[PL] PL2006 Ware Issues

S

Susan Bugher

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson said:
'Serious' seems a bit exaggerated.

True enough - I meant *some* discussion. ;)

OTOH some people in the newsgroup *claim* they take this sort of thing
very seriously:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....t:in+insubject:a.c.f.?&hl=en#f33451b0b50b3610

Poll: Should adware be discussed here in a.c.f.?
Messages 1 - 10 of 138

and that was a follow-up to another long thread.

ISTM if you're going to talk the talk you should walk the walk.

Dick_Hazeleger was very good at pointing out the gap between what we
*say* about wares and our real life *non-application* of the ware
definitions. Dick left the group after the Adware poll (he said he no
longer felt welcome here). IMO that's a shame.

Susan
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B

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson

On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 17:00:09 -0400, Susan Bugher wrote:

[Adware poll]
and that was a follow-up to another long thread.

ISTM if you're going to talk the talk you should walk the walk.

Dick_Hazeleger was very good at pointing out the gap between what we
*say* about wares and our real life *non-application* of the ware
definitions. Dick left the group after the Adware poll (he said he no
longer felt welcome here). IMO that's a shame.

And as a direct follow up to your posting I supported your additional
vote 'G. off-topic - brief mention sometimes okay.' (Logged by Google
as position 31 of that thread.) I voted those mainly to show my
discomfort with all presented alternatives. Your extra-choice came
closest to my own understanding.

But I know now why I felt discomforting at the very moment of posting:
It is too absolut; more than real life permits.

Even my own definition proposals (for instance within the other thread
you mentioned) seem a bit too strict for IrfanView. But the reason of
that lies in the mis-fitting classification itself. It's not Adware
but... (hm again I only can come up with the not-so-good catchword)
Bundleware. Both parts are free programs. One I like very much. The
other belongs to a service I detest. But it still is a free software
which many out there *desire*.

Of course there *is* an advertising effect for eBay. (Otherwise I
wouldn't have named it Adware in August.) But it is minimal.

BeAr
 
S

Susan Bugher

[Adware poll]
Even my own definition proposals (for instance within the other thread
you mentioned) seem a bit too strict for IrfanView. But the reason of
that lies in the mis-fitting classification itself. It's not Adware
but... (hm again I only can come up with the not-so-good catchword)
Bundleware. Both parts are free programs. One I like very much. The
other belongs to a service I detest. But it still is a free software
which many out there *desire*.

Of course there *is* an advertising effect for eBay. (Otherwise I
wouldn't have named it Adware in August.) But it is minimal.

The PL rules prohibiting certain wares are intended to weed out the
worst offenders - the easy calls. Everything that is not specifically
prohibited is NOT necessarily okay.

ATM we don't have a "rule" prohibiting apps that are bundled with other
software but, like you, I'm not happy to see extraneous software
included with IrfanView. If the goal of the PL is to showcase the best
software that's free of monetary cost IrfanView is a prime candidate. If
the goal is to showcase the best FREEWARE I think IrfanView falls short.

Earlier in this thread Demetris posted:

<q>
HOWEVER, there MAY be an issue of spyware when any of these options is
turned on: the queries to eBay are not direct but go through the site of
webtip media GmbH (http://www.webtip.ch/). I don't know if webtip set
any cookies (or what kind of cookies they set), and what they do with
the data they collect by the redirections. (Only webtip themselves can
know that.)

In a short statement on their site they claim that they collect only
aggregate data, not individual information, and that they do not give
any data to third parties. Click on Datenschutz on the link provided above.

Interestingly, there was an outcry last November when it came out that
German localizations of Firefox did not send eBay queries directly to
eBay, but redirected them via the same service, webtip. (That's why the
webtip statement mentions Firefox). This was changed quickly back to
direct queries.

Firefox: eBay-Suche mit Umleitung:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/53308

Firefox.de in adware rumpus:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/23/firefox_adware_rumpus/
</q>

Could some of our resident experts please speak up. I'd like to know if
Spyware is a valid concern.

Susan
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B

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson

On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 13:25:09 -0400, Susan Bugher wrote:

[eBay Searchbar bundled with IrfanView 3.92 an newer]
Could some of our resident experts please speak up. I'd like to know if
Spyware is a valid concern.

Okay. At last your persistence made me check this thing. The following
applies to v3.97:

- The eBay Toolbar option installs EbaySrch.dll into an Ebay subfolder
of the IrfanView directory; in addition IrfanView gets an Edit Box
and a Submit query Button into its toolbar (you can write a string
into the Edit Box and look it up on eBay); Edit Box and Button can
later be removed via Option->Misc.3 (that doesn't uninstall the
*.dll, though)
- The Desktop shortcut / IE Toolbar option creates an eBay.htm and an
eBay.ico file into the above mentioned Ebay folder; further it
creates a desktop link to that *.htm file and it adds a button to
the IE button bar which again loads the *.htm page; in both cases
a new browser window of the *default* browser (not necessarrily
IE) will be opened

The EbaySrch.dll is packed with Aspack. If extracted, one sees that it
contains the necessary functions to connect to an intermediate server
('webtip') which counts all requests and redirects them to the real
target. Seems, a different counter is used for queries from a German
IrfanView version and for the English.

http://www.webtip.ch/cgi-bin/irfanview/tracker_qry_de.pl?
http://www.webtip.ch/cgi-bin/irfanview/tracker_qry_com.pl?

I use English localization on German Win2k and was redirected to the
second tracker on a test.

At the moment only the German redirection seems to work. It redirects
again to an 'Adfarm' and after that opens the eBay searchpage with
the query result.

The same goes with the desktop link and the IE button. They first
connect to Webtip and get redirected. The only difference is the
target: the eBay homepage instead of the search page.

In either case (searchbar, desktop link/IE button) no hidden (maybe
private) information is sent. (As I didn't check in-depth, there is
a - minimal - chance left, that I missed something. But it would
need to use separate channels and stealth techniques. ;-) )

And of course all information usually visible on browsing is visible
here, too.

I checked the installation file, the IrfanView directory and the
Win2k folder with virus scanners using the latest deinition files
(F-Prot, McAfee, AVP). None of them complained. Neither did Adaware
on a smart system check and on a special check into the IrfanView
directory.

After that I submitted EbaySrch.dll to:

http://www.virustotal.com
http://virusscan.jotti.org

On the first Fortinet claimed it 'suspicious'. On the second even
Fortinet didn't find anything. Both servers use different versions
of the definition files, obviously.

I don't regard Fortinet a reference. It's more likely they have
a false positive on a file available (and causing unease) for
months, than all other miss it...

So what's going on? There's one problematic point: Webtip (and the
Adfarm redirection, coming to this). Let's have a look into the
privacy statements of Webtip:

| Datenschutz-Erklärung
[...]
Some general declarations about usage (only with the best of the
user in mind, no passing on of personal data to third party, ...).
Nothing special.
| Info:
That's interesting:
| Bei der eBay-Integration im Rahmen des Browsers Firefox werden keine IPs
| oder Suchanfragen gespeichert, noch an Dritte weitergegeben. Es wird
| lediglich die Anzahl der dort getätigten Suchanfragen statistisch
| erfasst.
Regarding the eBay search add-on of the Firefox browser they claim only
to count the accesses. No storage of IPs, no passing on to third party.

I *believe* (but don't know), they handle requests from the IrfanView
bar (and from the desktop link / IE button) the same way. Even if they
don't: As long as one has dynamic IP (most private users do) and one
doesn't permit Webtip to aquire personal information out of the
request itself (or on an independent path), Webtip could store the IP
and wouldn't be any wiser. Ebay itself might link the question to a
person if one logs into eBay while having still the same IP. But that's
also the case if one opens the eBay search page manually.

I don't know which rule the Adfarm plays. But from a quick check, ISTM
that this is a 'normal' eBay function. Every time one opens an eBay
page the Adfarm will be contacted. (Perhaps to place Ads onto the newly
opened eBay page...)

I hope that clarifies some questions. I'll clean my system now. The
eBay option is, IMHO, no security risk. But it sure is no functionality
I need or like.

BeAr
 
B

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:35:01 +0200, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:

[eBay Searchbar bundled with IrfanView 3.92 an newer]

Forgot to mention: Webtip doesn't set a cookie. But the Adfarm (that's
some 'service' of www.mediaplex.com) does. I re-checked: Although eBay
loads several Ads itself, the Mediaplex connection only sits inbetween
Webtip and eBay. :-(

BeAr
 
S

Susan Bugher

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson said:
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 13:25:09 -0400, Susan Bugher wrote:

[eBay Searchbar bundled with IrfanView 3.92 an newer]
Could some of our resident experts please speak up. I'd like to know if
Spyware is a valid concern.

Okay. At last your persistence made me check this thing. The following
applies to v3.97:
I hope that clarifies some questions. I'll clean my system now. The
eBay option is, IMHO, no security risk. But it sure is no functionality
I need or like.

Thank you BeAr. :) That lays the major concerns to rest. IMO IrfanView
is not Freeware and Bundleware is not in the Ware Glossary.

That means the ware description is:

(free for personal use/non-commercial use) Notes: bundled with eBay
Searchbar and eBay Toolbar (installation is optional)

Susan
--
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B

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson

That means the ware description is:

(free for personal use/non-commercial use) Notes: bundled with eBay
Searchbar and eBay Toolbar (installation is optional)

Searchbar and Toolbar are just 2 names for the same thing. Btw.: Before
the test I suspected an installation of an ActiveX BHO (browser helper
object). That's the way the 'real' eBay toolbar works, which can be
found on their homepage. (They use the infamous ctor technology.)

But all 3 IrfanView solutions are only a span length beyond 'Copy
one of these links from the readme.txt into the address field of
your browser and hit Enter.' As simple as one can get this.

To your suggestion:
Maybe: 'Bundled with eBay access. Last freeware version: 3.91'?
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to look up a download for
the older version. Someone else?

BeAr
 
B

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:00:34 +1000, miskairal wrote:

[Old IrfanView version download request]
I'm not familiar with any of these sites.
These are links to the page not the download.
[3 links snipped]

Thanks for your effort! But all 3 sites link back to the TU Wien server.
And this site only carries the latest version, generally...

BeAr
 
S

Steven Burn

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson said:
Thanks a lot for your download link! Am I right to assume you'll
keep this online as long as newer versions are bundled with eBay
crap? Then this would be a perfect link to be added to the PW
program description.

Thanks again for providing that download!

Aslong as Irfanview ceases to be freeware, it will stay online at the URL's
referenced ;o)

--
Regards

Steven Burn
Ur I.T. Mate Group
www.it-mate.co.uk

Keeping it FREE!
 
S

Susan Bugher

As one doesn't need to install the adware it remains freeware.

"Freeware: Legally obtainable software that you may use at no cost,
monetary or otherwise, for as long as you wish."

There are non-monetary costs when an author bundles extraneous software
with an app. IrfanView is not Freeware.

Susan
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A

Alastair Smeaton

"Freeware: Legally obtainable software that you may use at no cost,
monetary or otherwise, for as long as you wish."

There are non-monetary costs when an author bundles extraneous software
with an app. IrfanView is not Freeware.

Susan

yes it is, IMO - it seems that we need a simple vote, as you have
raised this again - so mine is for freeware - most people in this
thread seem to view irfanview as freeware

If you dont install the optional extra, it meets the definition above
 
S

Susan Bugher

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson said:
Thanks a lot for your download link! Am I right to assume you'll
keep this online as long as newer versions are bundled with eBay
crap? Then this would be a perfect link to be added to the PW
program description.

There's no room. :( I'll add a separate LFW (v 3.91) description for
IrfanView to the ACF database and link that to Steven's web site.

The current description looks like this:

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/P_programs.php#0391-PW

IrfanView
Company: -- Author: Irfan Skiljan
(free for personal use/non-commercial use) NOTES: bundled with eBay
Searchbar/Toolbar (installation is optional)
Windows OS: Windows OS: Windows 95/98/ME/NT/2000/XP NOTES: A no install
version is available.
Languages: English; German; language packs for other languages
Description: The first graphic viewer with Multiple (animated) GIF
support, one of the first graphic viewers with Multipage TIFF support
and the first graphic viewer with Multiple ICO support. Features:
Thumbnails, Preview, Drag and Drop Support, fast Directory View (fast
moving through directory), Print Support, Scan (TWAIN) Support,
Slideshow, Batch conversion, change the color depth, audio CD player,
Capturing, Cut/Crop, Effects (Blur, Sharpen etc.) and many many more ...
other features: Many supported file formats, Thumbnail/preview option,
Slideshow (save slideshow as EXE/SCR or burn it to CD), Drag and drop
support, Batch conversion (with image processing), Email option,
Multimedia player, Print option, Change color depth, Scan (batch scan)
support, Cut/crop, IPTC editing, Effects (Sharpen, Blur, Photoshop
filter factory), Capturing, Extract icons from EXE/DLL/ICLs, Lossless
JPG rotation, Many hotkeys, Many command line options, Many plugins,
Only one EXE-File, no DLLs, No registry changes without user
action/permission! and many more
Home page:
http://www.irfanview.com/
Mirror site:
http://irfanview.tuwien.ac.at/
download page v 3.97 (2005-04-22) [ iview397.exe (875 KB) English] [
iview397.zip (880 KB) English] [ irfanview_plugins_397.exe (4652 KB)
English]
http://www.irfanview.com/download_sites.htm
(desc. rev.: 2005-10-10)
Thanks again for providing that download!

Second that. :) Steven, I have the plug-ins for v 3.91
(IrfanView-all_plugins.exe). I can email or upload the file if you would
like to offer that download too.

Susan
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J

John Fitzsimons

John Fitzsimons wrote:
"Freeware: Legally obtainable software that you may use at no cost,
monetary or otherwise, for as long as you wish."
There are non-monetary costs when an author bundles extraneous software
with an app. IrfanView is not Freeware.

There is no "cost" in NOT selecting to install additional software
when installing IrfanView.

However, as you appear to have made up your mind about this
then there is no point discussing it. I see that you have ignored
Alastair's suggestion. You are the one doing the PL list and what
you say goes.

You can consider clicking a "do not install" button some sort of great
"cost". That is fine by me.

I just wish that more programs that bundled extra, unwanted additions,
followed IrfanView's lead. Giving end users the choice.

IrfanView should be congratulated for giving people the option.
I would much rather that than the program going shareware, or
commercial.

Regards, John.
--
****************************************************
,-._|\ (A.C.F FAQ) http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html
/ Oz \ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
\_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
v http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/
 
A

Alastair Smeaton

There is no "cost" in NOT selecting to install additional software
when installing IrfanView.

However, as you appear to have made up your mind about this
then there is no point discussing it. I see that you have ignored
Alastair's suggestion. You are the one doing the PL list and what
you say goes.

not sure about this - one of the reasons I contribute less to this
group than I have done before is the infighting - and I dislike
Susan's approach to this role at times - especially around the big
fights around who owned pricelessware etc.

I would not want your job Susan, but in this case, you seemed to
impose your own views over those I saw expressed in this thread -
irfanview is good, free, freeware cos it gives you a choice - not open
source, but I think the majority of users here know enough to take
irfanview , install it, and not be screwed.

Probably should have spoken up before, but what the hell :)

IRFANVIEW IS FREEWARE, GODD, AND HAS MY SUPPORT FOR P-WARE !!!

There, enough shouting :)
 

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