Z
Zackman
R420 wrote:
<snip>
This guy is Cygfuck, right? Just checking.
-Z-
<snip>
This guy is Cygfuck, right? Just checking.
-Z-
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Z
Zackman
R420 wrote:
<snip again>
Much of this info puts my fretting mind at ease. The Xbox 2 sounds teh
roxorz.
Except for this:
Um, actually YES YOU DO. That's what the Music Mixer PC Tool does, transfers
files from your PC HDD to the Xbox HDD. Jesus. Are they suggesting that
you'll have to have your Xbox networked to a PC in order to store content on
a HDD? That's asinine. I don't want to have to fire up my PC to listen to
ripped soundtracks -- I'd just get a media center PC if I wanted that, And
it still doesn't address the whole issue of storing downloadable content to
the Xbox itself. HDD storage is NOT a feature if you need to network your
Xbox to a PC to make use of it.
Xbox 2 will not be backwards compatible. The sooner everyone has a good cry
and moves on, the better.
-Z-
<snip again>
Much of this info puts my fretting mind at ease. The Xbox 2 sounds teh
roxorz.
Except for this:
Do you
physically need a hard disc to store content? Consider this; in the
case of Xbox Music Mixer, do you need the files to be stored in your
Xbox?
Um, actually YES YOU DO. That's what the Music Mixer PC Tool does, transfers
files from your PC HDD to the Xbox HDD. Jesus. Are they suggesting that
you'll have to have your Xbox networked to a PC in order to store content on
a HDD? That's asinine. I don't want to have to fire up my PC to listen to
ripped soundtracks -- I'd just get a media center PC if I wanted that, And
it still doesn't address the whole issue of storing downloadable content to
the Xbox itself. HDD storage is NOT a feature if you need to network your
Xbox to a PC to make use of it.
It may also be a false claim that the Xbox 2 will not be backwards
compatible. Well, sort of anyways...
Xbox 2 will not be backwards compatible. The sooner everyone has a good cry
and moves on, the better.
-Z-
R
R420
http://www.teamxbox.com/news.php?id=5388
Xbox 2 Specs Leaked * Update *
By: Cesar
Feb. 1st, 2004 01:27 pm
"Mercury News has just published an article revealing the Xbox 2
specs. You can view the entire article here.
We had access to some speculative Xbox specs last month but we have
held off on revealing them until more official word is given. Now that
someone had the balls to do it, we'll bring you even more details
based on the info we have.
Please remember this info isn't official and based on info from
various sources. As the Mercury News article says, the Xbox 2 will use
three 64-bit processors. But we'll give you even more details. They'll
be PowerPC processors, based on the PowerPC 976, the first dual-core
97x chip based on IBM's 64-bit POWER5 architecture, which will also be
the first PowerPC built on a 65nm manufacturing process. Check our
previous story for further details.
Each processor is capable of processing two threads, thus meaning the
whole system can process six threads simultaneously. It is worth
noting that, because of its RISC nature, the new architecture is a
big-endian system, a term that describes the order in which a sequence
of bytes are stored in computer memory. Traditional x86 architectures
use the little-endian approach.
The Xbox 2 is a multiprocessor-enabled, 64-bit platform. It is a
proven server architecture that, in the case of Xbox, won't take
advantage of the greater than 4-GB physical memory space benefit of
64-bit computing but will make use of its other benefit: wider data
paths and registers, something extremely useful in the execution and
process of both integer and floating-point calculations.
The Graphic Chip
The graphic chip will be based on the the R500. This VPU has been in
design at ATI's Marlborough, Mass. office. It'll be fully compatible
with DirectX 9 PS and VS 3.0 and the next version of DirectX: DX10,
the same suite of APIs that will be used in Longhorn.
What nobody is telling you and you'll know about this first, here on
TeamXbox, is the revolutionary approach of the Xbox 2 to deal with
today's biggest problem in graphics chips: memory bandwidth.
The graphic chip will contain not only a graphics rendering core but
up embedded DRAM acting as a frame buffer that is big enough to handle
an image that is 480i and can be 4 times over sampled and double
buffered. Yeah, we all remember Bitboys but this time you can bet this
is for real. This solution will finally make possible HDTV visuals
with full screen Anti-Aliasing on.
The technology also supports up to 512 MB of external memory on a
256-bit bus. However, current specs plan to use 256 MB RAM, big enough
for next-generation visuals which are all about computational power
rather than large storage.
We'll have more on the Xbox 2 specs soon. Stay tuned. We'll update
throughout the day.
** UPDATE **
Information or Disinformation?
Don't believe everything you read. This is certainly the case
regarding a lot of speculation that is currently flying around
regarding the specifics of the Xbox 2. However, by collecting various
bits of information it is possible to establish a few more than
possible predictions of what is to come. Many have been discussing the
rumors that the Xbox 2 will lack a hard disk, but this may not
necessarily be true. Others have also been saying that a waiting game
is being played between Microsoft and Sony, in which one side is
merely waiting to see what the other does before making a decision.
Again, this is most likely not true. Both companies are sure to have
pretty solid ideas of just how they want their console hardware to be
designed. Many of our questions are more likely than not already
answered, and the question that remains is when will these facts be
officially supported by the designers.
While we can't give you any official information, we can give you a
hint based on what we have come to know by deductive reasoning. Do you
physically need a hard disc to store content? Consider this; in the
case of Xbox Music Mixer, do you need the files to be stored in your
Xbox? Answer that for yourself and you might just have sufficient info
to put this question to rest…at least for now.
It may also be a false claim that the Xbox 2 will not be backwards
compatible. Well, sort of anyways...
The fact is that Xbox 2 could be backwards compatible using emulation.
Microsoft already owns VirtualPC, which allows PowerPC architectures
to run Microsoft Windows applications. However, the problem is that,
although Microsoft owns the DirectX API and the Windows kernel, it
doesn't own the nVidia chips found in the Xbox and since it is
changing it graphics partner in favor of ATI, there are almost no
chances of an agreement between the two companies being reached. This
is more of a business problem rather than a technical issue."
Xbox 2 Specs Leaked * Update *
By: Cesar
Feb. 1st, 2004 01:27 pm
"Mercury News has just published an article revealing the Xbox 2
specs. You can view the entire article here.
We had access to some speculative Xbox specs last month but we have
held off on revealing them until more official word is given. Now that
someone had the balls to do it, we'll bring you even more details
based on the info we have.
Please remember this info isn't official and based on info from
various sources. As the Mercury News article says, the Xbox 2 will use
three 64-bit processors. But we'll give you even more details. They'll
be PowerPC processors, based on the PowerPC 976, the first dual-core
97x chip based on IBM's 64-bit POWER5 architecture, which will also be
the first PowerPC built on a 65nm manufacturing process. Check our
previous story for further details.
Each processor is capable of processing two threads, thus meaning the
whole system can process six threads simultaneously. It is worth
noting that, because of its RISC nature, the new architecture is a
big-endian system, a term that describes the order in which a sequence
of bytes are stored in computer memory. Traditional x86 architectures
use the little-endian approach.
The Xbox 2 is a multiprocessor-enabled, 64-bit platform. It is a
proven server architecture that, in the case of Xbox, won't take
advantage of the greater than 4-GB physical memory space benefit of
64-bit computing but will make use of its other benefit: wider data
paths and registers, something extremely useful in the execution and
process of both integer and floating-point calculations.
The Graphic Chip
The graphic chip will be based on the the R500. This VPU has been in
design at ATI's Marlborough, Mass. office. It'll be fully compatible
with DirectX 9 PS and VS 3.0 and the next version of DirectX: DX10,
the same suite of APIs that will be used in Longhorn.
What nobody is telling you and you'll know about this first, here on
TeamXbox, is the revolutionary approach of the Xbox 2 to deal with
today's biggest problem in graphics chips: memory bandwidth.
The graphic chip will contain not only a graphics rendering core but
up embedded DRAM acting as a frame buffer that is big enough to handle
an image that is 480i and can be 4 times over sampled and double
buffered. Yeah, we all remember Bitboys but this time you can bet this
is for real. This solution will finally make possible HDTV visuals
with full screen Anti-Aliasing on.
The technology also supports up to 512 MB of external memory on a
256-bit bus. However, current specs plan to use 256 MB RAM, big enough
for next-generation visuals which are all about computational power
rather than large storage.
We'll have more on the Xbox 2 specs soon. Stay tuned. We'll update
throughout the day.
** UPDATE **
Information or Disinformation?
Don't believe everything you read. This is certainly the case
regarding a lot of speculation that is currently flying around
regarding the specifics of the Xbox 2. However, by collecting various
bits of information it is possible to establish a few more than
possible predictions of what is to come. Many have been discussing the
rumors that the Xbox 2 will lack a hard disk, but this may not
necessarily be true. Others have also been saying that a waiting game
is being played between Microsoft and Sony, in which one side is
merely waiting to see what the other does before making a decision.
Again, this is most likely not true. Both companies are sure to have
pretty solid ideas of just how they want their console hardware to be
designed. Many of our questions are more likely than not already
answered, and the question that remains is when will these facts be
officially supported by the designers.
While we can't give you any official information, we can give you a
hint based on what we have come to know by deductive reasoning. Do you
physically need a hard disc to store content? Consider this; in the
case of Xbox Music Mixer, do you need the files to be stored in your
Xbox? Answer that for yourself and you might just have sufficient info
to put this question to rest…at least for now.
It may also be a false claim that the Xbox 2 will not be backwards
compatible. Well, sort of anyways...
The fact is that Xbox 2 could be backwards compatible using emulation.
Microsoft already owns VirtualPC, which allows PowerPC architectures
to run Microsoft Windows applications. However, the problem is that,
although Microsoft owns the DirectX API and the Windows kernel, it
doesn't own the nVidia chips found in the Xbox and since it is
changing it graphics partner in favor of ATI, there are almost no
chances of an agreement between the two companies being reached. This
is more of a business problem rather than a technical issue."
N
Never anonymous Bud
While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', (e-mail address removed) (R420)
scribbled:
SO, NOW we know why the box is still vaporware.
*6* CPUs (effectively), and those CPUs haven't even been taped out yet!
But only 256 megs of ram, AND no HD?? Doesn't quite make sense.
To reply by email, remove the XYZ.
Lumber Cartel (tinlc) #2063. Spam this account at your own risk.
This sig censored by the Office of Home and Land Insecurity....
scribbled:
Please remember this info isn't official and based on info from
various sources. As the Mercury News article says, the Xbox 2 will use
three 64-bit processors. But we'll give you even more details. They'll
be PowerPC processors, based on the PowerPC 976, the first dual-core
97x chip based on IBM's 64-bit POWER5 architecture, which will also be
the first PowerPC built on a 65nm manufacturing process.
SO, NOW we know why the box is still vaporware.
*6* CPUs (effectively), and those CPUs haven't even been taped out yet!
But only 256 megs of ram, AND no HD?? Doesn't quite make sense.
To reply by email, remove the XYZ.
Lumber Cartel (tinlc) #2063. Spam this account at your own risk.
This sig censored by the Office of Home and Land Insecurity....
A
Andrew Ryan Chang
R420 said:http://www.teamxbox.com/news.php?id=5388
Xbox 2 Specs Leaked * Update *
By: Cesar
Feb. 1st, 2004 01:27 pm
Each processor is capable of processing two threads, thus meaning the
whole system can process six threads simultaneously. It is worth
noting that, because of its RISC nature, the new architecture is a
big-endian system,
Wait, what? I'm pretty sure the PS2 and Cube are both
little-endian as well "despite" being RISC.
What nobody is telling you and you'll know about this first, here on
TeamXbox, is the revolutionary approach of the Xbox 2 to deal with
today's biggest problem in graphics chips: memory bandwidth.
The graphic chip will contain not only a graphics rendering core but
up embedded DRAM acting as a frame buffer that is big enough to handle
an image that is 480i and can be 4 times over sampled and double
buffered.
I thought the PS2's GS already has embedded DRAM, though not
enough for 4x oversampling and double buffered IIRC. What's the
revolutionary aspect here?
B
Ben Pope
Andrew said:Wait, what? I'm pretty sure the PS2 and Cube are both
little-endian as well "despite" being RISC.
It is NOT worth noting that it is big-endian. Big-endian also has nothing
to do with the size of the instruction set.
Ben
B
Ben Pope
Never said:But only 256 megs of ram, AND no HD?? Doesn't quite make sense.
"The technology also supports up to 512 MB of external memory on a
256-bit bus. However, current specs plan to use 256 MB RAM, big enough
for next-generation visuals which are all about computational power
rather than large storage."
Dunno how much RAM it'll have, but 256MB is VIDEO memory.
Ben
M
Matthew Shaw
Do you
Your answer was exactly what I was thinking. Their response made no sense...
physically need a hard disc to store content? Consider this; in the
case of Xbox Music Mixer, do you need the files to be stored in your
Xbox?
Your answer was exactly what I was thinking. Their response made no sense...
T
Tony Hill
Please remember this info isn't official and based on info from
various sources. As the Mercury News article says, the Xbox 2 will use
three 64-bit processors. But we'll give you even more details. They'll
be PowerPC processors, based on the PowerPC 976, the first dual-core
97x chip based on IBM's 64-bit POWER5 architecture, which will also be
the first PowerPC built on a 65nm manufacturing process. Check our
previous story for further details.
Each processor is capable of processing two threads, thus meaning the
whole system can process six threads simultaneously. It is worth
Err, so it's 3 separate chips, each with 2 cores and each core capable
of 2 simultaneous threads? Or are they just single-core chips but
with SMT?
noting that, because of its RISC nature, the new architecture is a
big-endian system, a term that describes the order in which a sequence
Uhh, since when did RISC or CISC or any other type of instruction set
have anything to do with the endian-ness of the processor?!
The Xbox 2 is a multiprocessor-enabled, 64-bit platform. It is a
proven server architecture that, in the case of Xbox, won't take
advantage of the greater than 4-GB physical memory space benefit of
64-bit computing but will make use of its other benefit: wider data
paths and registers, something extremely useful in the execution and
process of both integer and floating-point calculations.
Wider data paths?! What is that marketing trash? 64-bit chips do NOT
have wider data paths than 32-bit chips except in their registers.
In any case, a 32-bit chip is going to be a fair bit faster for games
than a 64-bit chip (all else being equal, as it is with the PPC
chips), and until you want to address more than ~2GB of memory, 64-bit
doesn't make any sense of this application. It's not like integers
with >4 billion range are common place in games or anything! Hell,
even double-percision floating point calculations are rare!
What nobody is telling you and you'll know about this first, here on
TeamXbox, is the revolutionary approach of the Xbox 2 to deal with
today's biggest problem in graphics chips: memory bandwidth.
The graphic chip will contain not only a graphics rendering core but
up embedded DRAM acting as a frame buffer that is big enough to handle
Ohh yeah! Embedded DRAM! What a revolutionary new technology...
Wait a minute here.. The GAMECUBE uses embedded DRAM!
an image that is 480i and can be 4 times over sampled and double
buffered. Yeah, we all remember Bitboys but this time you can bet this
is for real. This solution will finally make possible HDTV visuals
with full screen Anti-Aliasing on.
Of course it's for real this time. ATI designed the GPU for the
Gamecube using eDRAM, so it doesn't seem at all out of line that they
could do it again for the XBox2.
It may also be a false claim that the Xbox 2 will not be backwards
compatible. Well, sort of anyways...
The fact is that Xbox 2 could be backwards compatible using emulation.
Microsoft already owns VirtualPC, which allows PowerPC architectures
to run Microsoft Windows applications. However, the problem is that,
although Microsoft owns the DirectX API and the Windows kernel, it
doesn't own the nVidia chips found in the Xbox and since it is
changing it graphics partner in favor of ATI, there are almost no
chances of an agreement between the two companies being reached. This
is more of a business problem rather than a technical issue."
No business problems here, MS owns the specs, nVidia just owns the
implementation. It's purely a technical problem, or more to the
point, is MS willing to through enough money at the problem to make it
work.
The XBox2 COULD play all current XBox games. The video chipset issue
is much less of an issue than the CPU. Both require some thought, but
they CAN be handled in all but the most extreme cases (ie there would
be the odd game that would be buggy or just completely
non-functional). Of course, it wouldn't be cheap. Lots of
programming and even more testing and debugging would be required. MS
may decide that the extra cost just isn't worth it.
G
George
Zackman said:R420 wrote:
<snip again>
Much of this info puts my fretting mind at ease. The Xbox 2 sounds teh
roxorz.
Except for this:
Um, actually YES YOU DO.
Maybe that's what they mean, ie you do need one and thus for future titles
similar to that you will still need one.
If as has been said in the past the XB2 and PS3 will be media centres that
let you record TV etc then I don't see how they can do without a hard drive.
Maybe recordable DVD? Which would be cheaper to include?
S
Scott
It may also be a false claim that the Xbox 2 will not be backwards
And you have complete and utter proof of this, how?
Scott
Xbox 2 will not be backwards compatible. The sooner everyone has a good cry
and moves on, the better.
-Z-
And you have complete and utter proof of this, how?
Scott
Z
Zackman
George said:Maybe that's what they mean, ie you do need one and thus for future
titles similar to that you will still need one.
Good point. Maybe that was meant to be a way of saying 'of course it will
have a HDD sillies.' Either that or TeamXbox is mroe brain dead than usual.
If as has been said in the past the XB2 and PS3 will be media centres
that let you record TV etc then I don't see how they can do without a
hard drive. Maybe recordable DVD? Which would be cheaper to include?
Maybe, but that still kills the possibility of having soundtracks in games
or cached files for faster loading or music stored on the Xbox itself. If MS
opts not to have at least a smallish HDD in the Xbox 2 it'll be an enormous
mistake. But given how they hype XBL downloads and soundtracks/music
downloads, I can't see how they wouldn't. Let's hope.
-Z-
Z
Zackman
Scott said:And you have complete and utter proof of this, how?
Jesus told me. He came to me in a dream and said, 'Zack, my son, consider
this: The Xbox 2 will be using different GPU chipsets, a different CPU and
different architecture. The only way they could make Xbox 2 compatible is
through emulation, and we all know that's spotty as best, especially since
some Xbox games make use of some very specific features of the Nvidia GPU
that would be extremely difficult to emulate properl - not to mention
there's no way Nvidia is going to cooperate in that respect. And to say the
Xbox 2 would be backwards compatible with some games but not others would
probably piss off more people that it pleased. So, my young Zack, you must
accept that the Xbox 2 will not be backwards compatible.'
In my next dream I was having sex with Eva Mendes. So all around it was a
good night.
-Z-
Z
Zackman
Ben said:Dunno how much RAM it'll have, but 256MB is VIDEO memory.
I suspect that's shared memory (video and system), as with the original
Xbox.
-Z-
S
Skijumptoes
Baron Von Tony Hill said:Err, so it's 3 separate chips, each with 2 cores and each core capable
of 2 simultaneous threads? Or are they just single-core chips but
with SMT?
SMT?! Is that like PMT but with the emphasis on 'Severe'?!
*worries*
D
Dave
Either way it'll be a pig to develop for. Synchronising two or three
threads is hard enough.
threads is hard enough.
X
xTenn
George said:If as has been said in the past the XB2 and PS3 will be media centres that
let you record TV etc then I don't see how they can do without a hard drive.
Maybe recordable DVD? Which would be cheaper to include?
Completely conjecture on my part, but I sometimes wonder if there will be a
hub for mass storage of this type. Already Micrsoft has shown that they
like to pull costs out of a product with the DVD kit, and a central hub for
those that want it would make sense. For strictly game related functions
the demands for storage is MUCH lower, even considering downloads. Not to
mention the lack of an IDE would help thwart the modders.
..02
B
Ben Pope
Dave said:Either way it'll be a pig to develop for. Synchronising two or three
threads is hard enough.
Synchronising two threads is a PITA, but if you've done it properly, 400
threads requires no more work.
Getting a benefit from them all is the issue.
Ben
M
Martin
In my next dream I was having sex with Eva Mendes. So all around it
was a good night.
-Z-
Not for Eva Mendes it wasn't......
B
bariole
radeonr420 said:
I truly doubt that xbox next will use 3 cpus with 6 cores (SMT or
multiple cores, whatever). This doesn't make too much sense in gaming
machine like xbox.
Power4 has die size of 400+ mm^2 at 130 nm process with 2 cores on die.
So same chip at 65 nm would be big as about 100-130 mm^2. Multiply that
by 3 and that's just too big (300-400 mm^2 on same die or three
separated 100-130 mm^2 chips). Too big too expensive.
As name of chip is Power 976 that means that 970 was probably base for
new xbox cpu. 970 is much smaller (I believe that it was about 110 mm^
2), and scaled down to 65 nm probably would be somewhere about 60-70
mm^2. If they use SMT for multithreading whole chip with 3 SMT cores
would be about 150-200 mm^2. Highly depends on cache design but it is
still too big for efficient power/money design for which they long for.
Even if they take this road memory bandwidth is still too limited for 3
cpus (6 particularly). SMT is not needed in this kind of console. Also,
hardware becomes too complicated with additional CPUs and finally that
is probably too much power for r500 based gfx. It doesn't sound balanced
at all.
I would chose one cpu, one core but with multiply Altivec units. That
makes sense. Make cpu small and power efficient like on all other
consoles (PS2, DC and GC). Deliver high multimedia power thorough
multiple Altivec and combine that with R500 and new star is born.
Anyway I am very suspicious toward multiple chips. One cpu with SMT -
passable, anything else isn't efficient.
On other hand integrated framebuffer with r500 does have much sense.
In DirectX 10 framebuffer has much bigger role than in previous
iterations of dx so integrating framebuffer with gpu is good way to
take. However standard shaders in dx10 are v4, not v3. So I believe that
we will see v4 in xbox 2.
I would be disappointed if new xbox will not feature hdd.
And I doubt that it will feature backward compatibility.
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