1) I don't see what possible efficiency is gained by pasting the entire post
of someone or serial excerpting it at the top of your answer to them. If
it's any component of usenet or newsgroup etiquette, it's tantamount to
getting out of your car in the middle of a busy intersection to wave and bow
at someone--the text you're pasting at the top is already included by native
design in the OE nnttp setup at the bottom. Why stick it in the way at the
top?
Additionally, all anyone has to do is click on a message and they can hit
the up and down arrow and see what went before if scrolling is too much of a
chore.
"No, I didn't quote myself, that's the first time I said it. What's your
point?" My point was that I didn't write it, you did.
2) Anyway you slice it D. Currie, if someone can't boot to Windows as was
represented in the vague post, there is no one key solution. I've helped
in all kinds of these scenarios in this format, and I'm sure you have.
Although there is no firm rule for sure, a number of stop errors and a BSOD,
which MSFT is progressively phasing out for psychological impact and
replacing with small dialogue boxes with hyperlinks to "more information"
which are pure unadulterated hex you can scroll down and drool at, reference
a symptom of some kind of hardware error, but as you also know that's not
always the case. Sometimes yo can do a repair install.
Often, but there is no rule here, when someone is led to a Windows Advanced
Options choice, there is a software solution.
If someone poses that they can't boot to Windows and is screaming for help,
but is unwilling or unable to provide any more information than this poster,
and you want to help, you have to convey some way that one of the options
may well be that you do a repair install.
"who isn't very computer saavy." I would say this poster isn't in the "not
very computer savvy category, and not a complete novice. She and her buddy
knew enough emergency recovery to try to boot into safe mode (probably to
use system restore from there). So "computer savvy" attributes are
relative.
The bios setup takes a little getting used to particuarly since MSFT takes
the minimalist approach to using the keys to get out of a particular area or
even to change the boot order--they could explain it much better, but clear
English and Redmond Product managers, product teams and developers still
have a lot of bridges to cross before they meet. This is evident all over
Windows XP and its menus and dialogue boxes. This is evident right now in a
search that is far less efficient and more erratic than Outlook's new add-in
Lookout that will be incorporated into the search in conjunction with
Longhorn's Win FS file system that the evangelists are blogging about.
If you look at this KB which I included originally, it offers a fairly
logical and easy to follow set of steps to try to recover. It includes
hardware considerations to a degree. I think so and Microsoft thinks so
because they offered this KB. They didn't stick it in the MSDN library and
you don't have to be particuarly computer savvy to follow any of those KBs.
All you have to do is click a mouse. The poster already knew enough to
try to F8 to Safe Mode, so how the hell complex could it be to click and
read links like this one, and links I provided that screenshot them into the
bios setup.
Resources for troubleshooting startup problems in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;308041&Product=winxp
If you know a clearer way to tell someone that can't get into safe mode,
that they can try pushing a button on the computer and seeing if they can
tap into bios setup (with clear instructions linked) and then do a repair
install let me know. Let's say if Debbie doesn't do throw her box into the
car to dump into some repair place's lap, and tries this what is the down
side? If she can't follow the directions, she knows where she posted in the
first place and people will dive in to help.
3) I ain't got no undies in no knot. However, I have *no idea* why you and
johnf have yet to post any helpful solution rather than spend all the effort
criticizing my post as "complex." We don't know if it's too complex or not,
and if the lady can't follow it she can ask someone here or elsewhere what
to do. I just know a lot of people who can't boot to Windows and don't have
a hardware problem like a loose memory stick or cable that requires a laying
on of hands to their computer hardware, get their systems intact by trying
my instructions. The problem got complicated because while the poster could
have explained whether anything could be seen from that monitor, she didn't,
and 36 hours later it hasn't been a pressing priority.
4) I'm still waiting with bated breath to see the answer you would put that
would explain how to change the bios order and do a repair/upgrade install
into your chapter if you were asked to write the Troubleshooting chapter of
the Windows Resource kit.
5) I think repair install is a really viable option, and is much easier and
less traumatic than the scenario a lot of people end up with which is wiping
and loading, with no decent backup and losing a lot of data and settings. A
system restore doesn't guarantee you won't lose data, and as Michael Solomon
in his posts (and the related MSKBs and web sites on repair installs) are
always careful to point out neither does an upgrade install. It's software,
so nothing is guaranteed. But if it works, and it often does, it beats the
hell out of starting over and losing data. There has to be some way to
relate it. Maybe a little context between the links would help, but the
links do a nice job of explaining the steps, and I take care to include a
link with detailed screenshots of the actual steps.
6) If the problem doesn't involve hardware manipulation, you don't have a
lot of options period. There are specialized tools like NTFS Dos Bootdisk
and NTFS reader for dos here, that expand your options
http://www.ntfs.com/products.htm but the average person may find these a
little more difficult to find and daunting to use
I'm sure it's a daunting problem to a lot of people. I enjoy seeing
something work and the triumph of recovering from a bad spot. I never am
happy at the prospect that I can't get to Windows on a box all of a sudden.
7) "Fine. You don't think that your answer was complex for someone with few
computer skills. I did. What's the big deal? I never said you were wrong, so
why is this such a big deal?" I don't have anyway of assessing whether she
or her buddy have few computer skills and neither do you. She could have
given a lot better description of her problem. It sounded like it had been
posted in haste and with a backdrop of some understandable frustration--I
don't think it was any accurate index that she couldn't follow directions I
gave her--that downloading Belarc or similar software which does a great job
for free and lists things in neater print than my handwriting or using
msinfo in any runbox--one borrowed, one on an internet connected cell phone,
one on a PDA, one at an internet cafe could do.
I think it's quintissentially lame to criticize one of the very few options
in software recovery for the problem that was posed without offering your
own version. A repair or upgrade install is one of the few software
options. If there are a wide variety of software recovery options, nothing
has stoped you from stating what they are or how you would make instructions
to boot from the CD and do an upgrade/repair install any clearer or less
complex.
I think johnf was even more lame when I haven't found one time on any of
these newsgroups where he has posted even a comma of a solution for anyone.
I'm still waiting to see how you would format the explanation of booting
from the CD and doing a repair install. I thought my links were carefully
chosen and did the job admirably and I'm not sure that the poster was such a
"novice" that she couldn't follow them if she knew enough to get into Safe
Mode via F8 or via the Windows Advanced Options Menu if it showed up on her
screen when and if she turned on that monitor and the PC.
8) There are always the options that you and johnf seem to be suggesting.
You could blow off the request for help and ignore it, or you could post a
wonderfully helpful comment that you think she needs to get help at her
location or to take the PC somewhere to get help. Otherwise, I'd like to
see how you would relay that a repair install is one of the least traumatic
options if it works, and the problem is not remedied by a hands on hardware
repair solution.
9) "extremely complex answer" I'd be delighted to see your version of an
extremely concise straight forward simple answer in contrast on how to do a
repair install. You've balked at showing me the way you would state it. I
can't wait to drag it into a folder.
"Your answer had a lot of information, a lot of steps involved" It had the
steps involved to do the job from 3 of the clearest, most concise sources I
could find. The MSKB on it which is not complex, Michael Stevens' clear
instructions (a MSFT MVP with a nice, useful site) and screenshots from
www.windowsreinstall.com You're suggesting there should be less
information and less complexity and less steps involved and I've extended
you multiple invitations to show us how a technical writing expert such as
yourself would go about it. Go for it D. Curry--show me. Would you say "go
get some help now--it's complex!" "Put it in your car and find a store you
can trust when you hit them with $150 or so to do it for you"?
I want to see the D. Curry method for a repair install. You seem to
indicate it's in there dying to get out.
10) Lessee. I gotta box and it don't show nothin' up on the screen and when
I have done pushed the button to turn the computer on it still don't show
nothin' on the screen. If I want to use the web, *I'm going to have to find
another device that accesses it.* How much of a revelation is that? I was
the one that offered a way she might get into Windows and fix the problem.
It was reasonable, and if the problem requires a hands on hardware solution,
then I don't have enough information to know whether it will or it won't at
this point.
"Except that she couldn't get into Windows to get to the "run" box. This is
the *only* part of your post that I pointed out was not on point for this
particular user."
If I can't access the run box on this machine, then I'm going to have to
find a machine where I can if I want to. I didn't have the way to send her
the msinfo32 command that would work on her machine. I could only point out
every possible way to find out who made her bios short of going into the
computer and looking.
If she can't get to Windows, she either is able to turn the machine on and
make the monitor work as well or she isn't. I have no idea and neither do
you.
11) *"You seem to be reading a lot into my comments that simply aren't
there"
Nope. I'm telling you expressly and on it's face you and johnf are afraid
to post a solution for her other than to take it for repair or get help.
I'm still waiting to see your Windows software recovery techniques that you
might put into the resource kit or on a site. *That's the one type oif post
I have yet to read with your name on it.* Is it somewhere here I've missed?
*Why are you so reluctant to post it since you have so much aversion to my
solution you thought was complex? Also how did you discern that the poster
was a complete novice or 3 simple sources laid out to do a repair install,
the MSKB, Michael Stevens, and the screenshots would be too hard for Debbie
and her friend to follow?
Do you have a palm reading or Tarrot card service going? How do you know
what's in her head?
Again I'm anxiously awaiting the D. Currie Guide to reinstalling Windows or
Recovering When Safe Mode won't work for novices. I'm sure it's just around
the corner, but we haven't seen it in 3 posts and 18 hours. Hope springs
eternal.
Chad Harris
___________________________________________________________
Chad Harris said:
1) Of course, a high percent of these problems would be a lot easier hands
on. But we don't enjoy that luxury in this setting.
2) I didn't write this. *You* wrote it ( You quoted yourself there).
No, I didn't quote myself, that's the first time I said it. What's your
point?
"The problem with a cut-and-paste post with the complexity of yours is
3) Like most anyone, I cut and paste when I need to put a link or links
into a post or parts of a previous post that I think are appropriate.
4) "For someone who knows what they're doing, changing the bios to boot
from CD or running a repair install of WIndows is not a big effort.For
someone who's in new territory, just getting into the bios and figuring
out how to navigate it can be a daunting task." Most of us have been in
enough teaching and helping situations on the giving or receiving end to
appreciate the empathy here. No one I see posting wasn't a beginner at
some point in their lives or isn't a beginner now in some area of their
learning curves. It may be a big effort, but clear instructions are in
the MSKB or link I give them every single time I mention going into bios
setup. Since I can't be there on the machine, I always have the empathy
to include clear instructions to get to the bios. Instructions navigating
the bios are on the web, and of course many times the person may have the
huge inconvenience of access to only one box and needing to use the
internet by borrowing one from a friend or someone else. That's a given.
I can only give the clearest set of instructions I think will help them
and I try not to camuoflage it in information for other purposes. The
inplace upgrade MSKB, Michael Stevens' instructions and screenshots of an
inplace upgrade are about as clear as it gets to do one.
Also having experienced the boot to windows problem early on as a
beginner, I can compare some of the help in posts I do or see here and
what they are going to get when they call on the phone to MSFT Support
which is not going to be MSFT but Convergys or an OEM help line.
It's not going to mention half the possibilities a high percent of the
time.
I have no idea why you're getting your undies in a knot over this. I just
said that it was a complex answer for someone who isn't very computer saavy.
I didn't say that there was anything wrong with it. Complex is not a value
judgement; it's not good or bad. It's complex, simple, or somewhere in
between. Your answer had a lot of information, a lot of steps involved, a
need to follow links elsewhere and read material that was even more
complicated and technical, therefor I think that it is a little complicated
for someone who isn't used to this type of thing.
5) I can think of dozens of reasons why a computer might not get all the
way
into Windows. Not all of them are software-related. A bad stick of ram,
for
instance, can do some pretty interesting things.
Anyone can think of dozens of hardware related reasons why someone can't
get to Windows. That's right. And some accounts of the problem are a lot
more explicit and specific than the one Debbie who hasn't posted since
offered and can give clues to that. There's probably no one who responds
to a "can't boot to windows problem" that doesn't appreciate every point
your trying to make. We know it can be hardware related. We know they
may only have one box to work with with them that can be dead or not able
to reach the web.
"A bad stick of ram, for instance, can do some pretty interesting things."
Thanks for the earth shaking revelation here. I had no idea a bad stick
or RAM, or a loose stick of ram, or a loose anything made of metal or cord
can do some pretty interesting things.
This is what you said:
"you don't have a wide panopoly of options.
There are actually relatively few simple ones.
....which is what I responded to. Maybe your definition of relatively few is
different than mine.
6) "But it was an extremely complex answer for someone with few computer
skills" I disagree. I think it was an extremely on point answer and the
person with few computer skills may have summoned a friend who could help
execute it. It beat the hell out of ignoring what was a conspicuous plea
for help in upper-case with those little punctuation marks called
explanation points about 35 times.
Fine. You don't think that your answer was complex for someone with few
computer skills. I did. What's the big deal? I never said you were wrong, so
why is this such a big deal?
7) Often in these situations, someone will be working from a friend's
laptop or notebook or PDA to do the post and access the web, so using
Belarc to get info is not out of the question. Many people will remember
what key they have seen a few hundred times to use to get into the bios on
the firmware screen but will not have realized its context when they
stared at it on each boot.
For this reason, using Belarc, Everest Home, SiSoft Sandra, or msinfo 32
in the run box will often apply to help someone get into the bios setup.
Navigating the bios is explained in any number of sites if you google with
those words and have an additional box to google with.
Except that she couldn't get into Windows to get to the "run" box. This is
the *only* part of your post that I pointed out was not on point for this
particular user.
In a perfect world, someone might have that assistance you invoke readily
available but often they don't, can't get it, or can't afford it. That's
one reason they're here.
8) None of my answers are "stock answers." They are tailored to the
problem I see.
I didn't say your answers were. I said there was nothing wrong with stock
answers. A lot of people use them rather than endlessly retyping the same
thing over and over to answer some of the commonly asked questions here.
9) I missed besides critiquing me
Ah, is that was this was about? That I was critiqueing you? I think you
misread it. I was responding originally to your comment that :
"and I have something I can paste to
help the next person, when in a few hours or days from now someone else
can't get into safe mode but can boot from the CD"
I was pointing out that it was a rather complex answer with a lot of
information which may not apply in the next case.
and the plug in the monitor suggestion
what you offered her to help. I don't think anyone who posts doesn't
realize competent hands on help is a good thing to get if they can. Often
the person will summon a lot of help on the group, people will do the best
they can in that format, and rush out after posting the dilemma with the
box, and never look at the group again.
Thanks for the novice posting tips D. Currie. They'd best be directed to
a novice posting forum.
You seem to be reading a lot into my comments that simply aren't there.
I'll continue to try to respond to a request for help when data is at
stake and work with what I'm given. Fortunately, unlike this case the
poster has enough manners when they've put up a plea for help to answer
questions that may make it easier to help them, but about 10% of the time
as in this case, nothing is heard from them after their first frantic
plea.
Best,
Chad Harris
Nice that you're still going to help.