Vista any good ?

  • Thread starter Shaun Dickinson
  • Start date
J

Justin

Stephan Rose said:
There are more alternatives than you think. Just need to open your eyes a
little. Mine were shut too for the longest time.

Of course there are. But that doesn't cover everyone. My company
re-evaluates linux every so often. The last time around there was no way
for our business desktops to move to linux. Not when it came to software or
hardware.

See another thread in this very NG where a user updated his nVidia driver
and got 3 days to re-activate Windows...=)

What does that have to do with anything? I've updated to every single
driver update from Nvidia. That never happened. Just because something
went WRONG on someone's machine, does not mean it's the norm. If even it
happened to a few people, that still doesn't mater. Nvidia obviously
screwed up and they'll fix it.

Sure it does! You do know about the driver revocation thing in Vista
right?
In case any drivers leak DRM content?? =)

Posted in the MS Vista beta group:

Driver Revocation does not mean the driver will stop working. Driver
revocation means the driver will no longer be trusted to play secure
content. This means that your HD Movies will stop playing if the driver is
revoked but it doesn't mean your computer will stop working. Also, Microsoft
is unlikely to revoke drivers just for fun. It is in their interest to
revoke only drivers that have a new driver released.

While we are at it, revocation of hardware is not something that is
downloaded by Windows Update, its a property of the actual Premium Content
disks themselves.

The disk contains a revocation list of any devices (including rogue hardware
players) that can not authenticate with the disk. This actually means that
all of the premium content you already own will still continue to work even
with your revoked device.
_________________

Again, what you said makes no sense. Revoked or not, you are not
inconvenienced in any way.
Nope, I am in a position to use an efficient, working and stable OS. =)

See, this is where you come off sounding like a pompous.... I use Vista and
I have an efficient, working and stable OS. So this round about way of
putting things isn't helping you.
 
S

Stephan Rose

Justin said:
I fail to see your point? My PPC will never see Vista either. But then
again, anything out of hardware spec has absolutely nothing to do with
Vista.

Things that make you go, Hummmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

The point is that it makes Vista useless.

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

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J

Justin

Yes, Vista is useless to old machines. Wow, there's a no brainier!

W2K3 is useless to old machines.
XP is useless to old machines.
W2K is useless to old machines.
Win98 is useless to old machines.
Win95 is useless to old machines.

Linux is useless to old machines.

OSX is useless to old machines.


So then, by your logic, all OSs are useless. Nice!
 
S

Stephan Rose

Justin said:
Yes, Vista is useless to old machines. Wow, there's a no brainier!

W2K3 is useless to old machines.
XP is useless to old machines.
W2K is useless to old machines.
Win98 is useless to old machines.
Win95 is useless to old machines.

Linux is useless to old machines.

Any one of my computers could run ANY one of the above.

Only *one* could run Vista.
OSX is useless to old machines.

OSX I can't comment on, I hear there is an x86 version now but that's about
all I know.
So then, by your logic, all OSs are useless. Nice!

No, just Vista.

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®ã“ã¨æ€ã„出ã™ã²ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
å›ã®ã“ã¨å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸæ™‚ãŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
J

Justin

Stephan Rose said:
Any one of my computers could run ANY one of the above.

Only *one* could run Vista.

Your thinking is back-asswards. Any one of your OLD machines can run an OLD
OS. Find a machine that's OLDER and you start knocking OSs off the list.
Either way, there are plenty of people with 2 year old machines that run
Vista just fine. So I guess it depends on what you call old.

The amount of trolls that claimed XP was garbage because it wouldn’t run on
their old hardware was astounding. But this time around, it's just absurd!
 
G

Guest

I just happen to be one of them morons that like Vista. Sure there some
problems but if you know how to use a PC you would know how to handle it. I
started of using 95 years ago and have gone through ever one, the worse being
XP.
Dido
 
R

ray

I doubt that. As well, there is plenty linux doesn't support.


Good for you. The entire world doesn't have "viable linux alternatives".
It sound like you are not in the position to use a NEW OS. Nothing wrong
with that.


What? That makes no sense.


What? That makes no sense.

I would agree with you 100%. Unfortunately that seems to be quite likely
according to MSs policy.
 
J

Justin

I would agree with you 100%. Unfortunately that seems to be quite likely
according to MSs policy.

Did you miss my reply? A revoked driver means nothing. Other then the fact
that you wont be able to take advantage of the "hole" or "hack":

Posted in the MS Vista beta group:

Driver Revocation does not mean the driver will stop working. Driver
revocation means the driver will no longer be trusted to play secure
content. This means that your HD Movies will stop playing if the driver is
revoked but it doesn't mean your computer will stop working. Also, Microsoft
is unlikely to revoke drivers just for fun. It is in their interest to
revoke only drivers that have a new driver released.

While we are at it, revocation of hardware is not something that is
downloaded by Windows Update, its a property of the actual Premium Content
disks themselves.

The disk contains a revocation list of any devices (including rogue hardware
players) that can not authenticate with the disk. This actually means that
all of the premium content you already own will still continue to work even
with your revoked device.
 
P

Paul-B

Justin said:
The amount of trolls that claimed XP was garbage because it
wouldn’t run on their old hardware was astounding.

Except XP was garbage... until SP1 or, maybe, even SP2.
 
J

Justin

Says who? I implemented XP long before SP1. So obviously that's not true
for everyone.
 
S

Stephan Rose

Justin said:
Says who? I implemented XP long before SP1. So obviously that's not true
for everyone.

It especially is never true for you. =)

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

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å›ã®ã“ã¨å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸæ™‚ãŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
S

Stephan Rose

Justin said:
Your thinking is back-asswards. Any one of your OLD machines can run an
OLD
OS. Find a machine that's OLDER and you start knocking OSs off the list.
Either way, there are plenty of people with 2 year old machines that run
Vista just fine. So I guess it depends on what you call old.

Old OS?? My current OS is having a *new* release next month...nothing old
about that.

Out of curiosity though, how many of those 2 year old machines were able to
run vista out of the box *without* needing significant upgrades?

I mean sure, if I were to sink 500-600 bucks into each one of the computers,
I could probably get from 1 out of 10 to...7 out of 10? Some of the laptops
I am unsure they are upgradable enough.

Vista simply isn't worth that expense.

An OS needs to consume the *least* amount of resources possible not the
*highest* amount of resources possible.
The amount of trolls that claimed XP was garbage because it wouldn’t run
on
their old hardware was astounding. But this time around, it's just
absurd!

Most likely because the operating system is so absurd?

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®ã“ã¨æ€ã„出ã™ã²ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
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J

Justin

Stephan Rose said:
It especially is never true for you. =)

Never say never! My first batch of XP installations were horrible.
However, drivers where long since straightened out prior to SP1.
 
J

Justin

Stephan Rose said:
Out of curiosity though, how many of those 2 year old machines were able
to
run vista out of the box *without* needing significant upgrades?

$0. Don't assume everyone wants ultimate and everything it has to offer.
Most likely because the operating system is so absurd?

Most likely the people are.

So tell us, these systems that are out of spec. How old are they and what
are they?
 
N

Nina DiBoy

Stephan said:
Any one of my computers could run ANY one of the above.

Only *one* could run Vista.


OSX I can't comment on, I hear there is an x86 version now but that's about
all I know.
http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


No, just Vista.


--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"DRM is not added to anything in Vista."

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot
 
S

Stephan Rose

Justin said:
$0. Don't assume everyone wants ultimate and everything it has to offer.

Fair enough, however...the lowest Vista release doesn't even register on my
radar as it offers absolutely no benefit over XP in any way at all. Not
even useless eyecandy.

That's just to run Vista for the point of running Vista.
Most likely the people are.

Don't know. You're probably the strongest supporter of Vista I've met yet!
Everyone I've talked to personally either on the phone, or in person,
doesn't even want to hear the word Vista.

We just had the owner of a company in today that will be manufacturing
plastic parts for us and I just asked him what CAD packages they were using
and under what OS since I am still evaluating multiple linux alternatives
there. So that kind of sparked Vista there for a moment.

He's trying not to even think about it and the costs and problems that he'll
incur if and when he has to one day switch.

That seems to be a pretty common attitude towards vista with every single
person I interact with.
So tell us, these systems that are out of spec. How old are they and what
are they?

They are anything ranging from 5 months old to 6 years old all currently
running XP across the board. This very system I am using right now included
but here XP is dual-boot and except for the occasional gaming I don't even
boot into XP anymore.

All other systems are currently running XP Only. All operating flawlessly.

These are spread out between my apartment, my parents house and the office
at my parents and all for various different uses.

With the exception of my primary two development machines, they are all
low-end machines.

My latest machine right here being a E6600 Core Duo with 2 gigs ram and a
7800 GT is the only real reasonable candidate that I'd consider Vista on
performance wise.

My other development system which is a P4 3.0GHz with 1 gig of ram with a
6600 would probably be capable of running Vista, but seeing its XP
performance I don't consider it a likely candidate for the performance
level I expect. I run very demanding apps on both those systems so the less
resources the OS uses, the better!

Then all the remaining machines are various aged Pentium 4's ranging from 2
years old to 6 years old. Less than a gig of ram each...and no significant
hardware accelerated video.

They are just machines used for accounting, word processing, e-mail, that
type of stuff. Most might meet the very very lowest spec Vista but seeing
how everything is running XP Professional right now, that'd be a downgrade
just from that standpoint. If I wanted to get a version of Vista that is
considered on the same level as XP Professional...forget about it.

We have run the upgrade advisor on multiple systems...it had complaints on
every single one.

And there are two systems, the 6 yearish old ones, that I simply don't see
Vista running on...but it'd make no sense to replace them just to run a
different OS as they are more than sufficient to do their job.

Peripherals are another major problem.

We've got a HP laser printer sitting around too that is also around the 6
year age mark now I think. Ya seriously think HP will release Vista drivers
for it? But it does its job...

I don't even know if there are any vista drivers for our color laser yet
either. Though if not, that one *might* get some drivers...maybe...

I have a whole bunch of development hardware, j-tag debuggers and the like,
which are not vista supported as there aren't any vista drivers for them at
this point. Will that change? Yea...eventually.

But ya know what? To really be honest...none of this really is my ultimate
problem with Vista. Really, my ultimate problem isn't even with Vista. I
mean sure, it's got no feature that in any way particularly appeals to me
(or anyone I know)...and has plenty of things that don't appeal to me (and
lots of people I know)...but aside that...

My ultimate problem is with Microsoft themselves at this point in time.

The way they are basically forcing this onto everyone. The way they are
trying to milk every last drop out of their customers. You may say users
have a choice, but do they really? Temporarily...yes. But only
temporarily.

DX10 being exclusive to Vista is a choice I don't agree with. And yes, it's
a choice. DX is an interface...making it XP compatible would not be
impossible.

The whole activation crap with the now constant "genuine" monitoring is
something I don't agree with. If my purchase of the software is not good
enough anymore I don't need to buy it at all.

The whole set of guidelines MS is working on imposing on developers on how
to develop their software is something I don't agree with. I am going to
develop my applications the way the work-flow and app makes the most sense,
not the way it looks prettiest in Vista. I mean there are things in those
guidelines that do make sense, I won't disagree. Generally things that a
5th grader with common sense could figure out. But they are also trying to
put applications that follow their guidelines at certain "advantages" over
applications that don't. Just in terms of marketing for now but...I do try
to think ahead in the future.

The guideline thing doesn't affect me all that much, at this point in time,
as I design specialized apps that don't compete with the mass market...but
I do worry about what it might mean in the future.

Overall, to really boil it down to the real thing that bugs me the most?

I just can no longer agree with MS' overall philosophy. I don't like the
path they are walking down. MS appears to be going down the path that's
called "Our way or get lost"...well...I got lost and chose my own way.

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®ã“ã¨æ€ã„出ã™ã²ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
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J

Justin

Stephan Rose said:
Fair enough, however...the lowest Vista release doesn't even register on
my
radar as it offers absolutely no benefit over XP in any way at all. Not
even useless eyecandy.

Fair enough.
We just had the owner of a company in today that will be manufacturing
plastic parts for us and I just asked him what CAD packages they were
using
and under what OS since I am still evaluating multiple linux alternatives
there. So that kind of sparked Vista there for a moment.

He's trying not to even think about it and the costs and problems that
he'll
incur if and when he has to one day switch.

That seems to be a pretty common attitude towards vista with every single
person I interact with.

That's VERY common. I as well am not ready to move forward with Vista. I
still need lots of drivers in order to move forward. 300+ machines. As
well as our main accounting package is not up to speed yet. SAP.

They are anything ranging from 5 months old to 6 years old all currently
running XP across the board. This very system I am using right now
included
but here XP is dual-boot and except for the occasional gaming I don't even
boot into XP anymore.

I doubt the 6 year old machine is doing very well with XP. It certainly
isn't pushing any limits.
All other systems are currently running XP Only. All operating flawlessly.

I bet they all run Win98 flawlessly. So why upgrade to XP? :)

My latest machine right here being a E6600 Core Duo with 2 gigs ram and a
7800 GT is the only real reasonable candidate that I'd consider Vista on
performance wise.
Ok.

My other development system which is a P4 3.0GHz with 1 gig of ram with a
6600 would probably be capable of running Vista, but seeing its XP
performance I don't consider it a likely candidate for the performance
level I expect. I run very demanding apps on both those systems so the
less
resources the OS uses, the better!

Vista with classic? You wont get eye candy but you'll get all the other new
features.
Then all the remaining machines are various aged Pentium 4's ranging from
2
years old to 6 years old. Less than a gig of ram each...and no significant
hardware accelerated video.

You don't need a gig of ram and you don't need significant hardware
accelerated video.
They are just machines used for accounting, word processing, e-mail, that
type of stuff. Most might meet the very very lowest spec Vista but seeing
how everything is running XP Professional right now, that'd be a downgrade
just from that standpoint. If I wanted to get a version of Vista that is
considered on the same level as XP Professional...forget about it.

Well, if you don't need the added features then of course you don't need
Vista. I just hate to see people make claims that they wont update "just
because" of everything they read when knuckleheads like alias run around
screaming bloody murder about Vista.

Same as...Vista is too expensive!

BS!

It's the same price as XP. Ultimate aside. If you can't afford it then
just say you don't have the money.

We have run the upgrade advisor on multiple systems...it had complaints on
every single one.

Such as?

We've got a HP laser printer sitting around too that is also around the 6
year age mark now I think. Ya seriously think HP will release Vista
drivers
for it? But it does its job...

What model? If it's one of the tanks then yes, they did.

I don't even know if there are any vista drivers for our color laser yet
either. Though if not, that one *might* get some drivers...maybe...

Check the site. A ton of HP drivers already come with Vista.
I have a whole bunch of development hardware, j-tag debuggers and the
like,
which are not vista supported as there aren't any vista drivers for them
at
this point. Will that change? Yea...eventually.

Perfectly valid.
The way they are basically forcing this onto everyone. The way they are
trying to milk every last drop out of their customers. You may say users
have a choice, but do they really? Temporarily...yes. But only
temporarily.

I can't agree with that. I wont pretend to fully understand all the
politics between MS and hardware vendors but it clearly seems to be "the
people" that drive this force.

1. If you want Windows then you buy a PC.
2. If you want Mac then you buy Apple.
3. There is absolutely no "strong drive" for Linux. Period. If there was,
then people would be cashing in (retailers).
4. Build your own. Mom/Pop store.

The consumer has choice.
DX10 being exclusive to Vista is a choice I don't agree with. And yes,
it's
a choice. DX is an interface...making it XP compatible would not be
impossible.

Yup, it was a choice. However, "making it XP compatible"...costs money. I
can understand why they didn't. In fact there where many reasons that I
read. Off the top of my head, costs and the need to drive forward. They
wanted devs to create DX10+Vista apps and not have to worry about making
DX10+XP+Vista apps.

The whole set of guidelines MS is working on imposing on developers on how
to develop their software is something I don't agree with. I am going to
develop my applications the way the work-flow and app makes the most
sense,
not the way it looks prettiest in Vista.

Are you saying the guidelines do not allow for efficient work-flow or
work-flow that makes sense? I think you'd have a fight on your hand there
with the devs.
I mean there are things in those
guidelines that do make sense, I won't disagree. Generally things that a
5th grader with common sense could figure out. But they are also trying to
put applications that follow their guidelines at certain "advantages" over
applications that don't. Just in terms of marketing for now but...I do try
to think ahead in the future.

Fair enough.
 

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