Backup solutions

[EA]

(e-mail address removed) (howard schwartz) typed in

You can actually, by using a FAT 2 NTFS driver, some of which are
freeware: You can back up win 2000 or SP system files onto a FAT
15 or 32 drive, even put them in a zip file like you want to. If
your backup disk is a bootable dos or win 9x system, it can also
load a driver that makes an NTFS driver look like a FAT formatted
drive, to the backup system. You can then simply copy 2000 or SP
files back onto the NTFS drive, using dos xxcopy, pkunzip or
whatever.

Some of these drivers cost money, some are free.

Thank you...I will definitely look into that. Also...I'm wondering
whether all these backup problems can be simplified if I install XP to
use FAT32 instead of NTFS. I'm not convinced that the extra features
of NTFS are important to me and there might be benefits to using
FAT32....

emmanuel

 

[vince]

What I was looking for was people's
experiences with specific freeware programs that can be used to back up
the OS to another physical drive. There are several freeware programs
that can do this but I was wondering if anyone has used them
successfully, had problems with any of them, etc.

For Windows9X, I've used JAR, an archiving program that runs from the
command line. There's a 16 bit version and a 32 bit version. The
options are numerous and powerful. Archives can be verified, so you're
sure your backup is good. Archives that have been damaged, from things
like bit rot, can be repaired. Archives can be split into user defined
chunks, so you can burn to CD. Files and folders to be backed up can be
specified in a separate plain text file, for ultimate flexibility and
specificity. There are several levels of file compression that can used
for an archive.

Since JAR32 (the program with support for long file names) runs in
Windows, some files are locked and can not be copied. But it's possible
to have JAR identify all the programs/files it can not archive.

I've never used JAR to create an archive larger than 2GB, so I'm not
sure what happens when you start bumping up against the limits of the
operating system (Win9X). I suspect it works fine under WinXP, but I
don't use XP.

JAR is free for personal use.
<http://www.arjsoftware.com/>

 

[EA]

For Windows9X, I've used JAR, an archiving program that runs from
the command line. There's a 16 bit version and a 32 bit version.
The options are numerous and powerful. Archives can be verified,
so you're sure your backup is good. Archives that have been
damaged, from things like bit rot, can be repaired. Archives can
be split into user defined chunks, so you can burn to CD. Files
and folders to be backed up can be specified in a separate plain
text file, for ultimate flexibility and specificity. There are
several levels of file compression that can used for an archive.

Since JAR32 (the program with support for long file names) runs in
Windows, some files are locked and can not be copied. But it's
possible to have JAR identify all the programs/files it can not
archive.

I've never used JAR to create an archive larger than 2GB, so I'm
not sure what happens when you start bumping up against the limits
of the operating system (Win9X). I suspect it works fine under
WinXP, but I don't use XP.

JAR is free for personal use.
<http://www.arjsoftware.com/>

Thanks Vince but I was looking for XP....I already have a backup scheme
that works for 9x. Nevertheless, I'll check out JAR.....

emmanuel

 

[vince]

I suspect it works fine under


Thanks Vince but I was looking for XP....I already have a backup scheme
that works for 9x. Nevertheless, I'll check out JAR.....

The FAQ on the web site says that JAR works with WinXP, but I can't
testify to that. I've only used it on Win95, 98 and 98SE.

 

[scootgirl.com]

For Windows9X, I've used JAR, an archiving program that runs from the
command line. There's a 16 bit version and a 32 bit version. The
options are numerous and powerful. Archives can be verified, so you're
sure your backup is good. Archives that have been damaged, from things
like bit rot, can be repaired. Archives can be split into user defined
chunks, so you can burn to CD. Files and folders to be backed up can be
specified in a separate plain text file, for ultimate flexibility and
specificity. There are several levels of file compression that can used
for an archive.

[snip]


Their website says: "Ability to store multiple backups in the same archive
using incremental compression" this sounds like a better tool than the zip
option of update (-u).

I will try it!

Karen
http://scootgirl.com/

 

[dadiOH]

(e-mail address removed) (howard schwartz) typed in


Thank you...I will definitely look into that. Also...I'm wondering
whether all these backup problems can be simplified if I install XP
to use FAT32 instead of NTFS. I'm not convinced that the extra
features of NTFS are important to me and there might be benefits to
using FAT32....

emmanuel

I've been away for a while (hurricane) and don't have the complete thread so
forgive me if what I say was said previously.

The easiest way to back up a complete drive is to have another drive that is
bootable. One makes it so at fdisk/format time. Once you have that, all
that is necessary is to copy your main drive to it. That can be done with
*any* copying program, no "cloning" is necessary, no backup programs are
necessary...there are no files that are location critical other than the
boot files and those were placed where they should be when the second drive
was made bootable.

To restore such a drive in it's entirety, one boots from it (either by
swapping cables or a boot manager) and then copies it to the original drive.
Reboot from original drive and all is as it was at the moment it was
originally copied.


--
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

 

[EA]

I've been away for a while (hurricane) and don't have the complete
thread so forgive me if what I say was said previously.

The easiest way to back up a complete drive is to have another
drive that is bootable. One makes it so at fdisk/format time.
Once you have that, all that is necessary is to copy your main
drive to it. That can be done with *any* copying program, no
"cloning" is necessary, no backup programs are necessary...there
are no files that are location critical other than the boot files
and those were placed where they should be when the second drive
was made bootable.

To restore such a drive in it's entirety, one boots from it
(either by swapping cables or a boot manager) and then copies it
to the original drive. Reboot from original drive and all is as it
was at the moment it was originally copied.

Thank you...that answered my original question. That was the backup
method I was planning to use and I wasn't sure if simply copying the
files to another bootable drive would work with XP or if I needed
cloning/imaging....

emmanuel

 

[Chrissy Cruiser]

The easiest way to back up a complete drive is to have another drive that is
bootable. One makes it so at fdisk/format time. Once you have that, all
that is necessary is to copy your main drive to it. That can be done with
*any* copying program, no "cloning" is necessary, no backup programs are
necessary...there are no files that are location critical other than the
boot files and those were placed where they should be when the second drive
was made bootable.

The problem would be that certain files in use (system files) might not get
copied over hence the second drive may not be bootable. Eh?

 

[JP Loken]

The problem would be that certain files in use (system files) might not
get
copied over hence the second drive may not be bootable. Eh?

I agree with dadiOH. (My experience is only with W98, though.)
I copy everything except the swap file (page file).
Windows creates the swap file on the new harddisk later.
I've never had any problems with that.

 

[JP Loken]

I agree with dadiOH. (My experience is only with W98, though.)
I copy everything except the swap file (page file).
Windows creates the swap file on the new harddisk later.
I've never had any problems with that.

I should perhaps have added that after copying and swapping the
harddisks(moved the jumpers), I start with the Fdisk-diskette inserted,
and at reboot, I write
sys C:
in order to install system files.
After completion, I remove the diskette and reboot.

 

[dadiOH]

The problem would be that certain files in use (system files) might
not get copied over hence the second drive may not be bootable. Eh?

A file being in use doesn't preclude it being copied. Moreover, the second
drive was (should have been) set up as bootable originally; once done there
is no need to copy those files again (unless they are screwed up in some
manner).

--
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

 

[dadiOH]

I should perhaps have added that after copying and swapping the
harddisks(moved the jumpers), I start with the Fdisk-diskette
inserted, and at reboot, I write
sys C:
in order to install system files.

Won't hurt but there is no need...once the boot system file(s) are there
they aren't going to disappear. If they should get screwed up in some way
you'll soon know it as the drive won't boot.

--
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

 

[Chrissy Cruiser]

A file being in use doesn't preclude it being copied. Moreover, the second
drive was (should have been) set up as bootable originally; once done there
is no need to copy those files again (unless they are screwed up in some
manner).

By installing a copy of the OS?

 

[dadiOH]

By installing a copy of the OS?

Not quite sure what you mean, two possibilities...

1. If you mean copying the backup drive to the normal C: drive then nothing
is being installed - you are merely replacing what is there now with what
was there previously. Which reminds me of something rather important that I
didn't explain before...

Whatever program used to copy drive <> drive
should be capable of deleting files and folders
from the destination drive if they do not exist
on the source drive.

If that is not done then the restoration is _merging_ files; i.e., the
restored drive will wind up with what was on the backup drive PLUS any
files/folders added to the restored drive since it was backed up. That
could be either good or bad but generally bad. For example, say you back up
your drive; you then install one or more programs which make registry
entries; you then need to restore the backup drive and do so; well, the
files/folders for the program(s) you installed post backup will still be
there but the restore replaced the registry files so the entries refering to
the new programs are gone. That's bad. OTOH, any data files that were made
since backing up will still be there. That could be good. But not good
enough to merge rather than restore.

I get around that problem by making a separate, compressed or uncompressed
backup of various data folders - folders that are important to me and the
contents of which change frequently - before restoring a backup drive.
After restoring the drive I then restore the zip. Restoring the drive
restores the system including programs (except any installed after backing
up); restoring the zip restores data added after the last backup including
such things as docs, web pages saved, programs downloaded but not installed,
all DBX files (mail, newsgroups), etc.

It really isn't necessary to make a separate file of the data folders, they
could just be copied to the backup drive before restoring same.

The program I use to backup drives is Karen's Replicator from
http://www.karenware.com/powertools/powertools.asp and it has settings to
delete files/folders not on the source drive. I'm sure there are others as
well. Another way to accomplish the same thing would be to format the
destination drive before restoring it.
____________________________

2. If, by "installing a copy of the OS?" you mean REinstalling it on top of
itself then that has no bearing on being able to restore a backup drive
that is bootable.

--
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

 

[EA]

Chrissy Cruiser wrote:

Not quite sure what you mean, two possibilities...

1. If you mean copying the backup drive to the normal C: drive
then nothing is being installed - you are merely replacing what is
there now with what was there previously. Which reminds me of
something rather important that I didn't explain before...

Whatever program used to copy drive <> drive
should be capable of deleting files and folders
from the destination drive if they do not exist
on the source drive.

If that is not done then the restoration is _merging_ files; i.e.,
the restored drive will wind up with what was on the backup drive
PLUS any files/folders added to the restored drive since it was
backed up. That could be either good or bad but generally bad.
For example, say you back up your drive; you then install one or
more programs which make registry entries; you then need to
restore the backup drive and do so; well, the files/folders for
the program(s) you installed post backup will still be there but
the restore replaced the registry files so the entries refering to
the new programs are gone. That's bad. OTOH, any data files that
were made since backing up will still be there. That could be
good. But not good enough to merge rather than restore.

I get around that problem by making a separate, compressed or
uncompressed backup of various data folders - folders that are
important to me and the contents of which change frequently -
before restoring a backup drive. After restoring the drive I then
restore the zip. Restoring the drive restores the system
including programs (except any installed after backing up);
restoring the zip restores data added after the last backup
including such things as docs, web pages saved, programs
downloaded but not installed, all DBX files (mail, newsgroups),
etc.

It really isn't necessary to make a separate file of the data
folders, they could just be copied to the backup drive before
restoring same.

The program I use to backup drives is Karen's Replicator from
http://www.karenware.com/powertools/powertools.asp and it has
settings to delete files/folders not on the source drive. I'm
sure there are others as well. Another way to accomplish the same
thing would be to format the destination drive before restoring
it. ____________________________

2. If, by "installing a copy of the OS?" you mean REinstalling it
on top of itself then that has no bearing on being able to
restore a backup drive that is bootable.

The back up procedure you described is more or less what I have been
doing for years and it did work for me on win 9x. My original question
was whether it would work with XP (I'm getting a new system). The
responses that I got were very helpful but since that time I discovered
another alternative, i.e., XP's backup utility. The pro edition of XP
can create a diskette for booting up and restoring the system. That
has certain advantages over the method of making an exact copy to a
bootable drive/partition. For example, it's less likely to have the
back up copy infected by a virus (it's unlikely that the virus will
find the copy, but...). So, I'm thinking of the following for XP pro:

Both drives have partitions. The first partition of the first drive
(bootable) only has the OS on it. Programs and data are on other
partitions. XP's backup utility is used to back up the OS partition.
The other partitions are backed up using freeware copy/zip utilities.
That method allows more flexibility, conserves space, makes it easy to
use incremental backups, etc. However, it cannot be used with XP home
edition. I read somewhere that home edition lets you do the backup but
it does not let you restore using the diskette....

Emmanuel

 

[Chrissy Cruiser]

Not quite sure what you mean, two possibilities...

1. If you mean copying the backup drive to the normal C: drive then nothing
is being installed - you are merely replacing what is there now with what
was there previously. Which reminds me of something rather important that I
didn't explain before...

Whatever program used to copy drive <> drive
should be capable of deleting files and folders
from the destination drive if they do not exist
on the source drive.

If that is not done then the restoration is _merging_ files; i.e., the
restored drive will wind up with what was on the backup drive PLUS any
files/folders added to the restored drive since it was backed up. That
could be either good or bad but generally bad. For example, say you back up
your drive; you then install one or more programs which make registry
entries; you then need to restore the backup drive and do so; well, the
files/folders for the program(s) you installed post backup will still be
there but the restore replaced the registry files so the entries refering to
the new programs are gone. That's bad. OTOH, any data files that were made
since backing up will still be there. That could be good. But not good
enough to merge rather than restore.

This makes very good sense. Re; the OS comment of mine above, I dyed blonde
that morning. LOL

I get around that problem by making a separate, compressed or uncompressed
backup of various data folders - folders that are important to me and the
contents of which change frequently - before restoring a backup drive.
After restoring the drive I then restore the zip. Restoring the drive
restores the system including programs (except any installed after backing
up); restoring the zip restores data added after the last backup including
such things as docs, web pages saved, programs downloaded but not installed,
all DBX files (mail, newsgroups), etc.

It really isn't necessary to make a separate file of the data folders, they
could just be copied to the backup drive before restoring same.

The program I use to backup drives is Karen's Replicator from
http://www.karenware.com/powertools/powertools.asp and it has settings to
delete files/folders not on the source drive. I'm sure there are others as
well. Another way to accomplish the same thing would be to format the
destination drive before restoring it.
____________________________

2. If, by "installing a copy of the OS?" you mean REinstalling it on top of
itself then that has no bearing on being able to restore a backup drive
that is bootable.

See blonde comment above. Thank you for your time.

Here is my specific situation. If you help me, I will allow you to look
down my blouse.

I have W2K, two physical 200g hard drives on a single controller. I am
connected via W2K to an XP Pro machine, a W2K laptop and another W2K
desktop in a network that shares drives, DSL, printers etc.

What I would like to do is to backup the Drive 0 (thank you Phred) in its
entirety to Drive 1 on my machine and all other machines to mine. Then
duplicate those backups around the network; I want duped backed ups in case
any HD fails.

Also, it would be "sweet" if I could do the XP and my machine "on the fly";
that is, mirror or RAID of some sort in near-real time. If not, I would
settle for daily backups and would prefer a backup program that ran where
machine performance is not diluted. Or just run the backups at night,
daily, before the network powers itself down for nighty-night. After an
initial, first run backup, an incremental or other would work (that is, a
backup where only the revised and new files are copied...making the
assumption that this would speed the backup and/or impede CPU performance
the least).

Of course, freeware is preferable...so Corliss doesn't have a manatee with
an OT thread. Him aside, like way over there out of sight, paying for these
services would be okay too. No web based services and no additional RAID
hardware, please.

 

[dadiOH]

Here is my specific situation. If you help me, I will allow you to
look down my blouse.

May I also attach a mirror to my instep?
____________________

I have W2K, two physical 200g hard drives on a single controller. I
am connected via W2K to an XP Pro machine, a W2K laptop and another
W2K desktop in a network that shares drives, DSL, printers etc.

What I would like to do is to backup the Drive 0 (thank you Phred)
in its entirety to Drive 1 on my machine and all other machines to
mine. Then duplicate those backups around the network; I want duped
backed ups in case any HD fails.

OK, what's the problem in doing so?
_____________________

Also, it would be "sweet" if I could do the XP and my machine "on
the fly"; that is, mirror or RAID of some sort in near-real time.

Never used RAID but one of the possibilities thereof is duplication.
Another is splitting (half of data to one drive, half to another) which is
fast but could really mess one up if *either* drive went belly up. There is
at least one more possibility, don't recall what it does or is called.
First two are "Mirror" and "Stripe" IIRC
________________________

Of course, freeware is preferable...so Corliss doesn't have a
manatee with an OT thread. Him aside, like way over there out of
sight, paying for these services would be okay too. No web based
services and no additional RAID hardware, please.

No RAID hardware needed as long as you already have a card that will do it.
If not, a card only costs about $30.

So what about the mirror? On the shoe, not RAID.


--
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

 

[Rick Blackthorn]

EA,

There are probably as many back up strategies as there are users. I would
suggest you visit Fred Langa's web site (www.fredlanga.com) and do a search

http://www.fredlanga.com/
Host name lookup failed.

 

[uncle zero]

http://www.langa.com/

 

[Rick Blackthorn]

http://www.langa.com/

Thanks.