XP Home rebooting randomly

[Janice]

My son's PC has started to reboot randomly. I took it into my local PC store
to have it checked out. They tell me that they have checked out the memory,
video card, hard drive, virus checking etc but could find nothing. In the
three days they tested it, it did not reboot once! However I would have to
say that it happens when my son is doing something, not just the PC sitting
there doing nothing.

So I take it home, connect it up and it crashes just as MSN is automatically
signing in. I'm told it must be a piece of hardware that I'm using at home.
However all it's connected to is a monitor, cordless keyboard & mouse, and a
LAN cable.

Event viewer shows up these problems - both mentioned to the PC store but
nothing done about them.

Event Type: Information

Event Source: Save Dump

Event Category: None

Event ID: 1001

Date: 17/06/2004

Time: 19:47:29

User: N/A

Computer: GRAHAM

Description:

The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck. The bugcheck was:
0x0000007f(0x0000000d, 0x00000000, 0x00000000, 0x00000000). A dump was saved
in: D:\WINDOWS\Minidump\Mini061704-03.dmp.



For more information, see Help and Support Center at
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.



Event Type: Error

Event Source: atapi

Event Category: None

Event ID: 5

Date: 17/06/2004

Time: 19:45:34

User: N/A

Computer: GRAHAM

Description:

A parity error was detected on \Device\Ide\IdePort1.



For more information, see Help and Support Center at
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.

Data:

0000: 0f 06 10 00 01 00 64 00 ......d.

0008: 00 00 00 00 05 00 04 c0 .......À

0010: 03 00 00 80 00 00 00 00 ...?....

0018: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........

0020: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........

0028: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........

0030: 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 ........



Event Type: Error

Event Source: Disk

Event Category: None

Event ID: 11

Date: 17/06/2004

Time: 21:35:35

User: N/A

Computer: GRAHAM

Description:

The driver detected a controller error on \Device\Harddisk1\D.



For more information, see Help and Support Center at
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.

Data:

0000: 03 00 68 00 01 00 b6 00 ..h...¶.

0008: 00 00 00 00 0b 00 04 c0 .......À

0010: 01 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........

0018: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........

0020: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........

0028: a8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ¨.......

0030: ff ff ff ff 02 00 00 00 ÿÿÿÿ....

0038: 40 00 00 8f 02 00 00 00 @......

0040: 00 20 0a 12 40 03 20 00 . ..@. .

0048: 00 00 00 00 0a 00 00 00 ........

0050: 00 20 37 82 78 f9 3c 82 . 7,xù<,

0058: 00 00 00 00 70 6e 3d 82 ....pn=,

0060: 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........

0068: 28 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 (.......

0070: 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........

0078: f0 00 04 00 00 00 00 0b ð.......

0080: 00 00 00 00 08 03 00 00 ........

0088: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........





I've also got a similar error on "atapi" for the same IDE port. I've changed
the IDE cable but that didn't help.







This is another I also saved before taking the PC in.



Event Type: Error

Event Source: System Error

Event Category: (102)

Event ID: 1003

Date: 15/06/2004

Time: 08:01:18

User: N/A

Computer: GRAHAM

Description:

Error code 1000008e, parameter1 c0000005, parameter2 bf877e1b,
parameter3f223f818, parameter4 00000000.



For more information, see Help and Support Center at
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.

Data:

0000: 53 79 73 74 65 6d 20 45 System E

0008: 72 72 6f 72 20 20 45 72 rror Er

0010: 72 6f 72 20 63 6f 64 65 ror code

0018: 20 31 30 30 30 30 30 38 1000008

0020: 65 20 20 50 61 72 61 6d e Param

0028: 65 74 65 72 73 20 63 30 eters c0

0030: 30 30 30 30 30 35 2c 20 000005,

0038: 62 66 38 37 37 65 31 62 bf877e1b

0040: 2c 20 66 32 32 33 66 38 , f223f8

0048: 31 38 2c 20 30 30 30 30 18, 0000

0050: 30 30 30 30 0000



Is it hardware related or software?



Janice

 

[WinGuy]

Hi, Janice.
To me, it does sound like some sort of hardware related problem instead of a
operating system software problem. The key to part of the diagnosis is your
observation that the rebooting doesn't occur unless the computer is doing
something more than "just sitting there". This sounds like a sudden power
off that is being initiated by the power supply electronics or the CPU
circuitry itself that is instructing the power supply to shut down.

Did you give that shop your wireless keyboard/mouse to use during their
testing? If not, try experimenting with using cheap "standard" substitutes;
individual wired keyboard and mouse (nice to have around anyway, just in
case of a coffee accident!)

How about internal dust? Does the fan on the power supply appear to have a
thick coating of dust? If so then so do its internal parts, and perhaps the
entire interior of the computer. Dust is a heat insulator, heat will then
accumulate on individual circuit board components and that is not good at
all. If dust has accumulated, carefully brush things in the interior of the
computer case and vacuum it, and just replace the power supply as a
precaution. While in there, make sure all plug-in cards are firmly seated as
well as any socketed components on the motherboard or on individual plug-in
cards (important: remove the wall socket cord before pressing on things that
might flex the motherboard and cause it to short to the bare metal case that
is behind it!) Dust or smoke residue will also harm floppy disk and CD
drives, over time, because it accumulates.

More than likely, though, I'd suspect the power supply itself has become
marginal and perhaps heat sensitive, or its overall power capacity is
insufficient for the hardware it is asked to support. Most are not that
difficult to physically replace, and are readily available at big places
that sell computers. If you replace the PS then go for one with more power
capacity than the one you now have. Around 350 watts maximum capacity is
usually sufficient for today's computers.

Some BIOS chips support temperature and some also support fan speed
reporting; if yours does then boot into BIOS and look for power voltage
reports that fluctuate out of tolerance (most are only +/- 10% tolerance).
Try opening and closing CD drive doors while observing the voltage report.
Fans should only make a sound of moving air, never be squeaky or make other
sounds, such sounds are sure indicators of impending failure or failure that
occurs as they heat up (bad bearings). Bad fans can draw very excessive
power supply requirements.

Another but more rare possibility is the white (or sometimes black) thick
conductive goo that conducts heat away from the CPU to the heat sink that
the CPU fan is mounted on. After a few years it may dry and become a heat
insulator instead of a heat conductor! This is a common problem with
desktops, and even more so with laptops. Then, when the CPU is unusually
busy the CPU heats up rapidly and excessively and it causes the power supply
to shut down as a safety precaution. Removing the old goo and replacing it
might help (it is not necessary to remove the CPU chip itself, just the fan
and heat sink that sits on top of it, to clean off the old goo and replace
it -- get the "heat sink compound" goo from any good electronics supply
store, probably even available from a nearby Radio Shack).

Be sure to practice anti-static-electricity precautions when ever you have
your computer case open. Most everything you could touch in there, except
for the bare metal of the case itself, can be super easily damaged by static
electricity. One zot will, at best, at least weaken a circuit board
component and shorten its life. Always have the power cord unplugged and
always touch the bare metal of the case (or wear a wrist strap that is
connected to the bare metal of the case) before touching anything to reseat
it in a socket, you don't want to flex an electrically live motherboard into
shorting against the bare metal case it is mounted on. Never touch the gold
or silver contacts of something that go into a socket, the oils on your
fingers can leave an invisible film that could cause electrical insulation
problems later due to a chemical reaction over time. Do not remove any
socketed chips, the pins might bend and trying to straighten them often
causes a pin to break off -- just press on socketed things firmly to assure
they are seated well. Heating/expanding and cooling/contraction cycles, over
time, cause socket things to "ride up" in their sockets. Ozone, unavoidably
produced by the power supply, causes an invisible chemical reaction at the
contacts level, especially between dissimilar metals, that acts as an
insulator. Carefully reseating socketed things is a good practice, every
year or so.

An even more rare possibility is a bad earth ground at the wall AC-power
socket. You can buy (or order) wall socket AC power wiring testers (usually
available from the bigger Radio Shack stores, too). Such testers have the
potential to save lives. Computers use "switching power supplies" that do
NOT function well if a bad earth ground exists, and something could
eventually self destruct because electrical surges do not get properly
dampened by a switching power supply that has a bad earth ground reference.
Also, use a "spike protector" but only at the wall socket, they are designed
to permanently short and cause a wall socket panel circuit breaker to trip
if a large power surge comes along, so putting them on an extension cord is
not a good idea as the extension cord could, in a very worst case scenario,
provide enough resistive voltage drop to keep the circuit breaker from
tripping and the extension cord might then greatly overheat and catch on
fire.

Most all of the above a good computer or general electronics repair shop can
do for you, and should do as part of diagnostics when someone complains of
sudden and unexplained shutdowns with or without a reboot (the reboot part
of the shutdown is generally a BIOS selectable function after a sudden power
off occurs).

Best wishes.

 

[Rick \Nutcase\ Rogers]

Hi,

Sounds like software. Some reading:

You Receive a "Stop 0x0000007F" Error Message or Your Computer Unexpectedly
Restarts
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=822789

Windows Stops Responding with "Stop Error 0x7F" Error Message
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=814789

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP

Associate Expert - WindowsXP Expert Zone

Windows help - www.rickrogers.org

 

[WinGuy]

Hi again.

I forgot to mention that the IDE problems being reported, while certainly
possible due to hardware things I mentioned in my previous post, could also
be pointing at a failing HDD or CD drive, or even the controller itself
(usually a motherboard thing).

If you disconnect the data (flat) cables that go to your CD drives (just
remember where they go and where the red-strip wire on them is oriented) and
then do something like a disk defragment and the computer still has problems
then it might be that the HDD is starting to fail. I have seen, to my great
astonishment, a failed CD drive bug up the controller chip so badly (power
draw, I guess) that the HDD failed in result - although that was a recent
service, it's the first time I've ever seen a HDD fail because of a CD drive
problem. It's very unlikely that both a HDD and a CD drive would go bad at
the same time. It is slightly more likely that a controller chip on the
motherboard could be going bad and maybe has become heat sensitive. It is
highly likely that the power supply is failing.

I still don't think that the numerous different devices (both HDD & CD)
being reported as having problems relates to software causing a reboot. I
think the root problem is hardware. I hope it's not the controller chip that
is going bad.

Again, the importnat point is that it doesn't happen at system idle, it
takes some sort of increased electrical load for the reboot to eventually
occur. That observation is key, if it's factual, because it almost surely
indicates an electrical problem. A bad software driver usually doesn't care
at all about device usage duty cycle time. Something causing too much
current flow might draw down an under-capacity power supply, where a
stronger power supply could stand up to it and the actual bad device would,
uh, smoke and make itself more evident - something maybe a shop should try
rather than just going out first and buying a new power supply (just in case
it's not an under rated power supply that's at fault).

The problem is sometimes difficult to diagnose, but there does appear to be
a way repeatable method to cause the failure. I really think it's hardware.

So maybe the HDD should now be put into another computer and copied to
another HDD, just in case the failure is about to get worse. That would also
rule out the HDD itself as being the problem under a high duty cycle of
usage.

 

[Janice]

Hi,

Thanks for your very detailed reply.

Over the 4/5 weeks that it's been doing this, it has only rebooted once
whilst no-one was at it - however as usual MSN was signed in.

We didn't give the shop anything but the main unit. We're now about to try
an ordinary mouse and keyboard.

I asked about dust - it's been cleaned but they didn't think it was a
problem. I'm also assuming that they checked the seating of components but I
shall have a look.

I had changed the PSU before I took it in - that was my first thought. I
bought a 350w PSU but still the problem remained.

I've been back to the shop and discussed it further. They know me well as
I've been going there for years and we're on first name terms. I've been
told that it has been thoroughly tested. Both hard drives checked and fine,
video card checked and fine, memory test run overnight and no errors. Their
recommendation is that my own hardware of mouse, keyboard or monitor could
be causing it. The LAN card and cable - unlikely as it does transfer data
OK.

This is a mystery but we'll see what the change of keyboard and mouse does.

Janice

 

[Janice]

Hi,

I'm not so sure it is software. Since first posting I tried Win 98 as I have
a dual boot system. Win 98 has very little on it as it's very rarely used.
We downloaded Win Amp and MSN Messenger - an hour later it rebooted.

Janice

 

[Janice]

Hi,

Our posts have overlapped a bit.

On the master IDE I have the main HD and a CD Writer. On the secondary IDE I
have another HD and a CD-Rom. If I read the error message correctly, it's
the secondary IDE that has the fault. I can easily disconnect both of
these - but the shop doesn't think this would cause the reboot as I'm not
accessing either of these at the time of the crash.

As I said in my overlapping post, both HD were tested and are OK. The PSU
was replaced also.

Thanks for continuing to help - I need it!

Janice

 

[WinGuy]

Hi,

Our posts have overlapped a bit.

On the master IDE I have the main HD and a CD Writer. On the secondary IDE I
have another HD and a CD-Rom. If I read the error message correctly, it's
the secondary IDE that has the fault. I can easily disconnect both of
these - but the shop doesn't think this would cause the reboot as I'm not
accessing either of these at the time of the crash.

The unit that I serviced just last week had a failed HDD. I replaced it. A
good ways into restoring the operating system the new HDD started to fail.
It turned out that one of the 2 CD drives had also failed, which I detected
by disconnecting the HDD booting to dos using a diskette and trying to
access the CD drives; one was ok, the other was not. Replaced the CD drive
too, and the unit has not been back with the problem. First time I ever saw
something on a secondary IDE cause problems, much less a failure, of a
device on the primary IDE channel. The only commonality was the controller
chip on the motherboard, my end diagnosis was the defective CD drive was
hurting the controller chip so badly that it affected the HDD too. But I'd
never seen such a thing before in my decades of service.

As I said in my overlapping post, both HD were tested and are OK. The PSU
was replaced also.

I wonder how the HDD was tested. A good "thorough" test for bad sectors
ought to be strenuous enough, as that would get the HDD plenty warm. Getting
another PSU was a good move, regardless, and certainly rules it out.
Especially if it was of a higher capacity.

I seriously doubt that an external device failure such as a monitor,
keyboard, or USB device etc. would cause IDE failures. Do you have another
computer to try them on? I guess anything is possible, but that would be
really weird because except for USB they all have their own power supplies
and the chip-level I/O would blow out if there was a sufficient short to
draw down a new PSU to the point that the unit would reboot, I'd think. If
USB drew to much power most systems will cause a warning popup notice to
appear, and that wouldn't be enough to draw down the power supply anyway.

No, this is still seeming to still be a heat related problem (is the CPU
getting too hot at your location?) or, I'm afraid, it's also starting to
look like a motherboard (probably a controller) problem. Really past time to
back up that HDD before its content gets more damages. External devices are
buffered from the computer power supply by way of integrated circuits that
can not withstand what the PSU is capable of outputting in the way of
current without blowing up with a bang, so they should not be able to cause
a reboot. No, something else seems to be at fault. Did the shop test things
streniously with the case "buttoned up" so the temperature gets warmer, or
with it open so that things inside run cooler? Did they use a heat gun to
warm chips up (but not excessively) to see if they'd fail? How about usage
of freeze spray?

Might try another graphics card, or try a graphics card if using onboard
graphics chipset. If that turns out to be it, consider getting another
computer or motherboard if you're currently using onboard graphics chip
instead of a slotted card. It has been my experience that once something
goes bad with a motherboard, it doesn't get better and the electrical
"strain" eventually starts affecting other motherboard chips even if you're
not using the functionality of the defective chip (unless the chip is
replaced, of course).

Bad physical memory is possible but I assume the shop ruled that out very
well, since it's such a common cause of problems. I also assumed that the
shop swapped memory stick locations if you have more than just one memory
stick installed.

I'm not trying to second guess the shop, just to offer up some things that
from what you've related as symptoms might be of root problem or might
warrant further testing. But unless you have more info to supply, I'm about
out of thoughts on this because I can not physically examine the unit
myself.. All I know for sure is that you still have problems after a
service, and you have publicly asked for some thoughts.

That it only has a problem at your location is, as the shop relates,
suspect. Maybe you have a bad cable, it is possible to have a short of the
power supply via the cable, since most of them have a pin that outputs at
least one PSU voltage, directly from the PSU. I doubt that an external
device itself is bad (a chip would probably blow) but a bad cable is a real
possibility. But a bad cable would almost surely not be affected by how much
activity your computer CPU is performing, so I doubt it as cause in your
case and total topic rendition of symptoms.

Do check your wall AC power outlet, properly wired and functioning 3-wire
plugs are required with computer power supplies (and they could be a life
hazard if they do not test properly). A PSU operated without a good earth
ground will allow power surges to get into the computer circuitry, and
eventually something will blow out or become weakened by such surges.

Best wishes.

 

[Janice]

Hi,

I've tried to answer your questions as you asked them.

IDE

The unit that I serviced just last week had a failed HDD. I replaced it. A
good ways into restoring the operating system the new HDD started to fail.
It turned out that one of the 2 CD drives had also failed, which I detected
by disconnecting the HDD booting to dos using a diskette and trying to
access the CD drives; one was ok, the other was not. Replaced the CD drive
too, and the unit has not been back with the problem. First time I ever saw
something on a secondary IDE cause problems, much less a failure, of a
device on the primary IDE channel. The only commonality was the controller
chip on the motherboard, my end diagnosis was the defective CD drive was
hurting the controller chip so badly that it affected the HDD too. But I'd
never seen such a thing before in my decades of service.


I wonder how the HDD was tested. A good "thorough" test for bad sectors
ought to be strenuous enough, as that would get the HDD plenty warm.

As far as I know they were tested by whatever the makers of the HDD supply
for testing? I have now disconnected the HDD on the secondary IDE - that has
taken away the "disc" and "atapi" errors. So now we'll see if it crashes
again.


Getting

another PSU was a good move, regardless, and certainly rules it out.
Especially if it was of a higher capacity.

I seriously doubt that an external device failure such as a monitor,
keyboard, or USB device etc. would cause IDE failures. Do you have another
computer to try them on?

I tried an ordinary, non-cordless keyboard and mouse on the problem system.
Still caused a crash - an 0x23 error.


I guess anything is possible, but that would be

really weird because except for USB they all have their own power supplies
and the chip-level I/O would blow out if there was a sufficient short to
draw down a new PSU to the point that the unit would reboot, I'd think. If
USB drew to much power most systems will cause a warning popup notice to
appear, and that wouldn't be enough to draw down the power supply anyway.

No, this is still seeming to still be a heat related problem (is the CPU
getting too hot at your location?) or, I'm afraid, it's also starting to
look like a motherboard (probably a controller) problem. Really past time to
back up that HDD before its content gets more damages.

I backed up all important info before taking it in.

External devices are
buffered from the computer power supply by way of integrated circuits that
can not withstand what the PSU is capable of outputting in the way of
current without blowing up with a bang, so they should not be able to cause
a reboot. No, something else seems to be at fault. Did the shop test things
streniously with the case "buttoned up" so the temperature gets warmer, or
with it open so that things inside run cooler? Did they use a heat gun to
warm chips up (but not excessively) to see if they'd fail? How about usage
of freeze spray?

This I don't know about. A heat problem was never mentioned. I'm assuming
that they at least checked the CPU fan. System temp seems to be about 63
degrees - it's an AMD XP 2000. Unless it's a build up of dust I can't see
heat being a problem as it's been in the same location for 2 years with no
problem. I'm assuming I would have been told that dust was heavy?

Might try another graphics card, or try a graphics card if using onboard
graphics chipset. If that turns out to be it, consider getting another
computer or motherboard if you're currently using onboard graphics chip
instead of a slotted card. It has been my experience that once something
goes bad with a motherboard, it doesn't get better and the electrical
"strain" eventually starts affecting other motherboard chips even if you're
not using the functionality of the defective chip (unless the chip is
replaced, of course).

I'm told that they checked the graphics card and it was fine.

Bad physical memory is possible but I assume the shop ruled that out very
well, since it's such a common cause of problems.

They ran a test overnight - no problems showed up.

I also assumed that the
shop swapped memory stick locations if you have more than just one memory
stick installed.

I've only one memory stick installed.

I'm not trying to second guess the shop, just to offer up some things that
from what you've related as symptoms might be of root problem or might
warrant further testing. But unless you have more info to supply, I'm about
out of thoughts on this because I can not physically examine the unit
myself.. All I know for sure is that you still have problems after a
service, and you have publicly asked for some thoughts.

Thank you - I'm really glad of the help. Any info I can give you?

That it only has a problem at your location is, as the shop relates,
suspect. Maybe you have a bad cable, it is possible to have a short of the
power supply via the cable, since most of them have a pin that outputs at
least one PSU voltage, directly from the PSU. I doubt that an external
device itself is bad (a chip would probably blow) but a bad cable is a real
possibility. But a bad cable would almost surely not be affected by how much
activity your computer CPU is performing, so I doubt it as cause in your
case and total topic rendition of symptoms.

I did change the power cable but it didn't help. It is also attached to an
extension power lead - I'll try changing that too.

Do check your wall AC power outlet, properly wired and functioning 3-wire
plugs are required with computer power supplies (and they could be a life
hazard if they do not test properly). A PSU operated without a good earth
ground will allow power surges to get into the computer circuitry, and
eventually something will blow out or become weakened by such surges.

Best wishes.

Once again thank you for all your suggestions.

Janice

 

[Enkidu]

The unit that I serviced just last week had a failed HDD. I replaced it. A
good ways into restoring the operating system the new HDD started to fail.
It turned out that one of the 2 CD drives had also failed, which I detected
by disconnecting the HDD booting to dos using a diskette and trying to
access the CD drives; one was ok, the other was not. Replaced the CD drive
too, and the unit has not been back with the problem. First time I ever saw
something on a secondary IDE cause problems, much less a failure, of a
device on the primary IDE channel.

Heh! Remember those Fujitsu HDDs that all failed after a short life?
One of those anywhere on a cable, master or slave, would cause any
other device on the cable to disappear or not work properly.

Cheers,

Cliff

 

[Enkidu]

I've been back to the shop and discussed it further. They know me well as
I've been going there for years and we're on first name terms. I've been
told that it has been thoroughly tested. Both hard drives checked and fine,
video card checked and fine, memory test run overnight and no errors. Their
recommendation is that my own hardware of mouse, keyboard or monitor could
be causing it. The LAN card and cable - unlikely as it does transfer data
OK.

Did they test it with the case on?

Try running a graphics intensive game eg a shoot-em-up and see if it
fails. If it does it could be over heating.

Cheers,

Cliff

 

[Janice]

Did they test it with the case on?

Try running a graphics intensive game eg a shoot-em-up and see if it
fails. If it does it could be over heating.

Cheers,

Cliff

I don't know if they had the case on or off - I'll ask them. The PC is not
used for games - in fact only Red Alert is installed and not used very much
recently.

I'm not sure about the overheating as I've had it crash within a minute of
being switched on after being off all night.

Our tests so far conclude;

It's not the mouse or keyboard - problem still there with another mouse and
keyboard.

It's not the HDD that I disconnected - problem still there. The HDD was
causing the "disk" and "atapi" errors in event viewer although it could be
accessed with no trouble.

It's not the power cable.

It's not the PSU - it was replaced and problem still there.

Monitor or LAN? Can't see it being either of these - do you?

Janice

 

[Enkidu]

I don't know if they had the case on or off - I'll ask them. The PC is not
used for games - in fact only Red Alert is installed and not used very much
recently.

I'm not sure about the overheating as I've had it crash within a minute of
being switched on after being off all night.

Our tests so far conclude;

It's not the mouse or keyboard - problem still there with another mouse and
keyboard.

It's not the HDD that I disconnected - problem still there. The HDD was
causing the "disk" and "atapi" errors in event viewer although it could be
accessed with no trouble.

It's not the power cable.

It's not the PSU - it was replaced and problem still there.

Monitor or LAN? Can't see it being either of these - do you?

I'd not conclude too readily that it isn't a particular item of
hardware causing it. Don't you know that the inherent malevolence of
inanimate objects means that they only misbehave when you aren't
watching? <grin>

Seriously a flakey piece of hardware *may* behave under test, then
show symptoms later on.

It could be a dry joint of a hairline crack on the motherboard. If it
is, you are unlikely to be able to locate it. I think that you said
that the machine was fairly old?

Cheers,

Cliff

 

[WinGuy]

Hi again, Janice.

It's not the HDD that I disconnected - problem still there. The HDD was
causing the "disk" and "atapi" errors in event viewer although it could be
accessed with no trouble.

But this is a big problem, even if not the core problem, and it is very
significant and absolutely must be eliminated because until then it is
rendering further diagnostics totally non reliable and haphazard. And it
could well be the core problem. It might be caused by a bad flat ribbon
cable flexing in the air stream from the fans, it is the common item
(besides the IDE controller chip on the motherboard) between the separate
HDD and atapi (CD drive) errors. Such a thing could lead to head slamming on
the HDD or other odd occurrences that can physically damage the HDD. If you
hear occasional tic noises, faint or loud, that's probably head slamming
during data seeks and damage has likely already occurred and the HDD device
itself might be well into a total failure stage. Try another cable (most
shops have spares galore), and if no joy then disconnect one device at a
time from the cable and observe error reports in Event Viewer. Sub out the
device discovered if you can, unless BOTH devices *individually* still
report errors with a new cable -- in which case the motherboard controller
chip is the most likely cause IMO.

More and more your diagnostics are pointing at an intermittent bad
motherboard, and perhaps one that has a consistant and demonstrable problem
with the IDE controller chip. If the chip is bad it could be affecting the
system address or data bus on the motherboard from time to time, and
definitely could cause crashes or reboots.

 

[Janice]

Hi again, Janice.

But this is a big problem, even if not the core problem, and it is very
significant and absolutely must be eliminated because until then it is
rendering further diagnostics totally non reliable and haphazard. And it
could well be the core problem. It might be caused by a bad flat ribbon
cable flexing in the air stream from the fans, it is the common item
(besides the IDE controller chip on the motherboard) between the separate
HDD and atapi (CD drive) errors. Such a thing could lead to head slamming on
the HDD or other odd occurrences that can physically damage the HDD. If you
hear occasional tic noises, faint or loud, that's probably head slamming
during data seeks and damage has likely already occurred and the HDD device
itself might be well into a total failure stage. Try another cable (most
shops have spares galore), and if no joy then disconnect one device at a
time from the cable and observe error reports in Event Viewer. Sub out the
device discovered if you can, unless BOTH devices *individually* still
report errors with a new cable -- in which case the motherboard controller
chip is the most likely cause IMO.

More and more your diagnostics are pointing at an intermittent bad
motherboard, and perhaps one that has a consistant and demonstrable problem
with the IDE controller chip. If the chip is bad it could be affecting the
system address or data bus on the motherboard from time to time, and
definitely could cause crashes or reboots.

I had already changed the cable and noted that the error remained.

I have disconnected the HDD and left the CD-Rom drive attached. This takes
away the "disk" and "atapi" errors in event viewer. I haven't tried the HDD
on its own but I will.

Janice

 

[Janice]

I'd not conclude too readily that it isn't a particular item of
hardware causing it. Don't you know that the inherent malevolence of
inanimate objects means that they only misbehave when you aren't
watching? <grin>

Seriously a flakey piece of hardware *may* behave under test, then
show symptoms later on.

It could be a dry joint of a hairline crack on the motherboard. If it
is, you are unlikely to be able to locate it. I think that you said
that the machine was fairly old?

Cheers,

Cliff

It's just over 2 years old - not old in my estimation.

Janice

 

[Janice]

could slamming

I had already changed the cable and noted that the error remained.

I have disconnected the HDD and left the CD-Rom drive attached. This takes
away the "disk" and "atapi" errors in event viewer. I haven't tried the HDD
on its own but I will.

Janice

OK checked this out.

CD-Rom on its own - no error in event viewer.

HDD on its own - no error in event viewer.

Both CD-Rom and HDD - "disk" and "atapi" error.

HDD is set to Master, CD-Rom to slave. Both work fine when both connected.

What does this tell me?

Janice

 

[WinGuy]

OK checked this out.

CD-Rom on its own - no error in event viewer.

HDD on its own - no error in event viewer.

Both CD-Rom and HDD - "disk" and "atapi" error.

HDD is set to Master, CD-Rom to slave. Both work fine when both connected.

What does this tell me?

Janice

Interesting! Ok with either one connected, but not when both are connected.
Hmmm. I assume you exercised them that way before looking for errors.

Try another flat ribbon cable. Watch out how the red stripe side of it is
oriented, these are usually keyed but sometimes they are not and hooking a
flat cable backwards in orientation can cause major damage. But it tells me
that the cable is probably OK and the controller chip can not supply the
load requirements (it's called "fan out") when 2 devices are connected. But
maybe, just maybe it's the cable or one of the 2 devices is drawing down
more than it should and thus more than what the motherboard chip can
supply -- again, I suggest that you sub out one device at a time (with a new
flat ribbon cable, preferably) and try it with a load of 2 devices on that
one new cable. Still looking even more like a motherboard problem.

 

[Janice]

Interesting! Ok with either one connected, but not when both are connected.
Hmmm. I assume you exercised them that way before looking for errors.

It all started this way when the system was bought in July 2002 - worked
fine since then. In May of this year, my elder son changed over the CD-Rom
drive for a newer, faster one. Everything worked fine for a month - or at
least so we thought. When the rebooting problem appeared, I started looking
into things and noticed that the 2nd HD was missing. I assumed that he had
mistakenly not changed the jumper setting on the CD-Rom when he put it in,
so I asked him to check it while I was at work one day. He said later that
the CD-Rom was on master, the same as on the HD and that he had changed the
CD-Rom to slave. Both CD-Rom and HD were now there in "My Computer" but
still the rebooting problem. That's when I began checking event viewer and
noticed the errors.

Try another flat ribbon cable. Watch out how the red stripe side of it is
oriented, these are usually keyed but sometimes they are not and hooking a
flat cable backwards in orientation can cause major damage. But it tells me
that the cable is probably OK and the controller chip can not supply the
load requirements (it's called "fan out") when 2 devices are connected. But
maybe, just maybe it's the cable or one of the 2 devices is drawing down
more than it should and thus more than what the motherboard chip can
supply -- again, I suggest that you sub out one device at a time (with a new
flat ribbon cable, preferably) and try it with a load of 2 devices on that
one new cable. Still looking even more like a motherboard problem.

When the errors first appeared, MS help pointed out that the usual cause was
a faulty cable. I replced the cable at that point. So basically I have now
use two IDE cable and both give the same error. Do you want me to try a
third cable? Although I'm not sure I actually have a third cable. Can't
imagine that both cables would be faulty though.

Unfortunately, I still get the rebooting problem even with no devices
connected to the secondary IDE.

Janice

 

[Enkidu]

It's just over 2 years old - not old in my estimation.

Ah, OK. Not too old then.

Cheers,

Cliff