Which PSU would you buy?

K

kony

Here: www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/V-Series/all_inside.jpg

are some PSUs with 120mm fans (left to right: 350W, 400W, 500W) but
heatsinks that aren't chopped down. They seem more substantial than
the heatsinks of 120mm PSUs from Seasonic and Fortron. I don't know
how good a job the manufacturer, Wintech, did with the cooling, but
they did bother to stick a sheet of mylar across about 1/3" of the fan
area at the rear to prevent air coming in from being sucked up into the
fan before it flowed through the heatsinks. Jonny Guru said these PSUs
are OK, but I wonder if the main transformer is a bit puny because in
my 350W Ultra/Wintech it's the same size as the ones in my 300W and
350W Antecs, but it runs at 50 KHz instead of 60 KHz.


It seems a trade-off, while they managed to get as much
'sink in as they could, other PSU without the 120mm fans do
often have larger 'sinks.

Personally I'd just as soon they avoided all of these issues
and went to a new PSU form-factor, something tall enough to
fit a 92mm fan in the rear and/or front. It seems a lot of
those with 120mm fans are using sleeve bearing fans which
can be a problem in itself with horizontal mounting.


If you want to see real quality, look at this PSU found inside an
external USB disk drive enclosure:

http://static.flickr.com/51/128289379_5034f765c4_b.jpg

LOL, now THAT is fancy!

I've got an old 3.5" tape drive enclosure somewhere, I ought
to take a picture of that PSU for contrast purposes. The
tape drive probably used about 250mA/500mA But the PSU
would probably handle at least 3 hard drives.

Naturally it's not UL approved. And sitting right above it is a low
voltage circuit board, separated by just a thin sheet of plastic
pressing against the heatsink that holds the high voltage transistors..
I have two of these enclosures. I'm going to return one, and with the
other I substituted a UL approved external PSU.


Who pays retail? ;) My most expensive Antec was $15, including the
case, and I can always tack a resistor across the fan control
thermistor for better cooling.

Yeah... but some people do, they'll want to buy everything
on the spot. I never do that, except maybe a CPU if I found
a deal on a board.
 
T

toronado455

kony said:
Troll boy, I'd already mentioned at least once that any
application would have to be considered, yet conspicuously
missing were details of the target system.

This thread was a bit ridiculous, another case of a poster
expecting they can withold the important details, and expect
the correct answer. Even now, the only details emerging are
"basic, non-overclocked P4 2.4". Since those are the only
details supplied thus far, and that the OP seems to be
completely confused about where or why a PSU will have
bottom intake

I just don't want bottom intake on systems where there is an air
pathway obstruction

, I'll link two;


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104953
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104952

Both of these use relatively LQ yate loon fans though, it
will make them quieter than some but they'll need relubed
every couple years or so for best life.

Though if his implications about basic, 2.4GHz are correct,
the best bang for the buck is probably this,
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817153023

However, since system is a basic 2.4GHz, it may be rather
spartan and economized, and if the goal were to penny pinch
as much as possible, even a 300W PSU might do the job
providing a newer ATX design so it at least has over 12A
(honest/accurately rated) 12V rail. We have no idea though,
if basic might mean by next year he'll put a couple more
hard drives in, so it all comes back to the original issue-
one buys a PSU applicable for the specific system needs, it
is primary criteria and STILL witheld information.

Sorry about withholding required information. The P4 system will have 1
or 2 HDD at the most. Nothing fancy.

I also have another system that needs a PSU. The details of that system
are Athlon XP 2000+ (1.667GHz), again not overclocked, 2 HDD, 1 optical
drive, video card, audio card. Would your recommendation be any
different for that system?
 
K

kony

I just don't want bottom intake on systems where there is an air
pathway obstruction

So you claim, but it is virtually impossible for it to
really obstruct. Did you not note that most motherboards
have their socket in the same vicinity and yet, this design
persists?

A real obstruction would be something like taking a flat
object, blocking the PSU intake by putting that flat object
flush with the PSU casing. Do you not see that the whole
point of the bottom intake is that parts are close to it?
Did you feel it is important to have a lot of airflow on the
back of an optical drive, because if you have a rear psu
intake, that is the only thing it helps to cool. Don't get
me wrong, rear intake based systems can work fine, I have
several here... but for best effect if you don't use a
bottom-intake PSU you need the other cooling to make up for
that reduction in airflow around the most heat-dense part of
the system (excluding the video GPU, but that goes without
saying).

I was trying to give you a hint, that what you are guessing
is a problem, usually isn't. The very reason you think it's
a problem is why it's where it is, on purpose. Typically
the problem is if the heatsink is giant-sized, that you know
it's so large that a normal case configuration may not fit
right anymore... but in that situation, the psu itself has
to be higher, not just the intake moved from bottom to rear.


Sorry about withholding required information. The P4 system will have 1
or 2 HDD at the most. Nothing fancy.

I also have another system that needs a PSU. The details of that system
are Athlon XP 2000+ (1.667GHz), again not overclocked, 2 HDD, 1 optical
drive, video card, audio card. Would your recommendation be any
different for that system?


Yes, but for some reason you again failed to actually list
the major system parts. "Video card" isn't useful... most
systems have one, some use 5W and some over 100W.

The latter system needs a PSU with more 5V amps and fewer
12V amps. Typically 200+W of combined 3V+5V power. Sparkle
makes some good ones in their 400W older series,
http://www.directron.com/fsp40060pfn.html
.... but being an aging system already, if you wanted to go
cheap it would probably run from this lesser quality psu
too,

http://www.directron.com/tt520ssal.html
.... but if you buy this one I deny having linked it. It is
not what I'd suggest for the system if it were new today,
but the lower the system value becomes, the less sense it
might make to spend a lot on the PSU, IMO.
 
T

toronado455

The latter system needs a PSU with more 5V amps and fewer
12V amps.

Why? How many 5V amps? How many 12V amps?
Typically 200+W of combined 3V+5V power.

Why? And how do you determine how much power in watts the 3V+5V is on a
given PSU?
 
K

kony

All PSUs perform poorly on dynamic tests? Methinks you misread
the question.

No, RELATIVE to static tests, a dynamic load is always more
of a challenge to any SMPS, which has a global feedback.
 
K

kony

Why? How many 5V amps? How many 12V amps?

Why is because that is how they designed it.

The "vrm", voltage regulation subcircuit could use either 5V
or 12V, but board designers make that call. Intel (and now
AMD) suggest to use 12V, because it causes a lower current,
but ultimately if one designed a proper board and PSU, 5V
could still run any VRM, just not as cost-effectivelyl.

Why? And how do you determine how much power in watts the 3V+5V is on a
given PSU?


The combined 3V+5V is a spec, disclosed by the manufacturer.
If no spec if given, you can guess or assume based on
similar designed by same manufacturer, or trace and spec
individual components. If you can't trace and spec, then
you have to rely on the word of those who can do so.

The "why" is about margin, having a PSU capable of a
reasonable amount more current on the most-used rail (or any
for that matter), ensures (if the rating is accurate) than
the PSU will have a reasonable, viable lifespan at the
current the system needs.

This is a fundamental shift, and partly due to intel specs,
that systems went from using more 5V amps to more (but,
fewer,) 12V amps. Although Intel doesn't always have the
best CPU at any point in time, they are always a very strong
force in the industry.
 
U

UCLAN

kony said:
No, RELATIVE to static tests, a dynamic load is always more
of a challenge to any SMPS, which has a global feedback.

So your definition of "performing poorly" is...???

A dynamic response to within regulation limits with no ringing
within 50uS is poor? Within 100uS? A 25% load step? A 50% load step?
 
K

kony

So your definition of "performing poorly" is...???

A dynamic response to within regulation limits with no ringing
within 50uS is poor? Within 100uS? A 25% load step? A 50% load step?


Is it not obvious, that would be relative to the ATX specs?
And further, it would relate to the validity of a constant
load test in determining fitness of a unit meant for highly
variable load use.
 
T

Timothy Daniels

"UCLAN" asked:
So your definition of "performing poorly" is...???

A dynamic response to within regulation limits with no ringing
within 50uS is poor? Within 100uS? A 25% load step? A 50% load step?


Forget it. Korny doesn't define his terms. To do so would get
in the way of his pontificating. He likes to wave his hands and
make veeeeery long-winded speaches without any substance.

*TimDaniels*
 
L

larry moe 'n curly

kony said:
On 18 May 2006 15:30:43 -0700, "larry moe 'n curly"
<[email protected]> wrote:
I have nothing against Antec, they are a lot better than
most generics. Even so, unless one is bundled in a case
(for the cost savings of bundling when on sale), I would
never seek an Antec PSU. Their name-recognition simply
results in too much of a premium price if buying one lone
unit at retail pricing.

Yeah... but some people do, they'll want to buy everything
on the spot. I never do that, except maybe a CPU if I found
a deal on a board.

I finally bought a PSU rated for more than 350W, a 500W Antec
SmartPower, but only because it was one of the cheapest PSUs available
-- $15 after rebate today at Fry's. They also had a 350W SmartPower
for that price, and it also includd a decent case.
 
K

kony

"UCLAN" asked:


Forget it. Korny doesn't define his terms. To do so would get
in the way of his pontificating. He likes to wave his hands and
make veeeeery long-winded speaches without any substance.

*TimDaniels*


LOL

You do realize it would save you a lot of typing to just put
a continual whining blurb in your sig?
 
T

toronado455

kony said:
The combined 3V+5V is a spec, disclosed by the manufacturer.
If no spec if given, you can guess or assume based on
similar designed by same manufacturer, or trace and spec
individual components. If you can't trace and spec, then
you have to rely on the word of those who can do so.

Isn't it just W=V*A?
 
U

UCLAN

Timothy said:
Forget it. Korny doesn't define his terms. To do so would get
in the way of his pontificating. He likes to wave his hands and
make veeeeery long-winded speaches without any substance.

I think the thread above illustrates that point. He said that ALL
PSUs perform *poorly* on dynamic tests. Such is simply not the case,
but he is jabbing and weaving, refusing to admit it. Oh well...
 
T

Timothy Daniels

koRny said:
You do realize it would save you a lot of typing to just put
a continual whining blurb in your sig?

Anyone can just review this very thread to see who the
whiner is - the guy who goes on and on about how lousy
name brand power supplies are and how lousy the ATX form
factor is inadequate and how crowded heat sinks are, etc.,
etc. when all the OP asked was for a PSU recommendation.
Your hot air could heat Chicago for a winter.

*TimDaniels*
 
K

kony

Anyone can just review this very thread to see who the
whiner is - the guy who goes on and on about how lousy
name brand power supplies are and how lousy the ATX form
factor is inadequate and how crowded heat sinks are, etc.,
etc. when all the OP asked was for a PSU recommendation.
Your hot air could heat Chicago for a winter.

*TimDaniels*


Well Tim, if all name brand supplies were ok and any "ATX
form factor" part were as good as another, the thread
wouldn't exist at all would it?

If you can't appreciate the difference, maybe you are lucky,
ignorance is bliss.
 
K

kony

I think the thread above illustrates that point. He said that ALL
PSUs perform *poorly* on dynamic tests. Such is simply not the case,
but he is jabbing and weaving, refusing to admit it. Oh well...


Nope, no weave.. A specific context was written, I replied,
you disagreed, and now you think that if we disagree then I
will eventually try to turn around and agree with you in
some subtle way. I don't.

So clearly it is not anything like a weave, but now you
muddy the waters with silly attempts at a personal attack
instead of just sticking on topic.

If you try really really hard, possibly you can focus on
what WAS written instead of trying to make up something to
argue about, instead of trying to imply I meant more, or
other, than was written. If you GUESS I meant something I
didn't write, that's your own fault. If I then write more,
and it doesn't go along with what you had just GUESSED,
instead of what I wrote, your own mind has played a trick on
you but my stance on the topic remained static.

Would you like an example?

I recall you like PC Power & Cooling. OP wants a quiet PSU,
let's look at the specs for a Silencer 360, since it is near
the same price-point and should be adequate for the system.
Here's the spec sheet,
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/assets/S36ATX/specs.pdf

What do they spec? 1V p-p. When?
On a static load? No, it can easily do far better on a
static load, only load dynamics require such a high 1V spec.

How about efficiency? Did you think a PSU "must" score
around 74% if designed for a static load? Absolutely not.
That would be horrendous efficiency for a switcher designed
for a static load, but entirely plausable for one handling
dynamic loads.

Regulation, 5% and 10%. If they could reliably guarantee it
was always an order of magnitude less, they would do it.
Why can't they? It has to be spec'd for the intended use,
in a system that is a dynamic load.

Could someone hook it up to a system and perform one kind of
isolated test and find it less than 5 or 10% off? Of
course, and OTHER tests may deviate more... which is WHY
they don't try to lie and only mention best-case scenarios
instead of the truth.

Do you not realize that any bottom of the barrel generic can
legitimately claim less than 5 or 10% if it were only a
static load?

PC Power & Cooling makes some very good units, I'm not
trying to suggest otherwise but rather it was an example
from a company you seem to have liked, and they accept same
thing I wrote, that the dynamic loads DO result in worse
regulation on ALL of them.

That is just the tip of the iceburg though, the real issue
in many cases is the effect on the capacitors, the
performance of a part that has no need for bells, whistles,
or neon, has everything to do with whether it keeps working
instead of failing. It IS a performance parameter. One can
burn a candle at both ends but is it a high performance
candle or just one that burnt out fast? MTBF is yet another
PSU spec, they are all taken in context, not apart.

As I've written too many times to count, a short term test
is not a validating one, it only finds faults. Accelerated
wear is a poor performance index, and relative to a static
load, all PSU perform poorly.

Or to put it another way, we're contrasting static with
dynamic, so we're contrasting the same unit's accuracy when
static, vs. dynamically loaded. I did write RELATIVE
previously though, even capitalized and you still missed it.
 

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