Screenshot Captor: A New Definition for Freeware

V

Vegard Krog Petersen

Quote: the term "freeware" only means you dont have to pay money....
see this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware

As said before in this thread:
That's just the definition of the user(s) who wrote this particulary entry and not any kind of official definition of the term "freeware"...

If you want a more widely accepted definition of freeware (at least
prefered by most athe alt.comp.freeware participants:

regards from

--
Vegard Krog Petersen - Norway

http://vegard2.no -
Solitaire MahJongg guide, Sarah Michelle Gellar Solitaire,
Freeware Logo & symbol, Halma & Chinese Checkers,
Pachisi & Ludo, Freeware Solitaire, My fishy site (fishing
games), a.c.f.g information, Fredrikshald Havfiskeklubb
18+ sites: Firefoxy, Adult Solitaire, Fishy Pictures,
Sexy Chess, Sexy Librarians, Sexy Football
---------------------------------------------------------
 
J

John Fitzsimons

(Verata nicktoo!, or however it's spelt :)
I see your points... it's a bit hard to classify the software, IMHO. The
programs are fully functional and without time expiration (except for the
"visit forum one more time after 6 months to obtain never-expiring license"

< snip >

Your "without time expiration" comment is like saying "commercial
software is completely free.....once one has paid the vendor the
required amount."

Er, no. If one doesn't go back after 6 months it does expire. So it
isn't "without time expiration". If it was without time expiration one
wouldn't need to go back to their site after 6 months.
 
T

tsaint

VKP:
"
Legally obtainable : Yes
May use at no cost: yes
As long as you wish: yes
Sure seems to fit the definition to me.
Possible objection : but there is a cost in that you have to register
(cost here = effort plus time plus bandwidth )
If that objection is valid, then there is no such thing as freeware,
unless you could tell me of some software you obtained where you didnt
have to download it, install it do x, y and z to use it. Thus the
definition would be useless.

[rant]This is so pedantic - its freeware unless you want to donate some
money. Whinging about having to make a 6 monthly visit to register as
opposed to simply saying "thanks for the software and empowering me by
giving the choice to me whether to fork out money or not" is the most
disheartening thing I've come across in a long long time.
Maybe Im too old and can remember a time when if you could get
something for free you were actually "GRATEFUL". When people, when
they were given something, said "thank you" as opposed to "why didn't
you give me more?" or "geez, that colour shirt you gave me is crap".
[/rant]
 
G

Gary R. Schmidt

Susan said:
It's disheartening to see so many posts saying Freeware is any software
that's free because. . .

For weeks now I've been working on filling in the missing ware
descriptions on the ACF pages (only a few hundred more to go). If anyone
*likes* those detailed ware descriptions please speak up. I need some
encouragement. . .
Encouragement!

Liberal shovelfuls of it!!!!!

Cheers,
Gary B-)
 
M

mouser

we may be getting rid of the need to return to the site in 6 months..

but let me offer my opinion on nagware and expiration stuff.

if a program pops up nags constantly, let's say once a day or once a
week or more, until you BUY the full version, then to me i wouldn't
call that freeware. the nags are too obnoxious and would interfere
with normal use. to me thats not freeware since the pain of using it
freely is too high.

if a program expires and stops working until you BUY the full version,
that's certainly not freeware.

in our case, the programs will never stop working.

a nag does come up asking you to sign up at our forum for a free
license key. after that the nag will dissapear for 6 months, at which
point it will come up again asking you to visit our site again and get
a renewed key. 6 months after that you can download a never-expiring
(never-again-nagging) license that works on all of our software.

the idea is simply to try to remind people who really use our software
that we are working our hearts out and try to get them to visit our
site and see what we've done in the last 6 months and get them to give
a few seconds of thought to the idea of donating. if they email us and
say they know they are never going to donate then we just send them the
non-expiring key right away.

i do still *personally* consider our approach freeware (and
donationware) because of the minimal nature of the requirements to use
the program. [i also consider "registerware" to be freeware, and would
say that we are registerware also].

having said all that, we are considering removing the need for the 6
month return to the site, in place of a page that asks the person to
read a statement about the site and indicate then and there that they
do not ever want to be bothered by us again. but note this will still
involve and initial nag and need to sign up to get a (non-expiring)
license key. if we didn't do that then people would be downloading our
software from 3rd party sites and never even visit our site a single
time to find out what we are about.

let me also add that we have never, and will never, share any signup
info (email is all we ask for at signup) with anyone.

I have said in the past, i do understand that freeware advocates are
very protective of the term, and don't want it to get diluted by
software that isn't really free. it is our intention to keep to what i
feel are the core principles: software that you do not have to pay for,
do not have to do non-trivial steps to obtain, and and which does not
pester you in non-trivial ways.

I realize that requiring the person to sign up at our forum and
download a license key is annoying to users and that most would rather
not do so. please take a look at the article we wrote about this
(http://articles.donationcoder.com/One/index.html) for a long
discussion about why we decided we had to do it.

People can and do occasionally donate 1 cent to us; anything under a
donation of 25 cents is taken completely by paypal so we receive
nothing. nonetheless such donations are accepted as granting full
lifetime membership on our site, with a full non-expiring license key
for all of our programs. The point i'm just trying to emphasize is the
same one at the heart of the article - which is that our aim is simply
to get people to pause and consider whether they want to support our
work, and get them to consider what we are asking for and why. Not to
punish people for not donating. We're also happy to give anyone a full
refund for any donation they ever make.

I wish I had a source of income that would allow me to program and not
have to ask for donations. I am not a big fan of capitalism, and i
find the distribution of income in this world depressing as hell. It
seems like everything is designed to separate the world into super rich
people and those who must struggle every day to get by. My interest is
to find a way to keep our software free for everyone with the smallest
amount of inconvenience that can still get people to spend a few
seconds of their life considering whether we are a worthy cause to
donate to. I wish most things were donation-based (music, software,
etc.) and that people were willing to donate what they could afford and
thought something was worth. It would offer a way for people who make
stuff to get enough money to live on (maybe) and still make the stuff
available to everyone without regard for income.

Whether you like our software and approach or not, or ESPECIALLY if
not, ask yourself how often you use a freeware program and have not
sent an email to the author saying thank you, or donated to the author
when they have a donation button. Lots of authors have freeware and
have a button where you can make a donation to them. Do you? Have you
ever seen freeware get abandoned or never finished, or always lacking a
finished help file? or no support forum? Most freeware authors want
nothing more than to keep programming for the love of it, but then they
get to some point where they have to buy food and pay rent, and unless
they are independently wealthy, they have to make hard decisions about
where to spend their time. I encourage you to donate to authors before
they get to that point. If you have some freeware software you really
like, i encourage you strongly to go visit the authors site and see if
he/she accepts donations, and if so, send them a little. show them
that their work is appreciated and make it possible for them to afford
to keep working on it.
 
R

Ron May

Some freeware does require to get a license key to use the program. For
example, I use the freeware version of Avast & the program runs in
trial mode until you get a free license key. The free license key for
Avast expires once a year & when it expires, you have to get a new key.

Getting a free license key for a freeware prog doesn't bother me
because if it seems like a good program, I'll go thru the hoops of
getting a license key to use the program.

A bit slow on the reply here, but I think you hit the nail squarely on
the head. I, too, use Avast, and don't mind annually renewing the key
because (1) it's a program constantly in use, and (2) the renewal
process doesn't seem to me to be excessively annoying or cumbersome.

"Freeware" registration is one of those gray areas. My personal
tolerance level is determined by a series of factors. Some things I
usually consider are:

* How often will I use the program?
* Are other non-registration freeware equivalents available?
* How intrusive or complicated is the registration process?

Obviously, these are all subjective questions and not everybody will
agree with what's acceptable or not acceptable. In the case at hand,
(DonationCoder) the registration process seems overly irritating and
"preachy," and the offerings, while they appear to be interesting and
useful, just don't seem to be worth the hassle, at least to me. YMMV,
but I see it as a triple-header combination of donationware, nagware
and registerware. I'll pass.
 
R

Ron May

It's disheartening to see so many posts saying Freeware is any software
that's free because. . .

For weeks now I've been working on filling in the missing ware
descriptions on the ACF pages (only a few hundred more to go). If anyone
*likes* those detailed ware descriptions please speak up. I need some
encouragement. . .

Susan

Susan, you're absolutely irreplaceable! ALL of your efforts are
GREATLY appreciated.

NOW GET BACK TO WORK!!!

(Just kidding, of course. TONS of thanks for all you do.)
 
A

app103

I have 2 perspectives on donationcoder.com...as both a software user
and as a freeware developer:

I found the website when searching for a utility program. I am one of
those that uses sites like downloads.com and tucows as research and not
for downloading. I always visit the developer's site if possible and
download from there instead. I have my reasons for this, mostly for the
sake of getting the full story on software before I download it.

The site didn't have quite what I needed, but I was intrigued by it and
took a look around, visited the forum, etc. I was quite impressed.

It's a community of developers and users...the perfect combination.
Users can ask for what they want, and if anybody knows freeware that
will do the job, they will be supplied with a link to where you can get
it. If nobody knows of any freeware that will do it, some of the
developers may volunteer to write just what you need. As a user, you
win almost every time.

As a developer of freeware, I win too. I get to see what people want &
need and can add those as features in my software. I can get a lot of
good ideas from the forums. I can also use the forums as an opportunity
to further my programming education. The developers there are from many
backgrounds, countries, and programming languages. All willing to help
each other and the donationcoder.com community. And the software
requests challenge my abilities to solve problems.

There is no issues with big egos and the people there are easy to talk
to and very polite.

When was the last time you were able to just ask a developer for what
you wanted and then they make it for you...without expecting you to
have to pay them if you didn't want to?

And people are generous when they understand that you are trying to
make a living from what you love to do. I never made a dime from
programming till I found that website. And I think I appreciate the
small amount I made from there more because it was not forced upon
anybody to pay for my work, it was because they wanted to. That says a
bit more to me than money made from shareware. Nobody ever clicks the
donation button on my website...and nobody ever clicks the few ads I
have there. The software is all free and I would feel guilty for
charging anybody for it as I don't feel it's worthy of asking for money
for it. But you flatter me when you toss me a dollar or two. I view it
as a compliment...and it encourages me to keep coding and making better
software.

Now if I decided to start coding full-time, I would hope that I could
still pay my bills and put food on my table. If I was giving my
software away for free it wouldn't be likely that would happen unless
someone donated to me. If they didn't, I would be forced to abandon my
projects and go work for someone else on their payware, or make my
projects shareware.

Donationcoder is all about reminding the user not to forget the little
guys that write the software...and reminding the freeware developer who
they write for. There is plenty of donationware out there that is
labeled and assumed as freeware. Most users don't take the time to
notice that software like Spybot Search & Destroy is donationware and
not freeware. Did you donate to further development of Spybot? or did
you assume it was freeware because nothing brought it to your attention
that it wasn't...like a simple nag screen.

What if great projects like Spybot Search & Destroy just disappeared
and you were forced to buy all your stuff? or worse...buy it all from
big companies like Microsoft that don't really care about the end user
and just care about the $?

I think mouser's cause is a noble one and vital to the survival of
quality freeware. So next time you think you are getting something for
nothing, just remember that nothing is really free...someone somewhere
paid for it...even if it was the developer himself that did, with his
many hours of hard work, frustration, etc. If you aren't going to toss
them a little cash, at least say thank you and tell them how much you
enjoy their work. A compliment is a small price to pay but has a big
impact.

Don't forget the little guys...that's all mouser and donationcoder.com
is trying to say...and he says it well.
 
D

Daniel Mandic

app103 said:
I think mouser's cause is a noble one and vital to the survival of
quality freeware. So next time you think you are getting something for
nothing, just remember that nothing is really free...someone somewhere
paid for it...even if it was the developer himself that did, with his
many hours of hard work, frustration, etc. If you aren't going to toss
them a little cash, at least say thank you and tell them how much you
enjoy their work. A compliment is a small price to pay but has a big
impact.

I think it's a delicate expedition to praise someones work without
having paid for, not leaving untold that you have not paid for.



Best Regards,

Daniel Mandic
 
V

Vegard Krog Petersen

VKP:
"
Legally obtainable : Yes
May use at no cost: yes
As long as you wish: yes
Sure seems to fit the definition to me.

You forgot the "otherwise" = nags

regards from

BTW: I have nothing against Donationcoders. Think they do a good job.
But I'm becoming a bit "corlissy" about the definition of freeware...

regards from

--
Vegard Krog Petersen - Norway

http://vegard2.no -
Solitaire MahJongg guide, Sarah Michelle Gellar Solitaire,
Freeware Logo & symbol, Halma & Chinese Checkers,
Pachisi & Ludo, Freeware Solitaire, My fishy site (fishing
games), a.c.f.g information, Fredrikshald Havfiskeklubb
18+ sites: Firefoxy, Adult Solitaire, Fishy Pictures,
Sexy Chess, Sexy Librarians, Sexy Football
---------------------------------------------------------
 
M

mouser

this is an honest real question:
if an author makes a freeware program (by your definition).
and one day in one forum post mentions he will accept donations,
has his software suddenly now become not freeware any longer?

is the very act of accepting a donation (or putting a Donate button on
one's site), enough to disqualify a program from being called freeware?
 
S

Susan Bugher

mouser said:
i do still *personally* consider our approach freeware (and
donationware) because of the minimal nature of the requirements to use
the program. [i also consider "registerware" to be freeware, and would
say that we are registerware also].
I have said in the past, i do understand that freeware advocates are
very protective of the term, and don't want it to get diluted by
software that isn't really free. it is our intention to keep to what i
feel are the core principles: software that you do not have to pay for,
do not have to do non-trivial steps to obtain, and and which does not
pester you in non-trivial ways.

The definition of Freeware is often discussed in terms of good or bad
(if it's good it's Freeware, if it's bad it's not). IMO the main concern
should be clarity - "free enough for me" is different for everyone. . .

If freeware is used as an umbrella term additional language is needed to
give a full software description (IS Donationware or is NOT
Donationware, IS Registerware or is NOT Registerware, IS Spyware or is
NOT Spyware, is Trialware or is NOT Trialware etc. etc. etc.).

ACF participants prefer the KISS (keep it simple stupid) approach.
"Freeware: Legally obtainable software that you may use at no cost,
monetary or otherwise, for as long as you wish."

If it's Freeware one word tells the *whole* story. By definition
Freeware is NOT Spyware, NOT Adware, NOT Trialware, NOT Donationware,
NOT Registerware etc. etc. etc. etc.

You say your software is Freeware on your web pages. Saying "Freeware"
caused a misunderstanding and that misunderstanding led to the first
post in this thread. IMO if your goal to avoid misunderstandings saying
"Donationware" and "Registerware" or simply "free" would be better.

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
S

Susan Bugher

S

Susan Bugher

mouser said:
this is an honest real question:
if an author makes a freeware program (by your definition).
and one day in one forum post mentions he will accept donations,
has his software suddenly now become not freeware any longer?

is the very act of accepting a donation (or putting a Donate button on
one's site), enough to disqualify a program from being called freeware?

According to the ACF Ware Glossary if the author requests donations it's
Donationware (not Freeware).

"Donationware: monetary contribution requested (optional)."

Comment. . . Why the loaded language (disqualify)? Don't most authors
*want* people to know they accept donations? "Donationware" tells them
that they do. "Freeware" (used as an umbrella description) does not.

One goal of ACF's ware definitions is to furnish as much ware
information as possible in the least amount of space. If you want to see
the ACF definitions in action check the ACF web pages:

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/P_BUSINESS-HOME.php
etc.

The ware glossary is here:
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/WareGlossary.php

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
S

Susan Bugher

»Q« said:
Certainly that's the most common type of nagware, but nagging people to
make a "donation" or to visit your website repeatedly is also nagging.

I wrestled with that for a while because you can *remove* the nags for
free. . .

Currently the ACF pages show this ware description for Mouser's apps:
"(Donationware) (Registerware: keyed/renewable (key removes nags)) (free)"

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
M

mouser

the glossary is great, and i love the way you have
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org Ware column - very clear and
informative.
i will link to the glossary from our pages.

i wish more people were familiar with the variety of terms; i think a
real problem we have is that most laypeople understand only that
freeware = they dont have to pay, and shareware = they have to buy it.
anything else is a mystery to them, which makes it a bit hard to use
other terms without engaging in an attempt to educate people which
isn't something most people want when they visit a site.

my question was only meant to highlight what i think is the troublesome
aspect of the term donationware. for example, if i take a freeware
program and ask people on my webpage to consider petting their cat
while they download, have i now transformed my software from being
freeware to being petware? my point is only that the operative
significant qualities of the software and what it takes to get it and
use it haven't changed, and that's why i would personallly still call
that freeware.

in other words my definitions are more inline with the wiki page posted
than your glossary, only to the extent that i would consider freeware a
parent classification, and put something like donationware as a
subcategory. that is, something that is donationware would also still
be considered freeware if it meets the freeware requirements. that's
my view - i don't see them as exclusive categories and i don't think
something stops being freeware the moment an author mentions being
willing to accept donations.

other ideas i wouldn't mind having terms for: what about a program that
you *must* pay for, but you can decide on the price. what about a site
that let you pay one amount and get all software the company makes
forever (i've seen this one a few times)? what would we call such
software?
 
C

cactus

Susan said:
It's disheartening to see so many posts saying Freeware is any software
that's free because. . .

For weeks now I've been working on filling in the missing ware
descriptions on the ACF pages (only a few hundred more to go). If anyone
*likes* those detailed ware descriptions please speak up. I need some
encouragement. . .

Susan

We appreciate, like and rely on them.

As my (college age) daughter would say, "You go, girl!"
 

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