[PL] PL2006 Ware Issues

T

thunder7

I use IrfanView (3.97 current ver) for just about all my graphic needs
and Yes it is FREEWARE meaning FREE!!!.
I have used this program for a good many years, it has always been
free.
It is an excellent program!.
It is very robost little program.
 
S

Susan Bugher

Alastair said:
not sure about this - one of the reasons I contribute less to this
group than I have done before is the infighting - and I dislike
Susan's approach to this role at times - especially around the big
fights around who owned pricelessware etc.

Thanks for those kind words - obviously intended to promote peace and
harmony in the group. ;)
I would not want your job Susan, but in this case, you seemed to
impose your own views over those I saw expressed in this thread -

Some things are matters of opinion. Some are matters of fact. I accepted
a *analysis* of IrfanView's behavior and applied the Ware Glossary
definitions as they have been applied in the past.

If someone else wants this "job" please speak up. I've about had it. . .

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
A

Alastair Smeaton

Thanks for those kind words - obviously intended to promote peace and
harmony in the group. ;)
:)


Some things are matters of opinion. Some are matters of fact. I accepted
a *analysis* of IrfanView's behavior and applied the Ware Glossary
definitions as they have been applied in the past.

It seemed to me that you ignored the majority view expressed - so I
said so
If someone else wants this "job" please speak up. I've about had it. . .

Susan

As I said, no thanks :)
 
T

Tarapia Tapioco

| If someone else wants this "job" please speak up. I've about had it. . .

SNIFF...SNIFF
 
A

A.Melon

| There are non-monetary costs when an author bundles extraneous software
| with an app. IrfanView is not Freeware.

I have to apologize to you. See, all this time I thought you was just
a stupid twit. Now I can see that you are a complete ****ing moron.
Sorry that I got it wrong.
 
B

burnr

It seemed to me that you ignored the majority view expressed - so I
said so

I just googled this thread and fail to see a "majority view" that
Irfanview should be considered freeware. Maybe there were replies with
a different subject line. This particular thread though only holds yours
and one others view that Irfanview is freeware. Susan and one other
clearly indicate that they do not consider it freeware. 2 for 2. There
is one other that through their hateful remarks indicate they disagree
with Susans opinion and there is one from another regular that indicates
that may agree with Susan. 3 for 3.

Again, maybe I'm missing some replies with a different subject line.

In any case it looks to me that very few people have actually idicated
their opinion.

The PL is quite a bit more restrictive than my personal views of what
qualifies as true freeware. I tend to be a bit more liberal. This
particular instance, I'm inclined to accept Irfanview as true freeware
as the option to include the bundled software is by default not
selected. I do however understand others opinion that it is not.

The point of the thread though was to collect the groups opinion, and
this has failed as far as I can see. As far as I'm concerned, I don't
see any clear "majority view" as not enough people have have expressed
it.
 
M

Mel

Again, maybe I'm missing some replies with a different subject line.
You certainly are!

FYI: The majority view was "Freeware"!

FYI: The pricelesswarehome view was "Adware"!
 
N

Nomen Nescio

| There are non-monetary costs when an author bundles extraneous software
| with an app. IrfanView is not Freeware.

I have to apologize to you. See, all this time I thought you was just
a stupid twit. Now I can see that you are a complete ****ing moron.
Sorry that I got it wrong.
 
F

Fritz Wuehler

| There are non-monetary costs when an author bundles extraneous software
| with an app. IrfanView is not Freeware.

I have to apologize to you. See, all this time I thought you was just
a stupid twit. Now I can see that you are a complete ****ing moron.
Sorry that I got it wrong.
 
C

Craig

Fritz said:
| There are non-monetary costs when an author bundles extraneous software
| with an app. IrfanView is not Freeware.

I have to apologize to you.

It's good to apologize.

<grin>

-Sparky
 
B

Bjorn Simonsen

Alastair Smeaton wrote in
I would not want your job Susan, but in this case, you seemed to
impose your own views over those I saw expressed in this thread

Trying uphold some leve of consistency - and hereunder questioning the
various replies that fails to address or clearly answer the issue(s)
she raised along these lines (of consistency) - is not the same as
"imposing ones views" as such. It is more like trying to undress a
possible "freeware-imposter". On the other hand, by expressing our
views in a dialog here - we all "impose our views" on others in some
form or another. And we all...oh well..never mind...enough said :)

All the best,
Bjorn Simonsen
 
A

Alastair Smeaton

Alastair Smeaton wrote in


Trying uphold some leve of consistency - and hereunder questioning the
various replies that fails to address or clearly answer the issue(s)
she raised along these lines (of consistency) - is not the same as
"imposing ones views" as such. It is more like trying to undress a
possible "freeware-imposter". On the other hand, by expressing our
views in a dialog here - we all "impose our views" on others in some
form or another. And we all...oh well..never mind...enough said :)

All the best,
Bjorn Simonsen

Thanks Bjorn - but I prefer to go with the view expressed elsewhere in
another thread - just let people vote - they will vote on the basis of
functionality of Irfanview as well as the license
 
B

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson

After some posts back and forth between Susan and me I put the *ware
status of FreePdfXP to the group:

License:
(Copied from accompanied FreePdfen.pdf; the same can be found in German
on http://freepdfxp.de/fpxplizenz.htm)

| FreePDF XP license
| · FreePDF XP is a Freeware (also for companies).
| · the author is not responsible for possibly Damage, which is caused
| by a use of FreePDF.
| · the author does his best to release virus-free Software. The author is
| not responsible however for damage, through possibly Virus infections.
| · for the software there is no email support for free.
| · you receive support to FreePDF XP in the manual and under
| http://shbox.de/english.htm.
| · label names used in the software are own of there owners.
| · FreePDF XP may not be sold. On booklet CD's of magazines FreePDF XP
| can be delivered.
| · The Program Redmon is licensed by the Aladdin Free Public License
| · author of FreePDF XP is Stefan Heinz

The email support restriction is explained right thereafter:

| In the past i have had a large amount of emails asking questions,
| that already has been written in the Manual. Therefore, if you like
| to get email support from me, i will like to get a donate within the
| range of 10 Euro/US$.

Further explanation is given in the About dialog inside the program:

| FreePDF XP is freeware for private and non-private use (see license).
|
| Author of FreePDF XP is Stefan Heinz.
|
| Because of my limited time, I do not give email support for FreePDF XP.
| Instead, I have made the following free resources available:
|
| - The FreePDF XP Users Manual (see menu '?')
| - The FreePDF Administrators Manual at http://shbox.de/FreePDFXPAdmin.pdf
| - The (German) homepage of FreePDF http://shbox.de - any english-speaking
| Page for FreePDF is welcome!
|
| If you would like to email me for support, please send a donation
| within the range of 10 EUR/USD.

Some explanations given in German (on the homepage) are even more
explicit (http://freepdfxp.de/fpxplizenz.htm again - Stefan Heinz
isn't too skilled translating his sentiments into English):

| In der Vergangenheit habe ich mehr Zeit mit dem beantworten von Emails
| als mit Programmieren zugebracht. Häufig werden mir dabei Fragen
| gestellt, die schon in der FAQ bzw dem Handbuch beantwortet sind.
|
| Wenn Sie dennoch per Email Hilfe von mir erwarten, werde ich Sie um eine
| Spende in der Größenordnung von 10 Euro / US$ bitten. Das schließt
| freilich nicht ein, dass ich Ihr Problem auch lösen kann bzw. eine
| gewünschte Änderung tatsächlich einbaue.

English translation:
|E> In the past I spent more time answering emails than programming.
|E> Continually, questions have been asked which are already answered
|E> inside the FAQ and the manual.
|E>
|E> If you nevertheless expect help per email from me, then I shall
|E> ask you for a donation of about 10 ¤ / US$. That doesn't ensure
|E> the result of a solution for your problem or the implemantation
|E> of your desired changes, though.

The 'quarrel' which arose between Susan and me is the status of
FreePdfXP - Freeware or Donationware.

In my opinion, the program is freeware:
- No request for donation *regarding the program* can be found
- He even offers free support for the program (FAQ, manual, and a
free Web Forum, where he can pick the difficult questions to
answer, while the others are dealt by the community - or left
alone if stupid enough)
- Exceeding this, he did free email support for some time; you read
about the results above...
- He decided, there was need for a stopper to that flood. He could
have discontinued answering emails at all.

*** The program would still count as freeware for Susan...

- But no. He decided to just create a hurdle. High enough to repel
SPAM-like nuisances, but low enough for those thinking the free
support paths either beyond their selves or needing 'professional'
support certification (e.g. companies)
- It seems obvious to me that Stefan couldn't care less about the amount
of money dripping in on his PayPal account. He just enjoys a bit more
free time for the development of the program or real life. Maybe
I'm wrong on this. But *not* telling people that a donation for
the program would be welcome is surely *not* a method getting rich...

*** The presence of the donation link makes it Donationware to Susan...

.... although the purpose of the link is explicitly explained as
'for email support'. Something, which has - IMHO - *nothing* to
do with the program itself.

Opinions?
BeAr
 
M

Mikey S.

The PROGRAM is
FREEWARE.

MLC said:
martedì 18 ottobre 2005 B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson ha scritto:


The program is freeware, no doubt by me.
--
Maria Luisa C - 19/10/2005 0.08.40
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with
themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. Susan Ertz
-
 
N

Nicolaas Hawkins

The PROGRAM is FREEWARE.

Mikey, your argument(?) is weakened when you shout, not strengthened..

--
Regards,
Nicolaas.


.... It is not what a teenager knows that bothers hir parents, it is how
s/he found out.
 
T

TedK

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson said:
After some posts back and forth between Susan and me I put the *ware
status of FreePdfXP to the group:

License:
(Copied from accompanied FreePdfen.pdf; the same can be found in German
on http://freepdfxp.de/fpxplizenz.htm)

| FreePDF XP license
| · FreePDF XP is a Freeware (also for companies).
| · the author is not responsible for possibly Damage, which is caused
| by a use of FreePDF.
| · the author does his best to release virus-free Software. The author is
| not responsible however for damage, through possibly Virus infections.
| · for the software there is no email support for free.
| · you receive support to FreePDF XP in the manual and under
| http://shbox.de/english.htm.
| · label names used in the software are own of there owners.
| · FreePDF XP may not be sold. On booklet CD's of magazines FreePDF XP
| can be delivered.
| · The Program Redmon is licensed by the Aladdin Free Public License
| · author of FreePDF XP is Stefan Heinz

The email support restriction is explained right thereafter:

| In the past i have had a large amount of emails asking questions,
| that already has been written in the Manual. Therefore, if you like
| to get email support from me, i will like to get a donate within the
| range of 10 Euro/US$.

Further explanation is given in the About dialog inside the program:

| FreePDF XP is freeware for private and non-private use (see license).
|
| Author of FreePDF XP is Stefan Heinz.
|
| Because of my limited time, I do not give email support for FreePDF XP.
| Instead, I have made the following free resources available:
|
| - The FreePDF XP Users Manual (see menu '?')
| - The FreePDF Administrators Manual at http://shbox.de/FreePDFXPAdmin.pdf
| - The (German) homepage of FreePDF http://shbox.de - any english-speaking
| Page for FreePDF is welcome!
|
| If you would like to email me for support, please send a donation
| within the range of 10 EUR/USD.

Some explanations given in German (on the homepage) are even more
explicit (http://freepdfxp.de/fpxplizenz.htm again - Stefan Heinz
isn't too skilled translating his sentiments into English):

| In der Vergangenheit habe ich mehr Zeit mit dem beantworten von Emails
| als mit Programmieren zugebracht. Häufig werden mir dabei Fragen
| gestellt, die schon in der FAQ bzw dem Handbuch beantwortet sind.
|
| Wenn Sie dennoch per Email Hilfe von mir erwarten, werde ich Sie um eine
| Spende in der Größenordnung von 10 Euro / US$ bitten. Das schließt
| freilich nicht ein, dass ich Ihr Problem auch lösen kann bzw. eine
| gewünschte Änderung tatsächlich einbaue.

English translation:
|E> In the past I spent more time answering emails than programming.
|E> Continually, questions have been asked which are already answered
|E> inside the FAQ and the manual.
|E>
|E> If you nevertheless expect help per email from me, then I shall
|E> ask you for a donation of about 10 ¤ / US$. That doesn't ensure
|E> the result of a solution for your problem or the implemantation
|E> of your desired changes, though.

The 'quarrel' which arose between Susan and me is the status of
FreePdfXP - Freeware or Donationware.

In my opinion, the program is freeware:
- No request for donation *regarding the program* can be found
- He even offers free support for the program (FAQ, manual, and a
free Web Forum, where he can pick the difficult questions to
answer, while the others are dealt by the community - or left
alone if stupid enough)
- Exceeding this, he did free email support for some time; you read
about the results above...
- He decided, there was need for a stopper to that flood. He could
have discontinued answering emails at all.

*** The program would still count as freeware for Susan...

- But no. He decided to just create a hurdle. High enough to repel
SPAM-like nuisances, but low enough for those thinking the free
support paths either beyond their selves or needing 'professional'
support certification (e.g. companies)
- It seems obvious to me that Stefan couldn't care less about the amount
of money dripping in on his PayPal account. He just enjoys a bit more
free time for the development of the program or real life. Maybe
I'm wrong on this. But *not* telling people that a donation for
the program would be welcome is surely *not* a method getting rich...

*** The presence of the donation link makes it Donationware to Susan...

.... although the purpose of the link is explicitly explained as
'for email support'. Something, which has - IMHO - *nothing* to
do with the program itself.

Opinions?
BeAr
It seems clear from the site that the program is freeware. However, if
one wanted information from the author he requests a fee for that service.

One translation of the relevant paragraph (as noted in BeAr's comments):

If you nevertheless expect assistance of me by email, I will ask
you for a donation in the order of magnitude of 10 euro/USS. That does
not include certainly that I can also solve your problem and/or a
desired change actually insert.

TedK
 
A

Ash

It seems clear from the site that the program is freeware. However, if
one wanted information from the author he requests a fee for that service.

One translation of the relevant paragraph (as noted in BeAr's comments):

If you nevertheless expect assistance of me by email, I will ask
you for a donation in the order of magnitude of 10 euro/USS. That does
not include certainly that I can also solve your problem and/or a
desired change actually insert.

TedK


The requirements to get support seem to me very fair and equitable. A mass of
freeware programs that I've used make it quite clear that support is not
available - Regardless we don't hesitate to say that the software is freeware!
Likewise Shareware is often offered as Freeware to everyone when the author
withdraws ongoing support, thinks Gravity Newsreader....

Support costs ! The author wrote you a free program, the author does not owe
anyone support. If you don't like it, move on to other Freeware you find
simpler to use or better documented.

Our pre-Internet shareware and freeware library covered all costs and sent discs
around the world. Sometimes users wanted support where a software author had
moved on to other interests. If we were familiar with the software we would
offer paid consultancy. Where's the problem if the auther does the same?


Ash
 
S

Susan Bugher

TedK said:
One translation of the relevant paragraph (as noted in BeAr's comments):

If you nevertheless expect assistance of me by email, I will ask
you for a donation in the order of magnitude of 10 euro/USS. That does
not include certainly that I can also solve your problem and/or a
desired change actually insert.

erm. . . actually that paragraph is NOT relevant. ;)

Let's begin at the beginning - with ACF's definition of Freeware:

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/WareGlossary.php

"Freeware: Legally obtainable software that you may use at no cost,
monetary or otherwise, for as long as you wish."

"monetary or otherwise" - it's the "otherwise" part that concerns us
here. More definitions:

"Donationware: monetary contribution requested (optional)"

"Requestware: you are asked to do something. Examples: send a postcard
or email to the software author, perform a good deed, make a
contribution to charity "

ANY non-monetary cost, however minor, means an app is NOT Freeware.

How does this relate to the program under discussion?

There is a donation button on the author's download page:

http://shbox.de/fpx732.htm

The adjacent text says: "Donation (Paypal)" That's all it says. As far
as I can tell the author *will* accept donations if they are offered.
That makes the app Donationware per out current Donationware definition.

If the group wishes to revise the ACF definition of Donationware they
can do so - but that will not make this program Freeware. If the group
wishes to revise the ACF definition of Freeware they can do so. Until
that happens this app is NOT Freeware.

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
B

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson

If the group wishes to revise the ACF definition of Donationware they
can do so - but that will not make this program Freeware. If the group
wishes to revise the ACF definition of Freeware they can do so. Until
that happens this app is NOT Freeware.

Three days since the last post to the subject. Seems, it's time to
sum up:

Only few follow-ups. Some clearly expressing accordance with my POV.
None in favorite of yours, though. Not enough for further asking you
to set the PW entry aright. But I feel reassured in my classification
of the program.

You refer to the presence of a donation button to back up your position.
But you need to take into account that Stefan explicitly encourages
other distribution channels. All people getting the program that way
could *never* come to your assessment. You neglect the clearly expressed
donation-request purpose. (Which aims to an *additional* service and
not to the program. Okay, I'm repeating myself over and over again...)

Another point you brought up is the lack of a clear statement on the
PayPal page. I'd rather say: it is short. After having written when
and why to donate on several places at great length Stefan just didn't
start to tell the tale, again. The more so, as he were in need to do
that in English. - A language he doesn't seem to speak himself (too
well??).

Possible donations to the *program* (instead of the special support)
'by accident' is not an argument I can accept as 'pro Donationware'.
All sane people check what amount to donate and if they'll get sth.
out of this. This way they come across the appropriate paragraphs.

However. Looking at the PW Nominations it doesn't seem a matter of
importance, at all. No 'Second' in view. So FreePdfXP will possibly
fail even to be eligible for vote... Unjust. It *is* a very good
freeware(!!) ;-) tool.

BeAr
 

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