KB835732 breaks S3 standby timer

[Andrew Aronoff]

Installation of MS04-011 (KB 835732) broke the S3 Standby
(suspend-to-RAM) timer on my system running W2K SP4. After
installation of the hotfix, the timer under Control Panel -> Power
Options -> Power Schemes (tab), "System standby:" would work if set to
5 minutes or less. The timer failed if set to 10 minutes or longer.
The timer for "Turn off monitor:" continued to work normally; that for
"Turn off hard disks:" was erratic. The system would still go into
standby via Start, Shut Down..., Stand by.

Event Viewer, as usual for power management (PM), showed nothing. I'm
unaware of any tool (resource kit or third party) to troubleshoot W2K
PM.

Uninstallation of the hot fix restored full standby timer
functionality. Reinstallation of the hotfix broke the timer again.

Since all hardware and software on my system is otherwise working
normally, I fully expect this problem to be observed elsewhere.

FWIW, I'm using an MSI 845E Max-L motherboard with AMI BIOS updated to
the latest OEM version (5.9). Noteworthy for PM, an Adaptec 29160N
SCSI controller is present.

I hope MS will fix this bug ASAP and, more importantly, test PM
functionality before releasing future omnibus security hotfixes.

MS please note: an omnibus hotfix is only as strong as its weakest
DLL. As more bugs are discovered, more people will be forced to
uninstall, thus exposing their systems to _all_ the security flaws
that the hotfix was designed to thwart. IOW, you'd do your customers a
service by performing FMEA before releasing hotfix bundles and break
up the bundles into components with lower failure risk. Don't even
THINK about installing hotfixes automatically until your teams are
confident that the hotfixes don't break existing functionality. IMHO,
your hotfix production process is broken and the software can't be
made reliable until the process is virtually foolproof. If you think
that's impossible, then *that's the problem*.

regards, Andy
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[Peter]

I saw something similar after installing KB835732,
KB828741, and KB837001. The hibernate timer (Power Options
-> Power Schemes (tab), "System hibernates:") failed to
work. Manually invoked hibernate still worked.
Uninstalling the patches corrected the problem.

Unfortunately, I didn't install each patch individually and
test in between (I guess that MS didn't either).


my email: windows_update (at) tadom (dot) us

 

[Andrew Aronoff]

Hi, Peter.

Thanks for your input.

Unfortunately, I didn't install each patch individually and
test in between

IMHO, you could find out easily enough by reinstalling KB828741 &
KB83700, both of which I left installed, so far without ill effect.
(You probably also want to install Q837009 for Outlook Express.)

I guess that MS didn't either.

PM is an orphan in Windowdom. It incites all kind of green stickers,
but little testing for compliance. (Don't ask me about Adaptec's SCSI
drivers. Grrr.) I know of very few people that use S3 standby,
principally because to enable it, the BIOS must first be configured,
which is something most people simply do not know how to do. OTOH, S3
standby is *the* reason I made my last motherboard upgrade.

BTW, why are you using hibernation instead of S3 standby?

regards, Andy

I saw something similar after installing KB835732,
KB828741, and KB837001. The hibernate timer (Power Options
-> Power Schemes (tab), "System hibernates:") failed to
work. Manually invoked hibernate still worked.
Uninstalling the patches corrected the problem.

Unfortunately, I didn't install each patch individually and
test in between (I guess that MS didn't either).

my email: windows_update (at) tadom (dot) us

--
**********

Please send e-mail to: usenet (dot) post (at) aaronoff (dot) com

**********

 

[Peter]

I know of very few people that use S3 standby,
principally because to enable it, the BIOS must first be configured,
which is something most people simply do not know how to do. OTOH, S3
standby is *the* reason I made my last motherboard upgrade.

BTW, why are you using hibernation instead of S3 standby?

Standby didn't seem to do anything on my machine -- maybe
because I didn't know to/how to configure the BIOS.
FWIW I have Dell Dimension XPS T700r.

-Peter

 

[Andrew Aronoff]

Hi, Peter.

Standby didn't seem to do anything on my machine

Probably because it wasn't configured in the BIOS. Windows will ask
the BIOS to put the PC on standby. If the BIOS hasn't been configured,
it simply ignores the request.

There are two different modes of standby typically available, S1 and
S3.

S1 (standard) standby is less advantageous, IMHO, because it leaves
the fans running. Hibernation, at least, shuts down all the noise
sources, but it also disables Scheduled Tasks. IOW, when the PC
hibernates, it's completely shut down. It just starts up a bit faster
and puts the O/S back to the same operating point.

S3 standby has significant advantages: all the noise sources are
stopped and the PC restarts quickly, much quicker than with
hibernation. The only thing that's left powered is the RAM and, at a
diminished level, the processor. Since the processor and RAM stay
powered on, scheduled programs can still run. The disadvantage of S3
is that power is still consumed and, if it's lost (a portable's
batteries die, for example), any unsaved data in programs that were
open when the standby started will be lost. If a user is careful to
hit the save button often when working, the issue of data loss should
be minimal. The exact power consumed by S3 standby is variable. You'd
need to test it out to see if it meets your needs.

I know of no PC that's delivered with S3 standby enabled. I don't
really know why. Since it _must_ be configured in the BIOS, most
people don't even know it exists. If it _was_ typically configured,
its proper function could not be ignored by Microsoft.

If you look in your PC's owners manual, you may see an explanation of
the suspend modes that are available in the BIOS. Look for "S3" or
"STR" or "Suspend To RAM". If your PC has it, you'll probably have an
option to set a "password" for wake-up. In fact, it's not really a
password at all, but a handy keyboard shortcut. If I want the PC to
resume, I can just hit a few letters on the keyboard. If your PC's so
equipped, you might want to give S3 a try.

regards, Andy
--
**********

Please send e-mail to: usenet (dot) post (at) aaronoff (dot) com

**********

 

[henry l]

Same problem for me. System does not go into Standby mode
after the timeout since the recent critical patches
(although I didn't bother uninstalling them individually
to test which patch exactly). Monitor does turn off after
the timeout. Going to Standby from the Start button works.
Got a Asus A7N8X Deluxe v2 motherboard with bios 1004.

 

[Andrew Aronoff]

Thanks for confirming. I'm not surprised you see this problem on your
system, too.

regards, Andy

Same problem for me. System does not go into Standby mode
after the timeout since the recent critical patches
(although I didn't bother uninstalling them individually
to test which patch exactly). Monitor does turn off after
the timeout. Going to Standby from the Start button works.
Got a Asus A7N8X Deluxe v2 motherboard with bios 1004.

--
**********

Please send e-mail to: usenet (dot) post (at) aaronoff (dot) com

**********

 

[Rock]

I would like to clarify a couple of Andrew's comments below: (probably
more than you ever wanted to know about Power Management)

Since ACPI, the BIOS simply tells Microsoft what methods to run or can
be run to support power management. ACPI was Microsoft's attempt to
take over power management so it was uniform for all PCs and basically
didn't permit one vendor's BIOS to work better than another for
purposes of battery life benchmarks. (of course their reasoning was
that it gave users a better experience....)

Now with ACPI, the BIOS should not be in control. If it's trying to
do power management, and ACPI drivers are trying to do it too, it's
likely you will see bizzare problems. Consider when BIOS turns off a
device and a driver goes out to wait for a particular bit of a
register to be set, and that chip's turned off. What will the driver
do? Having written drivers, I'll tell you we don't set timeouts on
every Windows function call or every register bit tested. So it can
hang.

Recommendation: if you're using Windows power management, disable
BIOS power management in your hardware setup.

I have seen BIOSes that have the ability to turn-off ACPI. Basically,
there's a bunch of tables that the BIOS puts in a certain spot in
memory so Microsoft ACPI drivers can find the info. (Typically
hardware vendor ACPI drivers don't use this info). There are BIOSes
that can disable this feature, so if you want to run Windows power
management, you have to enable this ACPI. (This iis *not* the same as
PnP aware). In the Device manager (see below) you can tell if you're
running ACPI, there will be a system device that's functioning
normally (I hope).


If you are hibernating, and resuming, you are very fortunate indeed.
Power Management is absolutely the last thing that goes into a driver
development, because the developers are trying to make the device
work when it's powered on, not figure out how to turn it of and
restore its state when it comes back up. I have seen drivers that
have had to be completely restructured to add PM, and management (of
course) decided not to invest the money to do it. Since it's
typically added as an afterthout, you'll find controls scattered
around. so here's where to look

1. You found Control Panel/Power Options
2. Check device manager for each device: rt-click My Computer,
select properties, click the hardware tab, push the device manager
button. Then open each device and look around for power management
options. I have powr management options on my net card and monitor
devices.
3. Check your network cards. Rt-click My Network Places select
properties, rt-click the entries that have a device name on the
right-hand side, and look at the device configuration (button near the
top). In my case I have the same power management options there that
appear in DeviceManager.
4. Check the setup configuration software for installed devices. I
saw power management options in a Dlink wireless LAN card's special
control panel.

Regarding what's left-on in hibernate: that's up to the PC designer.
Hibernate is S4 . The system's state is saved to a file, and
everything's typically turned off except for the things that can bring
the PC out of hibernation: typically "Wake-On-Lan" special packets.
You don't move the mouse to come out of hibernation. This is the
thing that's last done in an ACPI driver, so if it's working for you,
you are lucky. And you buy good hardware. Anyway, it's up to the
hardware vendor to write the ACPI hibernate stuff to permit that
driver to save the state on ACPI power-down messages, and reset the
device and put that state back in. Consider how hard it is to restore
a VPN after you've saved to file: the keys are gone, the sequences
that make the VPN have completely disappeared. So it usually just
doesn't work after a hibernate.

There can be2 versions of S4: turn off the power to the PCI bus (so
your LAN card can't wake the machine ever) or leave power to certain
devices on (like the PCI or Southbridge, PCI bus, PCMCIA copntroller,
etc.) Again, up to the discretion of the manufacturer.

S3 is deep sleep. HAving designed PCs, the only thing we could safely
turn-off was the CPU power. We could spin-down the hard drive, but we
couldn't turn it off (typically). The RAM is left on, and goes to
slow-refresh mode or for very good hardware, self-refresh mode.
Typically, all PLLs are left-on (they are the clocks inside the chips
and I have seen where they can consume 50% of the power dissipated by
a given chip).

S2 is typically not used. It's defined as a lowr-power S1.

S1 is standby. In this state, different devices may enter
power-saving mode. And maybe not. I have seen CPU clocks slowed, and
hard drives spun down. The rules are different and depend on your
hardware supplier. Microsoft simply issues the ACPI message, then the
video driver may determine to blank your CRT. But maybe not. because
that'sure to generate support calls (Why did my screen suddenly go
blank when I was running that presentation!!!????!!!??) I think
Microsoft's driver sends the ATAPI command to spin-down the drive, but
you might not be using Microsoft's driver.

There are utilities out there that can set device timers to enter the
standby state after receiving the ACPI message. Phoenix had a good
one.

So if you want to save more power in standby, you'll have to get one
of those utilities. There used to be a way to set power profiles in
Windows, but I just looked and it seems it's gone (that is, you could
set the timers and stuff.)

HTH

Rock

 

[Andrew Aronoff]

Hi, Rock.

FOA, thanks very much for your post.

< probably more than you ever wanted to know about Power Management>

I'd like to know a lot more than I do, so thanks again.

< if you're using Windows power management, disable BIOS power
management in your hardware setup. >

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Here's the way my AMI BIOS is
configured for working S3 standby in W98SE, W2K and WXP:

IPCA Aware O/S Yes
ACPI Standby State S3/STR
Re-Call VGA BIOS at S3 Resuming Disabled
Power Management/APM Enabled <-- could be DISABLED
Power Button Function On/Off
Restore on AC/Power Loss Last State

Set Monitor Events ... [I'll skip this screen]
Set Wake Up Events ...

Resume On Ring Disabled
Resume On PME# Disabled
Resume On RTC Alarm Disabled
RTC Alarm Date <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
RTC Alarm Hour <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
RTC Alarm Minute <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
RTC Alarm Second <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
USB Device Wakeup From S3 Disabled
Keyboard Wakeup From S3 Specific Key <-- optional
Specific Key for Wakeup Password
Mouse Wakeup From S3 Left-button <-- optional

Which settings, if any, would you advise to change? I'll change 'em
and see what happens. My hunch is that everything set above is
necessary with this motherboard and BIOS except the seven commented
lines. Of course, *one* of the lines marked "optional" must be enabled
for resume from S3 to be possible.

< Power Management is absolutely the last thing that goes into a
driver development >

If it makes it in at all. Just ask Adaptec. They'll tell you
everything they know about PM and it won't take long. ;-)

< Check device manager for each device >

I had indeed found PM controls for my mouse, modem and NIC. I believe
that any checkboxes to "Allow the computer to turn off this device to
save power" are a waste of energy ;-) , since these devices consume
very little power. However, checking "Allow this device to bring the
computer out of standby" on my NIC proved very helpful for the PC that
acts as a server. It can remain in S3 standby until a client on the
LAN calls for it.

< Consider how hard it is to restore a VPN after you've saved to file
True, but that's the nature of TCP/IP connections. What counts for the
user in this case isn't reestablishing the connection but a graceful
recovery -- no data loss and a clear error message.

< HTH >

Sure did.

regards, Andy

I would like to clarify a couple of Andrew's comments below: (probably
more than you ever wanted to know about Power Management)

Since ACPI, the BIOS simply tells Microsoft what methods to run or can
be run to support power management. ACPI was Microsoft's attempt to
take over power management so it was uniform for all PCs and basically
didn't permit one vendor's BIOS to work better than another for
purposes of battery life benchmarks. (of course their reasoning was
that it gave users a better experience....)

Now with ACPI, the BIOS should not be in control. If it's trying to
do power management, and ACPI drivers are trying to do it too, it's
likely you will see bizzare problems. Consider when BIOS turns off a
device and a driver goes out to wait for a particular bit of a
register to be set, and that chip's turned off. What will the driver
do? Having written drivers, I'll tell you we don't set timeouts on
every Windows function call or every register bit tested. So it can
hang.

Recommendation: if you're using Windows power management, disable
BIOS power management in your hardware setup.

I have seen BIOSes that have the ability to turn-off ACPI. Basically,
there's a bunch of tables that the BIOS puts in a certain spot in
memory so Microsoft ACPI drivers can find the info. (Typically
hardware vendor ACPI drivers don't use this info). There are BIOSes
that can disable this feature, so if you want to run Windows power
management, you have to enable this ACPI. (This iis *not* the same as
PnP aware). In the Device manager (see below) you can tell if you're
running ACPI, there will be a system device that's functioning
normally (I hope).


If you are hibernating, and resuming, you are very fortunate indeed.
Power Management is absolutely the last thing that goes into a driver
development, because the developers are trying to make the device
work when it's powered on, not figure out how to turn it of and
restore its state when it comes back up. I have seen drivers that
have had to be completely restructured to add PM, and management (of
course) decided not to invest the money to do it. Since it's
typically added as an afterthout, you'll find controls scattered
around. so here's where to look

1. You found Control Panel/Power Options
2. Check device manager for each device: rt-click My Computer,
select properties, click the hardware tab, push the device manager
button. Then open each device and look around for power management
options. I have powr management options on my net card and monitor
devices.
3. Check your network cards. Rt-click My Network Places select
properties, rt-click the entries that have a device name on the
right-hand side, and look at the device configuration (button near the
top). In my case I have the same power management options there that
appear in DeviceManager.
4. Check the setup configuration software for installed devices. I
saw power management options in a Dlink wireless LAN card's special
control panel.

Regarding what's left-on in hibernate: that's up to the PC designer.
Hibernate is S4 . The system's state is saved to a file, and
everything's typically turned off except for the things that can bring
the PC out of hibernation: typically "Wake-On-Lan" special packets.
You don't move the mouse to come out of hibernation. This is the
thing that's last done in an ACPI driver, so if it's working for you,
you are lucky. And you buy good hardware. Anyway, it's up to the
hardware vendor to write the ACPI hibernate stuff to permit that
driver to save the state on ACPI power-down messages, and reset the
device and put that state back in. Consider how hard it is to restore
a VPN after you've saved to file: the keys are gone, the sequences
that make the VPN have completely disappeared. So it usually just
doesn't work after a hibernate.

There can be2 versions of S4: turn off the power to the PCI bus (so
your LAN card can't wake the machine ever) or leave power to certain
devices on (like the PCI or Southbridge, PCI bus, PCMCIA copntroller,
etc.) Again, up to the discretion of the manufacturer.

S3 is deep sleep. HAving designed PCs, the only thing we could safely
turn-off was the CPU power. We could spin-down the hard drive, but we
couldn't turn it off (typically). The RAM is left on, and goes to
slow-refresh mode or for very good hardware, self-refresh mode.
Typically, all PLLs are left-on (they are the clocks inside the chips
and I have seen where they can consume 50% of the power dissipated by
a given chip).

S2 is typically not used. It's defined as a lowr-power S1.

S1 is standby. In this state, different devices may enter
power-saving mode. And maybe not. I have seen CPU clocks slowed, and
hard drives spun down. The rules are different and depend on your
hardware supplier. Microsoft simply issues the ACPI message, then the
video driver may determine to blank your CRT. But maybe not. because
that'sure to generate support calls (Why did my screen suddenly go
blank when I was running that presentation!!!????!!!??) I think
Microsoft's driver sends the ATAPI command to spin-down the drive, but
you might not be using Microsoft's driver.

There are utilities out there that can set device timers to enter the
standby state after receiving the ACPI message. Phoenix had a good
one.

So if you want to save more power in standby, you'll have to get one
of those utilities. There used to be a way to set power profiles in
Windows, but I just looked and it seems it's gone (that is, you could
set the timers and stuff.)

HTH

Rock

--
**********

Please send e-mail to: usenet (dot) post (at) aaronoff (dot) com

**********

 

[Rock]

If you're running multi-boot environment on one PC, you'll have some
trouble with your settings.

1. Please disable APM for win2k, Winme, winXP. APM is a BIOS
interface where Windows drivers will look to send BIOS APM messages
for power control. ACPI is a WDM construct. This means:
a. WDM drivers must support ACPI power messaging to pass
WHQL. (USB, 1394, PCI bridges, etc)
b. SCSI, and NDIS drivers do not have to support ACPI
messaging to pass WHQL. Lately, most do support it, because there is
some confusion about NDIS support and NDIS power OIDs (object
identifiers). Most net drivers hook the WDM message and convert to
NDIS power control OIDs. This is a time-phased statement, early NDIS
drivers (Intel Pro/Wireless 2011 Lan PC Cards , for example) don't use
NDIS oids, but I believe they have defined their own proprietary OIDs.
Anyway, most late SCSI and NDIS drivers hook WDM ACPI messages.
I frankly don't know if Win2K eliminates support for APM or not, or
how well it does support APM if it is there. If you have APM enabled,
Win98's default will use APM and I think ignore ACPI. A 3rd party
driver may not, and try to use ACPI, so you might get bizarre
operation.

2. Please enable APM for Win98 and Win98SE, and disable ACPI. This
is a religious statement, and may offend many people in Redmond. They
worked very hard to make ACPI work, but frankly weren't supported by
the hardware community. So to avoid 3rd party hardware, problems, and
Windows driver interaction issues, you should disable ACPI for these
operating systems. Now, there should be some spin-down timers
available in your powr schemes tab under power options in the control
panel. Set that to the timeout you want. If you're using SCSI and
that item doesn't appear, please contact your SCSI driver
manufacturer. They probably have that fixed. (Based on your comment
about Adaptec, maybe not.)

3. Keyboard and mouse wakeup should work. We made sure it always
worked in our notebooks, but now most NBs come from China and who
knows how much quality testing they get.

Rock

Hi, Rock.

FOA, thanks very much for your post.

< probably more than you ever wanted to know about Power Management>

I'd like to know a lot more than I do, so thanks again.

< if you're using Windows power management, disable BIOS power
management in your hardware setup. >

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Here's the way my AMI BIOS is
configured for working S3 standby in W98SE, W2K and WXP:

IPCA Aware O/S Yes
ACPI Standby State S3/STR
Re-Call VGA BIOS at S3 Resuming Disabled
Power Management/APM Enabled <-- could be DISABLED
Power Button Function On/Off
Restore on AC/Power Loss Last State

Set Monitor Events ... [I'll skip this screen]
Set Wake Up Events ...

Resume On Ring Disabled
Resume On PME# Disabled
Resume On RTC Alarm Disabled
RTC Alarm Date <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
RTC Alarm Hour <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
RTC Alarm Minute <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
RTC Alarm Second <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
USB Device Wakeup From S3 Disabled
Keyboard Wakeup From S3 Specific Key <-- optional
Specific Key for Wakeup Password
Mouse Wakeup From S3 Left-button <-- optional

Which settings, if any, would you advise to change? I'll change 'em
and see what happens. My hunch is that everything set above is
necessary with this motherboard and BIOS except the seven commented
lines. Of course, *one* of the lines marked "optional" must be enabled
for resume from S3 to be possible.

< Power Management is absolutely the last thing that goes into a
driver development >

If it makes it in at all. Just ask Adaptec. They'll tell you
everything they know about PM and it won't take long. ;-)

< Check device manager for each device >

I had indeed found PM controls for my mouse, modem and NIC. I believe
that any checkboxes to "Allow the computer to turn off this device to
save power" are a waste of energy ;-) , since these devices consume
very little power. However, checking "Allow this device to bring the
computer out of standby" on my NIC proved very helpful for the PC that
acts as a server. It can remain in S3 standby until a client on the
LAN calls for it.

< Consider how hard it is to restore a VPN after you've saved to file
True, but that's the nature of TCP/IP connections. What counts for the
user in this case isn't reestablishing the connection but a graceful
recovery -- no data loss and a clear error message.

< HTH >

Sure did.

regards, Andy

I would like to clarify a couple of Andrew's comments below: (probably
more than you ever wanted to know about Power Management)

Since ACPI, the BIOS simply tells Microsoft what methods to run or can
be run to support power management. ACPI was Microsoft's attempt to
take over power management so it was uniform for all PCs and basically
didn't permit one vendor's BIOS to work better than another for
purposes of battery life benchmarks. (of course their reasoning was
that it gave users a better experience....)

Now with ACPI, the BIOS should not be in control. If it's trying to
do power management, and ACPI drivers are trying to do it too, it's
likely you will see bizzare problems. Consider when BIOS turns off a
device and a driver goes out to wait for a particular bit of a
register to be set, and that chip's turned off. What will the driver
do? Having written drivers, I'll tell you we don't set timeouts on
every Windows function call or every register bit tested. So it can
hang.

Recommendation: if you're using Windows power management, disable
BIOS power management in your hardware setup.

I have seen BIOSes that have the ability to turn-off ACPI. Basically,
there's a bunch of tables that the BIOS puts in a certain spot in
memory so Microsoft ACPI drivers can find the info. (Typically
hardware vendor ACPI drivers don't use this info). There are BIOSes
that can disable this feature, so if you want to run Windows power
management, you have to enable this ACPI. (This iis *not* the same as
PnP aware). In the Device manager (see below) you can tell if you're
running ACPI, there will be a system device that's functioning
normally (I hope).


If you are hibernating, and resuming, you are very fortunate indeed.
Power Management is absolutely the last thing that goes into a driver
development, because the developers are trying to make the device
work when it's powered on, not figure out how to turn it of and
restore its state when it comes back up. I have seen drivers that
have had to be completely restructured to add PM, and management (of
course) decided not to invest the money to do it. Since it's
typically added as an afterthout, you'll find controls scattered
around. so here's where to look

1. You found Control Panel/Power Options
2. Check device manager for each device: rt-click My Computer,
select properties, click the hardware tab, push the device manager
button. Then open each device and look around for power management
options. I have powr management options on my net card and monitor
devices.
3. Check your network cards. Rt-click My Network Places select
properties, rt-click the entries that have a device name on the
right-hand side, and look at the device configuration (button near the
top). In my case I have the same power management options there that
appear in DeviceManager.
4. Check the setup configuration software for installed devices. I
saw power management options in a Dlink wireless LAN card's special
control panel.

Regarding what's left-on in hibernate: that's up to the PC designer.
Hibernate is S4 . The system's state is saved to a file, and
everything's typically turned off except for the things that can bring
the PC out of hibernation: typically "Wake-On-Lan" special packets.
You don't move the mouse to come out of hibernation. This is the
thing that's last done in an ACPI driver, so if it's working for you,
you are lucky. And you buy good hardware. Anyway, it's up to the
hardware vendor to write the ACPI hibernate stuff to permit that
driver to save the state on ACPI power-down messages, and reset the
device and put that state back in. Consider how hard it is to restore
a VPN after you've saved to file: the keys are gone, the sequences
that make the VPN have completely disappeared. So it usually just
doesn't work after a hibernate.

There can be2 versions of S4: turn off the power to the PCI bus (so
your LAN card can't wake the machine ever) or leave power to certain
devices on (like the PCI or Southbridge, PCI bus, PCMCIA copntroller,
etc.) Again, up to the discretion of the manufacturer.

S3 is deep sleep. HAving designed PCs, the only thing we could safely
turn-off was the CPU power. We could spin-down the hard drive, but we
couldn't turn it off (typically). The RAM is left on, and goes to
slow-refresh mode or for very good hardware, self-refresh mode.
Typically, all PLLs are left-on (they are the clocks inside the chips
and I have seen where they can consume 50% of the power dissipated by
a given chip).

S2 is typically not used. It's defined as a lowr-power S1.

S1 is standby. In this state, different devices may enter
power-saving mode. And maybe not. I have seen CPU clocks slowed, and
hard drives spun down. The rules are different and depend on your
hardware supplier. Microsoft simply issues the ACPI message, then the
video driver may determine to blank your CRT. But maybe not. because
that'sure to generate support calls (Why did my screen suddenly go
blank when I was running that presentation!!!????!!!??) I think
Microsoft's driver sends the ATAPI command to spin-down the drive, but
you might not be using Microsoft's driver.

There are utilities out there that can set device timers to enter the
standby state after receiving the ACPI message. Phoenix had a good
one.

So if you want to save more power in standby, you'll have to get one
of those utilities. There used to be a way to set power profiles in
Windows, but I just looked and it seems it's gone (that is, you could
set the timers and stuff.)

HTH

Rock

 

[Andrew Aronoff]

Hi, Rock.

Thanks for your feedback.

If you're running multi-boot environment on one PC, you'll have some
trouble with your settings.

I am, but I (usually) don't. ;-) See below.

1. Please disable APM for win2k, Winme, winXP.

I'm not sure why I'd want to do this.

I have W98SE, NT4, W2K and WXP installed on separate partitions.
Excluding NT4, of course, ACPI works very well in all of them (when
not otherwise provoked by buggy hotfixes) with APM enabled. Sure, I
*could* disable APM, but *why*?

If you have APM enabled, Win98's default will use APM and I think
ignore ACPI.

Not here -- W98SE uses ACPI and ignores APM.

2. Please enable APM for Win98 and Win98SE, and disable ACPI.

In W98SE, ACPI appears to work correctly as long as I leave my Adaptec
29160N disabled in Device Manager. That's not a problem, since the
devices connected to the SCSI controller are not needed in that O/S.

regards, Andy

If you're running multi-boot environment on one PC, you'll have some
trouble with your settings.

1. Please disable APM for win2k, Winme, winXP. APM is a BIOS
interface where Windows drivers will look to send BIOS APM messages
for power control. ACPI is a WDM construct. This means:
a. WDM drivers must support ACPI power messaging to pass
WHQL. (USB, 1394, PCI bridges, etc)
b. SCSI, and NDIS drivers do not have to support ACPI
messaging to pass WHQL. Lately, most do support it, because there is
some confusion about NDIS support and NDIS power OIDs (object
identifiers). Most net drivers hook the WDM message and convert to
NDIS power control OIDs. This is a time-phased statement, early NDIS
drivers (Intel Pro/Wireless 2011 Lan PC Cards , for example) don't use
NDIS oids, but I believe they have defined their own proprietary OIDs.
Anyway, most late SCSI and NDIS drivers hook WDM ACPI messages.
I frankly don't know if Win2K eliminates support for APM or not, or
how well it does support APM if it is there. If you have APM enabled,
Win98's default will use APM and I think ignore ACPI. A 3rd party
driver may not, and try to use ACPI, so you might get bizarre
operation.

2. Please enable APM for Win98 and Win98SE, and disable ACPI. This
is a religious statement, and may offend many people in Redmond. They
worked very hard to make ACPI work, but frankly weren't supported by
the hardware community. So to avoid 3rd party hardware, problems, and
Windows driver interaction issues, you should disable ACPI for these
operating systems. Now, there should be some spin-down timers
available in your powr schemes tab under power options in the control
panel. Set that to the timeout you want. If you're using SCSI and
that item doesn't appear, please contact your SCSI driver
manufacturer. They probably have that fixed. (Based on your comment
about Adaptec, maybe not.)

3. Keyboard and mouse wakeup should work. We made sure it always
worked in our notebooks, but now most NBs come from China and who
knows how much quality testing they get.

Rock

Hi, Rock.

FOA, thanks very much for your post.

< probably more than you ever wanted to know about Power Management>

I'd like to know a lot more than I do, so thanks again.

< if you're using Windows power management, disable BIOS power
management in your hardware setup. >

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Here's the way my AMI BIOS is
configured for working S3 standby in W98SE, W2K and WXP:

IPCA Aware O/S Yes
ACPI Standby State S3/STR
Re-Call VGA BIOS at S3 Resuming Disabled
Power Management/APM Enabled <-- could be DISABLED
Power Button Function On/Off
Restore on AC/Power Loss Last State

Set Monitor Events ... [I'll skip this screen]
Set Wake Up Events ...

Resume On Ring Disabled
Resume On PME# Disabled
Resume On RTC Alarm Disabled
RTC Alarm Date <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
RTC Alarm Hour <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
RTC Alarm Minute <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
RTC Alarm Second <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
USB Device Wakeup From S3 Disabled
Keyboard Wakeup From S3 Specific Key <-- optional
Specific Key for Wakeup Password
Mouse Wakeup From S3 Left-button <-- optional

Which settings, if any, would you advise to change? I'll change 'em
and see what happens. My hunch is that everything set above is
necessary with this motherboard and BIOS except the seven commented
lines. Of course, *one* of the lines marked "optional" must be enabled
for resume from S3 to be possible.

< Power Management is absolutely the last thing that goes into a
driver development >

If it makes it in at all. Just ask Adaptec. They'll tell you
everything they know about PM and it won't take long. ;-)

< Check device manager for each device >

I had indeed found PM controls for my mouse, modem and NIC. I believe
that any checkboxes to "Allow the computer to turn off this device to
save power" are a waste of energy ;-) , since these devices consume
very little power. However, checking "Allow this device to bring the
computer out of standby" on my NIC proved very helpful for the PC that
acts as a server. It can remain in S3 standby until a client on the
LAN calls for it.

< Consider how hard it is to restore a VPN after you've saved to file
True, but that's the nature of TCP/IP connections. What counts for the
user in this case isn't reestablishing the connection but a graceful
recovery -- no data loss and a clear error message.

< HTH >

Sure did.

regards, Andy

[snipped]
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[Catherine]

I have experienced the same problem on my system running
W2K SP4, Asus P4B533VM motherboard, P4 1.6Ghz CPU, 256MB
RAM. I run the system 24/7, so the standby issue is
definitely irritating. I guess I'll just have to
uninstall KB 835732 until MS fixes the matter.

 

[Andrew Aronoff]

Thanks for confirming this problem.

regards, Andy

I have experienced the same problem on my system running
W2K SP4, Asus P4B533VM motherboard, P4 1.6Ghz CPU, 256MB
RAM. I run the system 24/7, so the standby issue is
definitely irritating. I guess I'll just have to
uninstall KB 835732 until MS fixes the matter.

[snipped]
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**********

Please send e-mail to: usenet (dot) post (at) aaronoff (dot) com

**********