Home vs. Professional

[foo]

It was a spare PC -- I had nothing to do with it in its
prior life, and neither did the owner -- it came with some
assets he bought

....hmm...not sure how that applies to anything - it doesn't negate
what I said, certainly.

Not so long ago a lawyer client got a new XP Dell and found
that one of his proprietary apps wouldn't work on it. I
wiped his hard drive, put on Win2k, and the proprietary
app worked. He had noted the time it took to do certain
things in XP and discovered that they were taking half
the time in 2K. Granted that a lot of this can be
attributed to the extraneous apps that comes with new XP
PC's, but XP is larger than 2K and larger usually always
means slower.

Neither Microsoft's tests (nor anyone else's - please point to a
result showing otherwise) bear out this half-as-fast number you toss
around. Most tests show slightly faster at some things, slightly
slower at others.

It's ironic that Win95, once thought to be a big bloated
OS, can now be entirely stored and run from the memory
that comes with new PC's. Win98 as well in some.

But they're crap OSs compared to a modern OS like XP.

That was over 10 years ago and do believe that if Gates
and company simply improved it year by year, it would been
evolved into a nice little all-purpose lightweight OS, sort
of CE on steroids in 1/2 the space.

CE is more like XP in weight-saving mode. It has many of the same
features and protections. Win3.11 was a 16 bit OS that has little
relationship with modern programming, OS models, and benefits. It was
crap. The only thing it shares with WinXP is a compatibility layer
(WoW), similar looking function calls, and compatibility with the same
hardware.

Umm, it wasn't my PC....

I see. In any case, the script isn't needed to handle hive renaming.
You're talking about moving 4 files around, then moving 4 more files
around - not insurmountable typing by any means. It might take 4
minutes, even at a full 30 seconds per line.

Tried that on the the very first go round. My complaint is that
it's an ancient emulation of DOS and everything has to be typed
in line by line.

Well, by that logic, so's Unix. (tongue firmly in cheek)

Would it have killed them to include a couple
of management apps to make is easier to explore, diagnose and
fix things?

They did. You can type HELP to see them.

"Risky Intranet Stuff"

RIS needs ADS and ADS is just a half-ass version of NDS.

RIS does need AD. ADS is something completely different, so don't use
that term when you mean the Active Directory.

It's
absolutely amazing how little progress had been made in large
network management since Banyan's old SteetTalk system from
the 80's.

Well then, let's all use StreetTalk. Oh...who's Banyan? Didn't they
make Vines?

......but please tell how "that 'deployment' thing is high-maintenance
crock."

That's the only app that really needs regular updating,
both in the program and virus sigs.

RIS doesn't handle that. What in the *world* are you talking about?
Again, do you have any idea what RIS is? This virus suggestion tells
me you don't, or you're horribly confused.

(no answer?)

Roaming profiles were always just another way to slow
down a network. And there is *no* substitute for a full
reimage to reclaim an increasingly sluggish PC.

And with roaming profiles and centralled stored data, the user is
never the wiser. But what makes a PC sluggish? It would be wise to
take a few minutes and look at why your PC is sluggish first - that
will tell you how to fix the problem. I don't have those issues.

You must have noticed how XP PC's slow down far more than
the previous versions of Windows, especially in the first
6-12 months of use, even if no new apps are added.

Nope. In fact, if you don't add or change anything, nothing about the
box will change - it will work the same when you go it. A defrag
might help a tad, but nothing earthshattering. If other things are
happening, you have another problem.

You have any theories for this? I think it's the updates
but I'm not sure. Clearing out junk and temp files and
doing a full defrag doesn't seem to help much.

Because those things don't slow it down. Why would having spare files
on the hard drive slow it down measurably? Defrag can help a bit, but
that assumes a *LOT* of fragmentation.

Ya think
2.4 Ghz P4 PC's should be at least moderately fast, in
theory at least....

You'd think if you're so familiar with the registry you could tell us
what the problem is. Why not do a perfmon and look at what the holdup
is?

 

[Henry Flam]

...hmm...not sure how that applies to anything - it doesn't negate
what I said, certainly.


Neither Microsoft's tests (nor anyone else's - please point to a
result showing otherwise) bear out this half-as-fast number you toss
around. Most tests show slightly faster at some things, slightly
slower at others.


But they're crap OSs compared to a modern OS like XP.


CE is more like XP in weight-saving mode. It has many of the same
features and protections. Win3.11 was a 16 bit OS that has little
relationship with modern programming, OS models, and benefits. It was
crap. The only thing it shares with WinXP is a compatibility layer
(WoW), similar looking function calls, and compatibility with the same
hardware.


I see. In any case, the script isn't needed to handle hive renaming.
You're talking about moving 4 files around, then moving 4 more files
around - not insurmountable typing by any means. It might take 4
minutes, even at a full 30 seconds per line.

When will the ghost of DOS disappear from Windows?

 

[BC]

...hmm...not sure how that applies to anything - it doesn't negate
what I said, certainly.

There was never any backup done, and what was created and
set on it originally was unknown.

Neither Microsoft's tests (nor anyone else's - please point to a
result showing otherwise) bear out this half-as-fast number you toss
around. Most tests show slightly faster at some things, slightly
slower at others.

BS. In the real world environment that my clients live in,
the slowest PC's by far are all running XP's. 450 Mhz P3's
with Win98 are more responsive that 1.5 Ghz P4's running XP.
Other people in that office where that lawyer worked asked
for their XP's to be replaced with 2000 because of his
results. There was one that kept XP, but she relented a
few months later after noticing how much faster the Win2K
machines were compared to hers.

Anecdotal evididence, but I've seen up close and personal.

But they're crap OSs compared to a modern OS like XP.

XP is *NOT* a "modern" OS in any practical sense. It's just
a distant derivative of OS/2. It's slow, bloated, inefficient
and hasn't been anywhere near updated enough to deal with
today's computing environment, especially in terms of
security. It does virtually nothing that Win3.11 couldn't
do.

CE is more like XP in weight-saving mode. It has many of the same
features and protections. Win3.11 was a 16 bit OS that has little
relationship with modern programming, OS models, and benefits. It was
crap. The only thing it shares with WinXP is a compatibility layer
(WoW), similar looking function calls, and compatibility with the same
hardware.

CE is a deliberately crippled, specialized OS. It was intended
to compete with Palm only, and Microsoft made sure that it was
not flexible enough to compete with it's mainstream Windows OS.

Win3.11 had a mix of 16 and 32 bit functions, not too different
from Win 95/98/ME

I see. In any case, the script isn't needed to handle hive renaming.
You're talking about moving 4 files around, then moving 4 more files
around - not insurmountable typing by any means. It might take 4
minutes, even at a full 30 seconds per line.


Well, by that logic, so's Unix. (tongue firmly in cheek)


They did. You can type HELP to see them.

They didn't. I went through them of course. Shades of DOS
2.0. They are primitive by any definition.

RIS does need AD. ADS is something completely different, so don't use
that term when you mean the Active Directory.

They are inseparately tied in.

Well then, let's all use StreetTalk. Oh...who's Banyan? Didn't they
make Vines?

Yep. A very straightforward way to combine servers and objects
into a single network environment. Banyan was stupid not to go
after the NT market when they had the chance.

This sketchily shows the difference between StreetTalk and
AD(s)
http://www.windowsitpro.com/Article/ArticleID/2927/2927.html

.....but please tell how "that 'deployment' thing is high-maintenance
crock."

I had looked into and evaluated lots of deployment software,
from Altris, Microsoft, Symantec and such. While a good idea
on paper, it's expensive and doesn't really help that much
in the real world management of highly heterogeneous networks.
If you want to keep PC's up to date and running in tip top
shape, it's best to take a Cyber Cafe approach and just image
the bloody things with updated models. XP deteriorates too
much under everyday use and with malware infections, and remote
deployment doesn't help here -- each PC needs individual
major tuning up and cleaning. A centralized imaging/backup
system might be useful but considering how IT staff scales
up with the number of PC's, it's usually better off for even
a large organization to decentralize PC management.

RIS doesn't handle that. What in the *world* are you talking about?
Again, do you have any idea what RIS is? This virus suggestion tells
me you don't, or you're horribly confused.

I was talking about remote deployment in general and not
particularly RIS, which I believe is mostly just another
way to load an OS semiremotely.

(no answer?)

OS prep is not the big concern -- OS performance is.

And with roaming profiles and centralled stored data, the user is
never the wiser. But what makes a PC sluggish? It would be wise to
take a few minutes and look at why your PC is sluggish first - that
will tell you how to fix the problem. I don't have those issues.

I don't know why for sure why XP performance deteriorates so
badly. With 98, you could clear out all your junk and temp files,
run defrag, and you get a noticeable bit of speed back, but
with XP.... It just gets slower and slower, even compared to
2K. I have the feeling it might be residual effects from getting
infected with any sort of malware, even if it gets cleaned off.

Nope. In fact, if you don't add or change anything, nothing about the
box will change - it will work the same when you go it. A defrag
might help a tad, but nothing earthshattering. If other things are
happening, you have another problem.

Sorry, but from my experience, XP slows down tremendously as
I have already described. My clients have noticed too,
especially after they get to use a retrofitted PC for
comparison. I actually bring something to read when I'm
troubleshooting or updating older XP PC's.

Because those things don't slow it down. Why would having spare files
on the hard drive slow it down measurably? Defrag can help a bit, but
that assumes a *LOT* of fragmentation.
Well.....


You'd think if you're so familiar with the registry you could tell us
what the problem is. Why not do a perfmon and look at what the holdup
is?

I've spent enough time poking about this crap. None of the tools
seem to point to anything other than general Windows processes.
I have been thinking of trying the recommendations of hard
core gaming PC sites, and they tell you to do disable a LOT of
Standard XP functions

If XP was a true modern OS, you should be able much easier
examine all processes and network functions and better isolate
things without having to set aside a chunk of the day being a
detective.

-BC

 

[foo]

When will the ghost of DOS disappear from Windows?

It isn't DOS. When you see a commandline you think "DOS", and that's
not correct, because.... it isn't DOS.

I noticed you didn't reply to anything else, so I'll consider the rest
of your arguments as abandoned.

 

[foo]

There was never any backup done, and what was created and
set on it originally was unknown.

The original setup (registry) is in c:\windows\repair. Going back to
that would've let you boot, assuming a registry problem. I've now
debunked your comment that you were familiar with the registry. Why
did you make that comment, just out of curiosity?

BS.

No, fact. Point to *any* studies backing up what you've said.

In the real world environment that my clients live in,
the slowest PC's by far are all running XP's. 450 Mhz P3's
with Win98 are more responsive that 1.5 Ghz P4's running XP.

Assuming 64M of RAM, I'd buy that. With a reasonable amount of RAM,
that's laughable.

Other people in that office where that lawyer worked asked
for their XP's to be replaced with 2000 because of his
results. There was one that kept XP, but she relented a
few months later after noticing how much faster the Win2K
machines were compared to hers.
Anecdotal evididence, but I've seen up close and personal.

Yep, it's pretty funny. I'm sure there were *no* other differences,
of course!

XP is *NOT* a "modern" OS in any practical sense. It's just

It certainly is.

a distant derivative of OS/2. It's slow, bloated, inefficient
and hasn't been anywhere near updated enough to deal with
today's computing environment, especially in terms of
security. It does virtually nothing that Win3.11 couldn't
do.

Well, when you look at it like that, we're doing virtually nothing we
couldn't do on a C64.

CE is a deliberately crippled, specialized OS. It was intended
to compete with Palm only, and Microsoft made sure that it was
not flexible enough to compete with it's mainstream Windows OS.

You'd be suprised at how powerful CE is given the hardware and RAM/ROM
constraints it has.

Win3.11 had a mix of 16 and 32 bit functions, not too different
from Win 95/98/ME

Absurd. Win3.11 had Win32s, a pseudo-32 bit engine, but no real
32-bit environment. Win95 had a Win32 environment that could thunk to
16 bit when required.

They didn't. I went through them of course. Shades of DOS
2.0. They are primitive by any definition.

Given that you aren't familiar with the \repair directory and how it
works, I can only surmise that you aren't familiar with the recovery
console in general, so your synopsis of what you think you saw doesn't
surprise me. However, yours is not an informed decision, in this
case. It isn't DOS, and it does have diagnostics and fix tools
included.

They are inseparately tied in.

I can assure you that RIS and ADS have little to do with each other.
ADS's core engine is Sysprep. AD, OTOH, is required for RIS. Your
repetition of what we've already discussed is...strange.

Yep. A very straightforward way to combine servers and objects
into a single network environment. Banyan was stupid not to go
after the NT market when they had the chance.

This sketchily shows the difference between StreetTalk and
AD(s)
http://www.windowsitpro.com/Article/ArticleID/2927/2927.html

Article from 1998. What does www.banyan.com resolve to now, in 2005?

I had looked into and evaluated lots of deployment software,
from Altris, Microsoft, Symantec and such. While a good idea
on paper, it's expensive and doesn't really help that much
in the real world management of highly heterogeneous networks.

In practical terms, tell me how RIS is "high-maintenance crock".
Right now I'm of the impression you only barely know what it is, so I
question how you can work "high maintenance crock" in there.

If you want to keep PC's up to date and running in tip top
shape, it's best to take a Cyber Cafe approach and just image
the bloody things with updated models.
Huh?

XP deteriorates too
much under everyday use and with malware infections, and remote
deployment doesn't help here -- each PC needs individual
major tuning up and cleaning. A centralized imaging/backup
system might be useful but considering how IT staff scales
up with the number of PC's, it's usually better off for even
a large organization to decentralize PC management.

You have no idea what RIS is, do you?

I was talking about remote deployment in general and not
particularly RIS, which I believe is mostly just another
way to load an OS semiremotely.

Why not tell us why you judge RIS as "high-maintenance crock".

OS prep is not the big concern -- OS performance is.

Holy moving goalposts! So why slam deployment methodology as
"high-maintenance crock"?

I don't know why for sure why XP performance deteriorates so
badly. With 98, you could clear out all your junk and temp files,
run defrag, and you get a noticeable bit of speed back, but

There is no logical reason for that, aside from slightly
(defrag...fat32 did fragment). I suspect you're seeing the placebo
effect, unless you're hitting other issues (nearly full HDD, etc.)

with XP.... It just gets slower and slower, even compared to
2K. I have the feeling it might be residual effects from getting
infected with any sort of malware, even if it gets cleaned off.

You have a "feeling". Gotta love it.

Sorry, but from my experience, XP slows down tremendously as
I have already described. My clients have noticed too,
especially after they get to use a retrofitted PC for
comparison. I actually bring something to read when I'm
troubleshooting or updating older XP PC's.

So if you're reading, who's troubleshooting?

I've spent enough time poking about this crap. None of the tools
seem to point to anything other than general Windows processes.
I have been thinking of trying the recommendations of hard
core gaming PC sites, and they tell you to do disable a LOT of
Standard XP functions

I know. They're pretty funny. The folks posting there think they
know more than Microsoft. They're the ones that tell you to run
without a swap file - or to "optimize" your setup by putting your swap
file on your second partition - on the same physical hard drive.
Sigh...

If XP was a true modern OS, you should be able much easier
examine all processes and network functions and better isolate
things

Indeed, you can. The fact that you aren't familiar enough with XP to
do this, though, is the limiting factor.

without having to set aside a chunk of the day being a
detective.

C'mon - Perfmon isn't that complicated.

 

[BC]

The original setup (registry) is in c:\windows\repair. Going back to
that would've let you boot, assuming a registry problem. I've now
debunked your comment that you were familiar with the registry. Why
did you make that comment, just out of curiosity?

Umm....you've only managed to debunk any pretense to
expertise on your part: you might want to take another
look back futher into this thread. Did that -- it didn't
work. And it was unclear if it really was a registry
problem. After a couple of BSOD's the PC started
generating this message on startup:
Windows XP could not start because the following file
is missing or corrupt: \WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CONFIG\SYSTEM

Which I dutifully looked up on Microsoft and tried
their "fix": http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307545

Which didn't work, apparently because of a problem
wih one of the files in the Repair folder.

Get it now finally?

My "comment" was just about there not being any sort
of backup or info about the original state of the PC.
One of the restorations I tried ended up with my being
asked for an unknown password in the Recorely Console.

Look, my original contribution to this thread was in
regards to XP Home vs Professional -- I'm not that
interested in a long debate about whether XP sucks (it
does, though) or the best way to waste time fixing it.

Windows XP is only just a very good example of what
you get as a product when you have a monopoly: poorly
designed and made; needing high maintenance; and with
"features" meant mostly to get you to use other
products made by the same manufacturer. Windows as a
usable product has been around in some form since the
beginning of the 90's. In a competitive environment,
it should have evolved into a very mature, efficient,
and robust product by now. It hasn't. Instead it's
become this massive, insecure kludge dependent on
advances in hardware spees and capacity to make it
work at all with any reasonable functionality.

Artificially binding in highly insecure programs
like Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player as
privileged apps was done strictly as a marketing
effort to undermine the competition, with the net
result of the chronic and endless security issues
we all now face. And far less competition.

As things are now, we are dependent on open source
apps like Linux and Firefox for Microsoft's only
competition in any real sense. Even Apple still only
exists through Microsoft's cynical support to have
another "competitor" to point to when the word
"monopoly" comes up. The US software industry is
dying, with negligible new companies and retail
products replacing the fading and dead ones. Almost
all new US development is only in specialized
vertical market apps, drivers, add-ons to Microsoft
products, and some games. And most of this is the
sort of mundane stuff easily subcontracted out to
India and such. All the real and fresh new stuff
seems to be now originating overseas in Europe and
Asia -- look at who makes things like Nero, Ad-Aware,
Kaspersky, OpenExchange, and even how and where
Linux originated.

The bottom line is that the current version of
Windows is not a good, well-designed product and
that Microsoft is not a good, responsible software
company in terms of product. As a maker of wealth
for its employees and stockholders, though, I have
to admit that it has done quite well. It shows that
monopolies do benefit some people at least.

With that, I'll think I'll exit this little thread.
Some town near me had to fire the network company
that was suppose to upgrade their entire Windows NT
domain system, but instead ended up causing
problems even before any hardware was delivered.
The town IT guy doesn't like my attitude towards
his past decisions, but guess who gets called in
when things get really broken....

Take care.

-BC

 

[foo]

Umm....you've only managed to debunk any pretense to
expertise on your part: you might want to take another
look back futher into this thread.

How so? You aren't familiar with this, apparently, because you
started talking about topics completely unrelated to this one when I
mentioned these details.

Did that -- it didn't
work.

I can assure you that it will take you back to the point you were at
when the machine was first installed. The password would be the same
too - as what it was when installed.

And it was unclear if it really was a registry
problem. After a couple of BSOD's the PC started
generating this message on startup:
Windows XP could not start because the following file
is missing or corrupt: \WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CONFIG\SYSTEM

SYSTEM is a registry file. It's one of four files that make up the
registry.

Which I dutifully looked up on Microsoft and tried
their "fix": http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307545

Which didn't work, apparently because of a problem
wih one of the files in the Repair folder.

Get it now finally?

I'm very familiar with this. Replacing those four files means you'll
boot with what you had when the machine was initially installed - or
when the latest NTBACKUP was done, on an XP system.

My "comment" was just about there not being any sort
of backup or info about the original state of the PC.
One of the restorations I tried ended up with my being
asked for an unknown password in the Recorely Console.

RC will ask for the password from the currently installed registry.

With that, I'll think I'll exit this little thread.
Some town near me had to fire the network company
that was suppose to upgrade their entire Windows NT
domain system, but instead ended up causing
problems even before any hardware was delivered.
The town IT guy doesn't like my attitude towards
his past decisions, but guess who gets called in
when things get really broken....

I hope you aren't doing any deployments with these guys.

 

[BC]

I was thinking a cute, if cruel prank would be to
recommend some Microsoft MVP's to them
since I'm loathe to install Exchange for any
reason or for any amount of money....

-BC

 

[Paul Knudsen]

I just bought Home XP for $165 ( full version, not upgrade )

Is that a good price?

What's the difference between Home and Pro XP?

If you had some older Windows CD around, you could have saved by
getting the upgrade.

 

[Kelly]

Windows XP Professional include unlike Home Edition the follow features: SMP
support, Roaming user profiles, Remote desktop, Access control, Encrypting
file system, Offline files and folders, Remote installation service, Windows
server domain support, Group policy, Software installation and maintenance,
and Multi-lingual user interface support (add-on).

What is the difference between Home Edition and Professional?
http://www.ntcompatible.com/faq35.shtml

Differences Between Home and Pro
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/windowsxp_home_pro.asp

--

All the Best,
Kelly (MS-MVP)

Troubleshooting Windows XP
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com

 

[=?iso-8859-1?Q?Lin=F8nut?=]

Kelly poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:

Windows XP Professional include unlike Home Edition the follow features...

Nice, but why cross-post to comp.os.linux.advocacy? We don't care much for
XP here.

Thanks.

Your site looks nice, by the way.

 

[kurttrail]

Kelly poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:


Nice, but why cross-post to comp.os.linux.advocacy? We don't care
much for XP here.

Because one of your morons started this thread, and crossposted it to
xp.gen, COLA, and CSMA.

Thanks.

Your site looks nice, by the way.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[=?iso-8859-1?Q?Lin=F8nut?=]

kurttrail poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:

Because one of your morons started this thread, and crossposted it to
xp.gen, COLA, and CSMA.

Excuse me, sir, but they are NOT our morons. They are party-crashers who
bring illicit drugs with them.

 

[Kelly]

My bad, as I didn't trim the newsgroups section. This was cross-posted via
XP. As for your comment, thanks and I like your sig. )

--

All the Best,
Kelly (MS-MVP)

Troubleshooting Windows XP
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com

 

[Kelly]

My bad, as I didn't trim the newsgroups section. This was cross-posted via
XP. As for your comment, thanks and I like your sig. )

--

All the Best,
Kelly (MS-MVP)

Troubleshooting Windows XP
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com