Which PSU would you buy?

B

Bob Day

toronado455 said:
Given a choice between these two, which would you get?


FSP Group (Fortron Source) ATX400-PA, version 2.0, SATA, 400W Power
Supply - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817104952

Antec SmartPower 2.0 SP-400 400W Power Supply - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817103935

Neither of these would make it onto my short list. How did you
narrow your choices down to these particular ones?

-- Bob Day
http://bobday.vze.com
 
K

kony

Given a choice between these two, which would you get?


FSP Group (Fortron Source) ATX400-PA, version 2.0, SATA, 400W Power
Supply - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817104952

Antec SmartPower 2.0 SP-400 400W Power Supply - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817103935


You don't need either if you dont' have a system that needs
one, which we must assume you don't because you failed to
mention any context which would suggest either is more
appropriate than the other.
 
J

John McGaw

toronado455 said:
Given a choice between these two, which would you get?


FSP Group (Fortron Source) ATX400-PA, version 2.0, SATA, 400W Power
Supply - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817104952

Antec SmartPower 2.0 SP-400 400W Power Supply - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817103935

I'd call it pretty much of a toss-up with perhaps a very slight edge to
the Antec. Given my choice I'd buy a Seasonic over either of the choices
you offer. http://www.seasonicusa.com/s12.htm
 
T

toronado455

John said:
I'd call it pretty much of a toss-up with perhaps a very slight edge to
the Antec. Given my choice I'd buy a Seasonic over either of the choices
you offer. http://www.seasonicusa.com/s12.htm


Cool. I actually was comparing two PSUs *without* 12cm fans. The
Seasonic you mention has one which makes it an apples & oranges
comparison for my puposes. Is there a Seasonic without 12cm fan that
you would recommend? (Don't get me wrong - I like the kind with 12cm
fans but for the purposes of this comparison I'd like to restrict it to
only non-12cm fan PSUs.)
 
J

John McGaw

toronado455 said:
Cool. I actually was comparing two PSUs *without* 12cm fans. The
Seasonic you mention has one which makes it an apples & oranges
comparison for my puposes. Is there a Seasonic without 12cm fan that
you would recommend? (Don't get me wrong - I like the kind with 12cm
fans but for the purposes of this comparison I'd like to restrict it to
only non-12cm fan PSUs.)

I named the Seasonic because it is quiet and efficient and one of the
contributing factors in those qualities _IS_ the 12cm fan. It would be
self-defeating to recommend another Seasonic that doesn't offer that
benefit. Why would you want a PS without a 12cm fan?

In any case, my original reply gave the nod to the Antec even though it
probably isn't that much better than the other. It "won" because Antec
has a marginally better reputation than the Fortron.
 
K

kony

I named the Seasonic because it is quiet and efficient and one of the
contributing factors in those qualities _IS_ the 12cm fan. It would be
self-defeating to recommend another Seasonic that doesn't offer that
benefit. Why would you want a PS without a 12cm fan?


Because the fan usurps enough space inside the PSU that one
can't get more than 350-400 reasonable watt unit. Take a
look at most good quality 400+W units, there is not room in
them for a 12cm fan even if the heatsinks were made 30%
shorter.
 
T

toronado455

John said:
I named the Seasonic because it is quiet and efficient and one of the
contributing factors in those qualities _IS_ the 12cm fan. It would be
self-defeating to recommend another Seasonic that doesn't offer that
benefit. Why would you want a PS without a 12cm fan?

Firstly, let me say that the reason I would want a PSU *with* a 12cm
fan is because, as you say, it is more quiet and efficient - as long as
that is true.

But looking at the close position of items in the case and the location
of the 12cm fan at the bottom of the PSU, I am concerned that it might
"compete" with the case exhaust fan which is at a right angle to the
bottom of the PSU. I'm also concerned that the CPU HSF will at least
partially obstruct airflow to the bottom of the PSU.

If OTOH, there was sufficient space and a sufficient gap between these
items and the PSU, then the 12cm fan starts to look like a great idea.
I would definitely feel comfortable about using a PSU with 12cm fan in
a case like this one where there would be a fairly large gap between
the bottom of the PSU and the other items:

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16811125471


But in a case like this one...
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16811125486

....I would be concerned about the close proximity issues.

What do you think?

BTW, Fortron and Antec also make PSUs with 12cm fans. Do you prefer the
Seasonic with 12cm fan over those similar offerings from Fortron and
Antec?
 
T

toronado455

kony said:
Because the fan usurps enough space inside the PSU that one
can't get more than 350-400 reasonable watt unit. Take a
look at most good quality 400+W units, there is not room in
them for a 12cm fan even if the heatsinks were made 30%
shorter.

That's an excellent observation. But I'm not sure that is a valid
point. You would think that the engineers who design PSUs would be able
to redesign a PSU to use a 12cm fan in place of one or two 80cm fans
within the enclosure that is every bit as good.
 
K

kony

That's an excellent observation. But I'm not sure that is a valid
point. You would think that the engineers who design PSUs would be able
to redesign a PSU to use a 12cm fan in place of one or two 80cm fans
within the enclosure that is every bit as good.


Of course they can design it differently. It's not magic,
it'll require exotic parts that while smaller, also cost a
LOT more. You can't just shift things around to "get it all
to fit" with same parts because the whole reason the parts
were spread out (a little bit) was for that airflow to cool
them, and with a higher wattage unit it needs even that much
more airflow to remove the heat. So how much more would you
pay? None of the commodity grade PSUs are using such parts
currently, except for a few of the passively designed units
which run very hot and some aren't so reliable either unless
quite derated.

What they can do is make the PSU longer, and many do this.
Some OEMs have them taller as well but that doesn't work so
well for a std. ATX or BTX case (requires sawing % drilling
out the case if it'll fit at all).

Look at the top manufacturers who build high end units. PC
Power & Cooling, Delta, Zippy, et al. 450W is about max (if
that) when they have a 12cm fan in them. More often lower.
 
K

kony

Firstly, let me say that the reason I would want a PSU *with* a 12cm
fan is because, as you say, it is more quiet and efficient - as long as
that is true.

But looking at the close position of items in the case and the location
of the 12cm fan at the bottom of the PSU, I am concerned that it might
"compete" with the case exhaust fan which is at a right angle to the
bottom of the PSU. I'm also concerned that the CPU HSF will at least
partially obstruct airflow to the bottom of the PSU.

Neither are valid concerns because either with or without
the bottom fan, the air intake is still there unless you get
an only end-intake PSU instead. There are some decent ones
out there but it depends on your particular case and
motherboard whether the addt'l air movement is useful
towards the upper left quadrant of the board.

If OTOH, there was sufficient space and a sufficient gap between these
items and the PSU, then the 12cm fan starts to look like a great idea.
I would definitely feel comfortable about using a PSU with 12cm fan in
a case like this one where there would be a fairly large gap between
the bottom of the PSU and the other items:

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16811125471


But in a case like this one...
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16811125486

...I would be concerned about the close proximity issues.

What do you think?

That you're looking at cases made by the same manufacturer
as those Antec relabels, so if that's what you want you
might be able to get the Antec version with an Antec PSU
already in it for less. Then again, you never did mention
the rest of the system. Ever wonder why there are so many
PSU? Because not everyone needs the same thing. Any
discussion about which psu without an application is a
waste.

BTW, Fortron and Antec also make PSUs with 12cm fans. Do you prefer the
Seasonic with 12cm fan over those similar offerings from Fortron and
Antec?


You might focus less on names and more on what the system
needs and the budget to get there.
 
P

Paul

Firstly, let me say that the reason I would want a PSU *with* a 12cm
fan is because, as you say, it is more quiet and efficient - as long as
that is true.

But looking at the close position of items in the case and the location
of the 12cm fan at the bottom of the PSU, I am concerned that it might
"compete" with the case exhaust fan which is at a right angle to the
bottom of the PSU. I'm also concerned that the CPU HSF will at least
partially obstruct airflow to the bottom of the PSU.

If OTOH, there was sufficient space and a sufficient gap between these
items and the PSU, then the 12cm fan starts to look like a great idea.
I would definitely feel comfortable about using a PSU with 12cm fan in
a case like this one where there would be a fairly large gap between
the bottom of the PSU and the other items:

You guys are going at this the wrong way.

An ordinary cheap power supply, might have an efficiency of 68%.

A modern, efficient power supply improves the efficiency of
the conversion to 80% or slightly more. 80%+ designs are in
the minority, and the asking price is usually higher. If you
live in a country with a high electricity cost, the payback
period on the 80% unit is a lot shorter.

Now, lets make 100 watts DC output with each unit.

The first unit draws from the wall 100W/0.68 = 147W. That is
47W of heat, and 100W of useful power for the motherboard. The
47W of waste heat in the conversion, has to be removed by the
PSU fan.

Checking my calc - 100W output
----------- = 68% efficiency
147W input

The second unit draws from the wall 100W/0.80 = 125W. That is
25W of heat.

How does that difference affect the power supply design ?

1) I can use a shorter heatsink and keep my regular air volume
in CFM (cubic feet per minute).
2) I can use the same sized heatsink, and use a much slower fan.
(Well, the fan cannot get much slower and still be spinning.)
3) I can do a little of both, making the power supply a bit
lighter in terms of the weight, and making more room for
whatever fan solution the marketing department likes today.

The choices start with the core of the design. The fan size and
spacing, are determined by the choice made for the core of the
design. An 80%+ efficient design has a lot more room to move
stuff around inside the packaging, while a 68% design is
hard pressed to get enough heat sinks in there.

Seasonic calls their conversion method "forward conversion",
but in a quick check in Wikipedia and related links, forward
conversion looks very much like the method they all use.
I must be missing something, if "forward converters" are
something special. Still waiting to see an article that
explains how the Seasonic method works. I'm sure the other
fly-by-night companies would have copied this method by
now, unless it is covered by patents or licensing issues.
Maybe the parts cost is higher.

"HISTORY OF THE FORWARD CONVERTER", hints at the wide
variety of approaches that have been tried:

http://encon.fke.utm.my/nikd/latest/JulyHistory.pdf

"The two-transistor forward converter is a modern-day
standard for off-line power from 200 W to 1 kW. Many
companies use it as the basis of their product lines."

Paul
 
T

toronado455

kony said:
Neither are valid concerns because either with or without
the bottom fan, the air intake is still there unless you get
an only end-intake PSU instead.

I thought most PSU w/ 80mm were end-intake. At least most of mine are.
I have one Sparkle which has the vents in the bottom. But I believe
that neither of the two that I listed in my original posting has
air-intake vents in the bottom. But if anyone has information to the
contrary I would like to know.
 
K

kony

I thought most PSU w/ 80mm were end-intake. At least most of mine are.

Depends on the particular unit, there are tons of them with
80mm fan and bottom intake.

I have one Sparkle which has the vents in the bottom. But I believe
that neither of the two that I listed in my original posting has
air-intake vents in the bottom. But if anyone has information to the
contrary I would like to know.

The Sparkle probably has a row of slits along the back edge
of the bottom. Antecs often do have bottom intake but the
one linked is less common having the rear pusher fan in it.
These types of intake are better mated with a CPU heatsink
having a very large diameter fan so that fan helps to cool
the motherboard.
 
U

UCLAN

toronado455 said:
That's an excellent observation. But I'm not sure that is a valid
point. You would think that the engineers who design PSUs would be able
to redesign a PSU to use a 12cm fan in place of one or two 80cm fans
within the enclosure that is every bit as good.

An 80cm fan? Yikes! That's huge! How about 80mm? <g>
 
L

larry moe 'n curly

toronado455 said:
Given a choice between these two, which would you get?
FSP Group (Fortron Source) ATX400-PA, version 2.0, SATA, 400W Power
Supply - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817104952

Antec SmartPower 2.0 SP-400 400W Power Supply - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817103935

Those are two of the best brands, but Fortron-Source is probably a bit
better, and because it's $18 cheaper I'd definitely go with it. But
80mm fans tend to be louder than 120mm ones, so you may want to
consider this FSP 120mm model for $41.50:

www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104953

"RoHS" means it's much safer to lick its circuit board, but only after
the AC has been unplugged for 30 minutes, of course.

Some of the very few good websites for PSU reviews include:

www.jonnyguru.com
www.tomshardware.com
www.silentpcreview.com
www.xbitlabs.com
www.slcentral.com
 

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