTOOTH_990FX_R2.pdf

The CMOS battery measures +3V (although not when installed in mobo).
I had to remove and place on Antec case to measure +3V.

Should I measure the green/purple of the 24-pin EATXPWR before
or after CPU/RAM installation (on cardboard of course)?
You can "skip lots of checks" if you want.

I certainly don't take baby steps with every
build I do. Some of my baby step runs, are out
of curiosity. That's why I've tested the "no components
in motherboard, yes, it will turn on the PSU" test case.
Just to prove that indeed, there is no dependence on
installed components. But I don't insist on doing
that test for every motherboard I buy.

If you're going to do that test, I recommend adding
a disk drive or two, to the PSU, to add some
additional loading.

*******

For my last build, I put motherboard, CPU, heatsink/fan,
RAM, and video card into system, connected keyboard and
mouse, plugged in the two power cables, and did the whole
thing in one test (look for BIOS screen). Being prepared
to back out and pull stuff out of the motherboard if necessary.
If testing a video card on cardboard, you have to be particularly
careful to not pull it out of the slot. The heel clip on the card
helps a bit, but still you have to be careful. You stress
relieve the cable, so it's not tugging on the card.

Cardboard testing on the kitchen table is not recommended
if there are kids around... Because somebody is likely
to bump the video card and cause something to fall over.

If you test without a video card, the setup is more stable
mechanically, but then it'll beep at you. Getting some level
of beeping, is a good positive sign, because it takes BIOS code
execution, to make it beep. Systems with build-in video offer
the advantage of supporting "safe cardboard testing", but
your gamer level motherboard won't have build-in video.
Boards with lots of PCI Express lanes, they don't generally
give you a chipset video as well. There are clearly defined
"market segments" that prevent that sort of overlap. My newest
system is like that, lots of PCI Express lanes, and no
motherboard video. So I have to install a card to see the
screen.

Paul
 
P

Paul

Adam said:
Uh-oh, when removing the heatsink, the CPU was
pulled right out of the socket with it. That thermal tape is strong.
What to do?
It shouldn't be thermal tape. It's probably phase change material.
Solid at room temperature. Viscous at higher temperature.

On a running system, the recommended sequence would be:

1) Prime95 or CPUBurn for 10 minutes.
2) Shut down and immediately start work on disassembly.
(While the metals are still warm).
3) Undo the clamp. Rotate the heatsink assembly slightly,
while attempting to work loose the heatsink by lifting.

That's to try to introduce some air into the gap, so
the thing will come apart.

Now, obviously, that procedure only works for a subset
of all possible conditions. If the system never powered
up yet, maybe the phase change material hasn't even had
a chance to turn into cement :)

It's pretty difficult to apply heat safely, after
the fact. So warming it now wouldn't be quite as easy.
Yes, you can get things like heat guns or an electric
hair dryer. But you don't really know what peak temperature
that will give, or where you'll be generating that temperature.
You could melt part of the plastic fan, or exceed the safe
temperature of the organic CPU packaging (the packaging
actually limits the CPU temperature, and not the
silicon die itself). So if you're going to heat the
thing up, if you think that'll help, the source of
heat can't be too strong or focused to burn or
melt something.

I've had to remove phase change here, and it's a bitch
to scrape off. It doesn't clean up quite as well with
isopropyl, and may need some other chemicals. The Arctic
Clean solvent has orange oil in it (something like
mono-terpene limonene), which might be in the right
ballpark for the job.

If I found an aftermarket product with phase change
on it from the factory, and the odds were good I'd
need to disassemble it a couple times over lifetime,
I'd probably scrape it off when new. And replace
it with something a bit easier to work with.

It doesn't seem to hurt the ZIF sockets too mucn,
to lift out a CPU with the thing locked. That's if you
do it just the one time. If you do it over and
over again, eventually you'll tear the socket apart.
While in the past, there have been snapped off pins, that
would only happen now if you were unlucky, and lifted
at a bit of an angle, instead of straight up. If
you pull it out, and only a couple of pins remain
holding, and you pull on an angle, it could
snap one.

Paul
 
A

Adam

Paul said:
It shouldn't be thermal tape. It's probably phase change material.
Solid at room temperature. Viscous at higher temperature.

On a running system, the recommended sequence would be:

1) Prime95 or CPUBurn for 10 minutes.
2) Shut down and immediately start work on disassembly.
(While the metals are still warm).
3) Undo the clamp. Rotate the heatsink assembly slightly,
while attempting to work loose the heatsink by lifting.

That's to try to introduce some air into the gap, so
the thing will come apart.

Now, obviously, that procedure only works for a subset
of all possible conditions. If the system never powered
up yet, maybe the phase change material hasn't even had
a chance to turn into cement :)

It's pretty difficult to apply heat safely, after
the fact. So warming it now wouldn't be quite as easy.
Yes, you can get things like heat guns or an electric
hair dryer. But you don't really know what peak temperature
that will give, or where you'll be generating that temperature.
You could melt part of the plastic fan, or exceed the safe
temperature of the organic CPU packaging (the packaging
actually limits the CPU temperature, and not the
silicon die itself). So if you're going to heat the
thing up, if you think that'll help, the source of
heat can't be too strong or focused to burn or
melt something.

I've had to remove phase change here, and it's a bitch
to scrape off. It doesn't clean up quite as well with
isopropyl, and may need some other chemicals. The Arctic
Clean solvent has orange oil in it (something like
mono-terpene limonene), which might be in the right
ballpark for the job.

If I found an aftermarket product with phase change
on it from the factory, and the odds were good I'd
need to disassemble it a couple times over lifetime,
I'd probably scrape it off when new. And replace
it with something a bit easier to work with.

It doesn't seem to hurt the ZIF sockets too mucn,
to lift out a CPU with the thing locked. That's if you
do it just the one time. If you do it over and
over again, eventually you'll tear the socket apart.
While in the past, there have been snapped off pins, that
would only happen now if you were unlucky, and lifted
at a bit of an angle, instead of straight up. If
you pull it out, and only a couple of pins remain
holding, and you pull on an angle, it could
snap one.

Paul
Luckily, all the pins still look perfect (straight and intact). Whew!

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/301098-28-stuck-heat-sink-remove
With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with
isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes.
Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and
heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then,
with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink,
which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up.
The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with
lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with
lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to
avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now.

BTW, I saw how that phase change material oozed out the sides
just a tiny bit. So, will look for that with the Arctic Silver 5.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Adam said:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/301098-28-stuck-heat-sink-remove
With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with
isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes.
Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and
heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then,
with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink,
which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up.
The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with
lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with
lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to
avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now.
I just use the same isopropyl alcohol to clean the heatsink and cpu. No
real drying time.
 
P

Paul

Jonathan said:
I just use the same isopropyl alcohol to clean the heatsink and cpu. No
real drying time.
This isopropyl business, isn't because it's the perfect solvent.
It's because if you get the isopropyl on any electronics, it
won't hurt anything. The isopropyl is actually a piss poor
solvent for this use, but it's commonly available and won't
hurt stuff.

There are people who visit the hardware groups, who use
gasoline, and I can't imagine a worse choice. In terms
of safety issues.

*******

Using the available MSDS sheets for ArctiClean cleaner kit for computers...

(First solvent bottle, thermal material remover)
D-Limonene <--- orange oil
Methyl Esters of Soybean Oil
Non-Ionic Surfactant <--- soap

(Second solvent bottle, used as a surface purifier)
Dipropylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether <--- no idea, but "miscible in everything"

The difference there, is the Limonene is more suited
to non-polar pastes than isopropyl would be. As you would
expect with products like that, you use one of the solvents
at a much higher rate than the other one, but they give you
equal sized bottles.

Paul
 
A

Adam

Paul said:
This isopropyl business, isn't because it's the perfect solvent.
It's because if you get the isopropyl on any electronics, it
won't hurt anything. The isopropyl is actually a piss poor
solvent for this use, but it's commonly available and won't
hurt stuff.

There are people who visit the hardware groups, who use
gasoline, and I can't imagine a worse choice. In terms
of safety issues.
"gasoline" ?!?!? Even the fumes (not to mention flammability) are not safe.

I just used whatever I had around that made sense.

*******

Using the available MSDS sheets for ArctiClean cleaner kit for
computers...

(First solvent bottle, thermal material remover)
D-Limonene <--- orange oil
Methyl Esters of Soybean Oil
Non-Ionic Surfactant <--- soap

(Second solvent bottle, used as a surface purifier)
Dipropylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether <--- no idea, but "miscible in
everything"

The difference there, is the Limonene is more suited
to non-polar pastes than isopropyl would be. As you would
expect with products like that, you use one of the solvents
at a much higher rate than the other one, but they give you
equal sized bottles.

Paul
The fans spin!!! :)

purple +5.166V
green +4.321V (short PWR-GND with screwdriver) => +0.12V

That was with CPU and RAM (no video card) on cardboard.

Will install in Antec case and then install video card.

Thanks to ALL for your help.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Paul said:
This isopropyl business, isn't because it's the perfect solvent.
It's because if you get the isopropyl on any electronics, it
won't hurt anything. The isopropyl is actually a piss poor
solvent for this use, but it's commonly available and won't
hurt stuff.
I would not say piss poor. It works, it degreases, it does no harm to
the PCB or components...and it wont kill you if you do not choose to
drink it. This is in contrast to the tetrafluoro chloride that was used
to clean up boards after wave-soldering.
There are people who visit the hardware groups, who use
gasoline, and I can't imagine a worse choice. In terms
of safety issues.

Make sure they are smoking when they do it ;-)
 
P

Paul

Adam said:
The fans spin!!! :)

purple +5.166V
green +4.321V (short PWR-GND with screwdriver) => +0.12V

That was with CPU and RAM (no video card) on cardboard.

Will install in Antec case and then install video card.

Thanks to ALL for your help.
See, it's magic :)

Now, on with the testing.

Paul
 
A

Adam

Cybe R. Wizard said:
Good to hear!
Thanks, I was surprised that the pins were still okay.

Actually, I was shocked to find the CPU stuck to the heatsink.
Good thing I didn't put the heatsink down. :)
 
P

Paul

Adam said:
Amazing magic is right.

Any good burn-in testing ideas? I read something about 200 hrs?
Burn in, is for weeding out infant mortality.

You want a stability test that functions as an
acceptance test. To determine whether all
the gear functions well together.

Memtest86+ from memtest.org, is a good test for
stuck-at faults on RAM. Those are bad RAM locations,
that won't store data properly, and always return the
same stuck bit value. I've had a DIMM, where an entire
chip died, and it was pretty comical to see a stream of
errors printed on the memtest screen.

The other one is Prime95 (torture test only), from
mersenne.org/freesoft. Versions available for Linux
and Windows. The OS portion of memory cannot be tested.
The stability aspect of this, is the generation of as
much electrical noise as possible, and the search for
transient errors as a result. Prime95 is multi-threaded,
and you can have a thread per core. You can manually
assign an amount of RAM for the threads as well. And
using Linux "top", you can check how much is being used.

Any where from four to eight hours of that, with none of
the test threads stopping on an error, is sufficient.
After that, it's "on with the show".

Sometimes, I add in a video game demo loop, while
Prime95 is running. But that seemed to be more
important during the AGP slot age of video cards.
I think the only 3D game I have here for Linux, is
the Linux port of Quake 3 Arena, that uses the map files
off the Quake CD. And Quake is one of the most light-weight
resource users, in terms of 3D. It's very economical,
and makes even low end video cards look heroic. Setting
up something like that would be optional, and likely a lot
of work for little benefit. That's always been a weakness
of my hardware testing, is I've never really been able
to give other people a simple recipe for video testing.
Sometimes, I end up fiddling with that stuff for a week
here, before giving up (on the notion of keeping it simple).

Paul
 
A

Adam

Paul said:
Burn in, is for weeding out infant mortality.

You want a stability test that functions as an
acceptance test. To determine whether all
the gear functions well together.

Memtest86+ from memtest.org, is a good test for
stuck-at faults on RAM. Those are bad RAM locations,
that won't store data properly, and always return the
same stuck bit value. I've had a DIMM, where an entire
chip died, and it was pretty comical to see a stream of
errors printed on the memtest screen.
Thanks (Guru Paul) !!

Oh yeah, I remember seeing Memtest86+ on the GRUB boot menu.
Will definitely run Memtest86+.

The other one is Prime95 (torture test only), from
mersenne.org/freesoft. Versions available for Linux
and Windows. The OS portion of memory cannot be tested.
The stability aspect of this, is the generation of as
much electrical noise as possible, and the search for
transient errors as a result. Prime95 is multi-threaded,
and you can have a thread per core. You can manually
assign an amount of RAM for the threads as well. And
using Linux "top", you can check how much is being used.

Any where from four to eight hours of that, with none of
the test threads stopping on an error, is sufficient.
After that, it's "on with the show".
Prime95 is new to me. Will have to try it out.

Sometimes, I add in a video game demo loop, while
Prime95 is running. But that seemed to be more
important during the AGP slot age of video cards.
I think the only 3D game I have here for Linux, is
the Linux port of Quake 3 Arena, that uses the map files
off the Quake CD. And Quake is one of the most light-weight
resource users, in terms of 3D. It's very economical,
and makes even low end video cards look heroic. Setting
up something like that would be optional, and likely a lot
of work for little benefit. That's always been a weakness
of my hardware testing, is I've never really been able
to give other people a simple recipe for video testing.
Sometimes, I end up fiddling with that stuff for a week
here, before giving up (on the notion of keeping it simple).

Paul
I don't do much gaming so not sure about
the video game demo loop (in parallel with Prime95) yet.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Cybe said:
Thanks, I was surprised that the pins were still okay.

Actually, I was shocked to find the CPU stuck to the heatsink.
Good thing I didn't put the heatsink down. :)
I recently had the same problem (CPU held the heat sink) and got that
bent pin because of it. New PC helped a lot! ;-]
Something to be said for the newer packages by Intel with "bumps" not
pins. No more anguished moan when a bent pin becomes a missing pin on a
not-too-cheap CPU.
 
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P

Paul

Jonathan said:
Cybe said:
message On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 14:10:32 -0800

Luckily, all the pins still look perfect (straight and intact).
Whew!

Good to hear!


Thanks, I was surprised that the pins were still okay.

Actually, I was shocked to find the CPU stuck to the heatsink.
Good thing I didn't put the heatsink down. :)
I recently had the same problem (CPU held the heat sink) and got that
bent pin because of it. New PC helped a lot! ;-]
Something to be said for the newer packages by Intel with "bumps" not
pins. No more anguished moan when a bent pin becomes a missing pin on a
not-too-cheap CPU.
Both schemes have their pluses and minuses.

For the pin and ZIF socket case, you can use a ball point pen
refill (the old kind with the metal tube), and slide that over
the pin to use as a lever, to straighten it out. You don't
need to use needle nose pliers to fix one. If a pin gets bent
over to a 90 degree angle, chances are it's toast when
straightened up.

The ZIF sockets have pretty good properties. I've not heard of
electrical issues with them. They can withstand the odd "pull-out"
accident. They can be completely destroyed if you put your
muscles into it (the top will pop off).

The Land Grid Array concept, the socket is the weak link.
When I bought my last motherboard from a local retailer,
I couldn't leave the store with the purchase, until we
went over to their support desk. And had a "socket check"
before leaving the store. That's a visual inspection for
damage to the socket, so later you cannot bring the
motherboard back and complain the product shipped with
a damaged socket. But that does indeed happen - products
do leave the factory with crushed spring contacts in
the socket. The evidence suggests the motherboard got
damaged at the factory, just before being put into the box.

LGA sockets vary in quality. There was an incident recorded on
Anandtech, where socket springs seemed to be making poor
contact, which was detected later on when overclocking and
the other contacts would overheat. I've never heard of
a ZIF socket quality problem, so perhaps they're a bit
easier to make. The springs in an LGA are pretty brittle.
The spring in the socket "bites" into the land pad on
the other side. You can see a mark on the CPU, once it's
been inserted into the socket. I don't know how many
cycles such a scheme could take. I haven't been pulling
CPUs out of LGA motherboards here all that often,
to discover what the limit might be.

Maybe the LGA scheme can be built to higher contact
counts, than a ZIF can. The very largest LGA has
such a high contact force (due to the number of
springs times the force per spring), that it uses
two levers to close the lid. Whereas the same degree
of force isn't as evident when closing a ZIF lever.

If you had a motherboard with a ZIF socket on it,
it wouldn't need a "socket check" just after you
bought it at the computer store. It takes deliberate
tampering to mess one up.

Paul
 

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