WGA Questions

[kurttrail]

http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/downloads/FAQ.aspx:

"Windows Genuine Advantage is a program designed to increase customer
awareness and preference for genuine Windows XP software by highlighting
the value of genuine software over counterfeit or pirated installations.
The benefits of using genuine Windows include:"

"Greater reliability. Using genuine Microsoft software helps you stay up
to date with the features and enhancements that keep your PC running as
smoothly as possible."


How? Doesn't Automatic Update work the same for counterfeit and pirated
installations?


"Faster access to updates. Using genuine Microsoft software is the best
way to receive the latest product updates, product enhancement and
support from Microsoft."


Does WGA speed up my internet connection somehow? That would be a
pretty good trick!


"Overall richer experience. New innovations and offerings exclusively
reserved for genuine Microsoft software users help you keep pace with
the latest technology and constantly expand and improve the capabilities
of your PC."


PhotoStory 3 [ http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/offers/default.aspx ] is
one of the "offerings exclusively reserved" for those that have
voluntarily validated their OS, yet here is a link you can download it
without validating first. Doesn't seem all that exclusive to me.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/4/9/4/494AB2A4-1427-4ABC-9E75-472F7F2C146B/Pstory.msi

Isn't most of these reasons for WGA just pure marketing Bullsh*t?

What is MS trying to sell us with this Bullsh*t?


"Q.What information is collected from my machine?"

"A.The genuine validation process will collect information about your
system, such as Windows product key, PC manufacturer, and operating
system version, to determine if Windows is genuine. This process does
not collect or send any information that can be used to identify you or
contact you. The complete list of information collected in the
validation process is shown below:
OEM product key
PC Manufacturer
OS version
PID/SID
BIOS info (make, version, date)
BIOS MD5 Checksum"


Does flashing the BIOS trigger revalidation?


"Q.What information will Microsoft request from me as part of the
genuine validation process?"

"A.Microsoft may ask you to input some or all of the following
information during the genuine validation process:
Home, small business or enterprise user
Brand of PC
City where PC was purchased
Country/Region where PC was purchased
Place of PC purchase"


In what city/country/region do you purchase a Dell over the internet?
Where you are? Where Dell is?


"Microsoft does not collect any information during this process that can
be used to identify you or contact you."


Doesn't log the IP address you validated from?


"Q.How does Microsoft use this information?"

"A.The information is used for three purposes: Web page flow,
demographics, and to confirm user input. Web page flow means tailoring
pages presented based on the user's responses."


Sounds like info to try to sells us more stuff. Are different people
gonna see different things when viewing the same page?


"Demographic information helps Microsoft to understand regional
differences in Windows usage, and helps us tailor responses
appropriately."


Sounds like info to try to sells us more stuff. Who decides what is
appropriate, us people or MS? Are different people gonna see different
things when viewing the same page?


"User input is often compared against data collected from the PC in
order to determine whether to grant a user's request for additional
access."


How often is this gonna happen? Why should we have to? For a free
crappy program like PhotoStory 3? To get a special offer for web
hosting that is more expensive than the going rate?

Why should paying customers have to Activate and Validate? What will we
have to do for Microsoft next, just because we want to use the very
expensive software that was sold to us? Will we have to do the Hokey
Pokey, and turn ourselves around too!

When activation was introduced in Windows XP, I said MS wouldn't stop
there if people accept it. And guess what, I was right! Well MS won't
stop with validation, in a few more years, they'll add another dance for
its paying customers. Real pirates will get around all this Bullsh*t,
but the average paying customer will just get to learn a new MS dance
every few years.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[Vagabond Software]

http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/downloads/FAQ.aspx:

"Windows Genuine Advantage is a program designed to increase customer
awareness and preference for genuine Windows XP software by highlighting
the value of genuine software over counterfeit or pirated installations.
The benefits of using genuine Windows include:"

"Greater reliability. Using genuine Microsoft software helps you stay up
to date with the features and enhancements that keep your PC running as
smoothly as possible."


How? Doesn't Automatic Update work the same for counterfeit and pirated
installations?

Yes, automatic update probably will work exactly the same for pirated copies and legal copies. I have a feeling this may impact other integrated products like Media Player or the .NET Framework.

"Faster access to updates. Using genuine Microsoft software is the best
way to receive the latest product updates, product enhancement and
support from Microsoft."


Does WGA speed up my internet connection somehow? That would be a
pretty good trick!


"Overall richer experience. New innovations and offerings exclusively
reserved for genuine Microsoft software users help you keep pace with
the latest technology and constantly expand and improve the capabilities
of your PC."


PhotoStory 3 [ http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/offers/default.aspx ] is
one of the "offerings exclusively reserved" for those that have
voluntarily validated their OS, yet here is a link you can download it
without validating first. Doesn't seem all that exclusive to me.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/4/9/4/494AB2A4-1427-4ABC-9E75-472F7F2C146B/Pstory.msi

The program has not actually begun in earnest, has it? Even so, I have a feeling this is more geared for a year or two down the road rather than the current release of your little story book applet.

Isn't most of these reasons for WGA just pure marketing Bullsh*t?

Yes. I sounds, to me, partly aimed at making people who actually paid for Windows feel good about having paid for it.

What is MS trying to sell us with this Bullsh*t?

A legal copy of Windows.

"Q.What information is collected from my machine?"

"A.The genuine validation process will collect information about your
system, such as Windows product key, PC manufacturer, and operating
system version, to determine if Windows is genuine. This process does
not collect or send any information that can be used to identify you or
contact you. The complete list of information collected in the
validation process is shown below:
OEM product key
PC Manufacturer
OS version
PID/SID
BIOS info (make, version, date)
BIOS MD5 Checksum"


Does flashing the BIOS trigger revalidation?
No.

"Q.What information will Microsoft request from me as part of the
genuine validation process?"

"A.Microsoft may ask you to input some or all of the following
information during the genuine validation process:
Home, small business or enterprise user
Brand of PC
City where PC was purchased
Country/Region where PC was purchased
Place of PC purchase"


In what city/country/region do you purchase a Dell over the internet?
Where you are? Where Dell is?


"Microsoft does not collect any information during this process that can
be used to identify you or contact you."


Doesn't log the IP address you validated from?

I doubt it. That would be a pretty meaningless piece of information.

"Q.How does Microsoft use this information?"

"A.The information is used for three purposes: Web page flow,
demographics, and to confirm user input. Web page flow means tailoring
pages presented based on the user's responses."


Sounds like info to try to sells us more stuff. Are different people
gonna see different things when viewing the same page?

I hope so. If I search for "Record CD", I don't want to see any pages about Audio CDs or any other entertainment related content because that is not what I am looking for. Someone else using the same search words may be looking for exactly that content.

"Demographic information helps Microsoft to understand regional
differences in Windows usage, and helps us tailor responses
appropriately."


Sounds like info to try to sells us more stuff. Who decides what is
appropriate, us people or MS? Are different people gonna see different
things when viewing the same page?

Didn't we just go over this. There are many Windows users in India and Asia and that trend is surging. I may not want to wade through the first three pages of Indian/Asian content because they eventually become the more numerous users of Windows.

"User input is often compared against data collected from the PC in
order to determine whether to grant a user's request for additional
access."


How often is this gonna happen? Why should we have to? For a free
crappy program like PhotoStory 3? To get a special offer for web
hosting that is more expensive than the going rate?

Why should paying customers have to Activate and Validate? What will we
have to do for Microsoft next, just because we want to use the very
expensive software that was sold to us? Will we have to do the Hokey
Pokey, and turn ourselves around too!

When activation was introduced in Windows XP, I said MS wouldn't stop
there if people accept it. And guess what, I was right! Well MS won't
stop with validation, in a few more years, they'll add another dance for
its paying customers. Real pirates will get around all this Bullsh*t,
but the average paying customer will just get to learn a new MS dance
every few years.

--

I've been around computers and software a very long time, so I guess that's why I don't share your 'shock' at Microsoft's little activation scheme. I have X.25 software from Sun Microsystems that costs almost ten times as much as Microsoft's entire operating system, and I can't reinstall it or move it to another machine without calling Sun Microsystems and giving them personally identifiable information, like my name. I would've paid Sun extra just for the privilege of being able to activate over the Internet.

Redhat Linux is freely available, but you have to pay to receive automatic patches for the numerous bugs and security vulnerabilities, but I don't see and hear the same hanky-wringing about general Internet security due to Redhat's policy of leaving non-paying customers out in the cold.

IBM won't even sell you a copy of OS/2 Warp version 4, but they'll lease it to you for a year.

Like I said, it's all a mixed bag and no one cares because most people have legal working copies of Windows and the entire WGA and Activation schemes are painless and/or completely unnoticed by most users.

carl

 

[kurttrail]

http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/downloads/FAQ.aspx:

"Windows Genuine Advantage is a program designed to increase customer
awareness and preference for genuine Windows XP software by
highlighting the value of genuine software over counterfeit or
pirated installations. The benefits of using genuine Windows
include:"

"Greater reliability. Using genuine Microsoft software helps you
stay up to date with the features and enhancements that keep your PC
running as smoothly as possible."


How? Doesn't Automatic Update work the same for counterfeit and
pirated installations?

Yes, automatic update probably will work exactly the same for pirated
copies and legal copies. I have a feeling this may impact other
integrated products like Media Player or the .NET Framework.

"Faster access to updates. Using genuine Microsoft software is the
best way to receive the latest product updates, product enhancement
and support from Microsoft."


Does WGA speed up my internet connection somehow? That would be a
pretty good trick!


"Overall richer experience. New innovations and offerings exclusively
reserved for genuine Microsoft software users help you keep pace with
the latest technology and constantly expand and improve the
capabilities of your PC."


PhotoStory 3 [ http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/offers/default.aspx
] is one of the "offerings exclusively reserved" for those that have
voluntarily validated their OS, yet here is a link you can download
it without validating first. Doesn't seem all that exclusive to me.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/4/9/4/494AB2A4-1427-4ABC-9E75-472F7F2C146B/Pstory.msi

The program has not actually begun in earnest, has it? Even so, I
have a feeling this is more geared for a year or two down the road
rather than the current release of your little story book applet.

Yeah, it hasn't, but MS ballyhoos this little app as one of the perks
for those that voluntarily validate. So when MS does move to mandatory
validation, either their dowloads will be accessable by go to a direct
link, or MS will have to move their download to a secure server and that
will slow down getting downloads compared to now, if only slightly.

Yes. I sounds, to me, partly aimed at making people who actually
paid for Windows feel good about having paid for it.


A legal copy of Windows.

LOL! Say a small computer builder reuses OEM Keys on its computers,
say 10 computers to a Key. Which of those 10 has the Genuine copy? Are
the other 9 guilty of infringement or violating the EULA, or is it the
small ccomputer builder, that sells his computers at computer shows?

No.

You say that so emphatically. How do you know?

And if you buy a Dell over the phone, is the city/country/region of
purchase where the call center is located?

I doubt it.

My web site has a log of the IP addresses that view my pages.

That would be a pretty meaningless piece of information.

LOL! Not when compared to MS's passport database. The validation
process may not be able to indentify someone by IP, but when compared
with other MS databases, MS could identify many.

I hope so. If I search for "Record CD", I don't want to see any
pages about Audio CDs or any other entertainment related content
because that is not what I am looking for. Someone else using the
same search words may be looking for exactly that content.

I mean clicking a link to information about a product, am I going see on
thing and my next door neighbor see another? How about looking for
support info? Different info based on the WGA info validation supplied?

Didn't we just go over this. There are many Windows users in India
and Asia and that trend is surging. I may not want to wade through
the first three pages of Indian/Asian content because they eventually
become the more numerous users of Windows.

Yeah, web page flow and demograhics do seem rather the same. I guess
that MS need 3 things to use the info for, to match the 3 supposed
advantages of WGA. I guess MS doesn't know that bad things happen in
3's, not good things.

I've been around computers and software a very long time, so I guess
that's why I don't share your 'shock' at Microsoft's little
activation scheme. I have X.25 software from Sun Microsystems that
costs almost ten times as much as Microsoft's entire operating
system, and I can't reinstall it or move it to another machine
without calling Sun Microsystems and giving them personally
identifiable information, like my name. I would've paid Sun extra
just for the privilege of being able to activate over the Internet.

Redhat Linux is freely available, but you have to pay to receive
automatic patches for the numerous bugs and security vulnerabilities,
but I don't see and hear the same hanky-wringing about general
Internet security due to Redhat's policy of leaving non-paying
customers out in the cold.

IBM won't even sell you a copy of OS/2 Warp version 4, but they'll
lease it to you for a year.

Like I said, it's all a mixed bag and no one cares because most
people have legal working copies of Windows and the entire WGA and
Activation schemes are painless and/or completely unnoticed by most
users.

As MS adds more and more dances every few years consumers are gonna
start noticing. The people that have had problems with PA errors,
already have.

But hey, if people keep putting up this crap, in 50 years, they might
just have to give a DNA sample, just to use the products that were sold
to them.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[Vagabond Software]

http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/downloads/FAQ.aspx:

"Windows Genuine Advantage is a program designed to increase customer
awareness and preference for genuine Windows XP software by
highlighting the value of genuine software over counterfeit or
pirated installations. The benefits of using genuine Windows
include:"

"Greater reliability. Using genuine Microsoft software helps you
stay up to date with the features and enhancements that keep your PC
running as smoothly as possible."


How? Doesn't Automatic Update work the same for counterfeit and
pirated installations?

Yes, automatic update probably will work exactly the same for pirated
copies and legal copies. I have a feeling this may impact other
integrated products like Media Player or the .NET Framework.

"Faster access to updates. Using genuine Microsoft software is the
best way to receive the latest product updates, product enhancement
and support from Microsoft."


Does WGA speed up my internet connection somehow? That would be a
pretty good trick!


"Overall richer experience. New innovations and offerings exclusively
reserved for genuine Microsoft software users help you keep pace with
the latest technology and constantly expand and improve the
capabilities of your PC."


PhotoStory 3 [ http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/offers/default.aspx
] is one of the "offerings exclusively reserved" for those that have
voluntarily validated their OS, yet here is a link you can download
it without validating first. Doesn't seem all that exclusive to me.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/4/9/4/494AB2A4-1427-4ABC-9E75-472F7F2C146B/Pstory.msi

The program has not actually begun in earnest, has it? Even so, I
have a feeling this is more geared for a year or two down the road
rather than the current release of your little story book applet.

Yeah, it hasn't, but MS ballyhoos this little app as one of the perks
for those that voluntarily validate. So when MS does move to mandatory
validation, either their dowloads will be accessable by go to a direct
link, or MS will have to move their download to a secure server and that
will slow down getting downloads compared to now, if only slightly.

Yes. I sounds, to me, partly aimed at making people who actually
paid for Windows feel good about having paid for it.


A legal copy of Windows.

LOL! Say a small computer builder reuses OEM Keys on its computers,
say 10 computers to a Key. Which of those 10 has the Genuine copy? Are
the other 9 guilty of infringement or violating the EULA, or is it the
small ccomputer builder, that sells his computers at computer shows?

Obviously, the builder is in clear violation of the law. In your example, that would be a criminal violation (rather than civil). Only one of the hapless purchasers of computer show equipment would have a legal version of Windows, if that many. The other nine would have to pursue obtaining one of those "discounted" copies we keep hearing about or just order an OEM copy from eDirectSoftware.com.

You say that so emphatically. How do you know?

I flash BIOS ROMs all the time. In fact, I just flashed the BIOS on a piece of crap SOYO (no, I didn't sell someone a SOYO board) motherboard in a system that I had activated over the Internet only a day before. There was no problem or reactivation required. In fact, I have even completed blanked out a BIOS on an ASUS P4P800-VM, sheepishly exchanged it for a new P4P800-VM and installed it in the system that I had just activated that day or the day before. All went well with no re-activation necessary.

And if you buy a Dell over the phone, is the city/country/region of
purchase where the call center is located?

I don't know, ask Microsoft when you buy your Dell! In any event, don't tell them the truth and say Kuala Lumpur unless you actually do live in Malaysia.

My web site has a log of the IP addresses that view my pages.


LOL! Not when compared to MS's passport database. The validation
process may not be able to indentify someone by IP, but when compared
with other MS databases, MS could identify many.

Yes, my web-server also logs IP addresses and it is a pretty meaningless bit of information. So let's say Microsoft has my IP address... now what? My IP address changes because it is dynamic, I might move, I might be a traveling salesman hawking cheap computers at computer shows who has an entirely different IP address every week. I still believe the IP address is a fairly meaningly piece of information, even for one like mine that hasn't changed in four years.

I mean clicking a link to information about a product, am I going see on
thing and my next door neighbor see another? How about looking for
support info? Different info based on the WGA info validation supplied?


Yeah, web page flow and demograhics do seem rather the same. I guess
that MS need 3 things to use the info for, to match the 3 supposed
advantages of WGA. I guess MS doesn't know that bad things happen in
3's, not good things.


As MS adds more and more dances every few years consumers are gonna
start noticing. The people that have had problems with PA errors,
already have.

But hey, if people keep putting up this crap, in 50 years, they might
just have to give a DNA sample, just to use the products that were sold
to them.

--

In 1997, I was sure that "in five years" we would all be paying annual subscriptions to access our application software. In other words, I might have to pay $10 per month to use Outlook, Word, and Excel, but somone who also wanted PowerPoint and Access would pay $25 per month. Frankly, I'm shocked we're no where near that.

I still don't know your grievances against WGA and PA. How does it impact you?

carl

 

[kurttrail]

message http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/downloads/FAQ.aspx:

"Windows Genuine Advantage is a program designed to increase
customer awareness and preference for genuine Windows XP software
by highlighting the value of genuine software over counterfeit or
pirated installations. The benefits of using genuine Windows
include:"

"Greater reliability. Using genuine Microsoft software helps you
stay up to date with the features and enhancements that keep your
PC running as smoothly as possible."


How? Doesn't Automatic Update work the same for counterfeit and
pirated installations?

Yes, automatic update probably will work exactly the same for
pirated copies and legal copies. I have a feeling this may impact
other integrated products like Media Player or the .NET Framework.


"Faster access to updates. Using genuine Microsoft software is the
best way to receive the latest product updates, product enhancement
and support from Microsoft."


Does WGA speed up my internet connection somehow? That would be a
pretty good trick!


"Overall richer experience. New innovations and offerings
exclusively reserved for genuine Microsoft software users help you
keep pace with the latest technology and constantly expand and
improve the capabilities of your PC."


PhotoStory 3 [ http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/offers/default.aspx
] is one of the "offerings exclusively reserved" for those that
have voluntarily validated their OS, yet here is a link you can
download it without validating first. Doesn't seem all that
exclusive to me.

http://download.microsoft.com/download/4/9/4/494AB2A4-1427-4ABC-9E75-472F7F2C146B/Pstory.msi


The program has not actually begun in earnest, has it? Even so, I
have a feeling this is more geared for a year or two down the road
rather than the current release of your little story book applet.

Yeah, it hasn't, but MS ballyhoos this little app as one of the perks
for those that voluntarily validate. So when MS does move to
mandatory validation, either their dowloads will be accessable by go
to a direct link, or MS will have to move their download to a secure
server and that will slow down getting downloads compared to now, if
only slightly.

Isn't most of these reasons for WGA just pure marketing Bullsh*t?

Yes. I sounds, to me, partly aimed at making people who actually
paid for Windows feel good about having paid for it.


What is MS trying to sell us with this Bullsh*t?

A legal copy of Windows.

LOL! Say a small computer builder reuses OEM Keys on its computers,
say 10 computers to a Key. Which of those 10 has the Genuine copy?
Are the other 9 guilty of infringement or violating the EULA, or is
it the small ccomputer builder, that sells his computers at computer
shows?

Obviously, the builder is in clear violation of the law. In your
example, that would be a criminal violation (rather than civil).
Only one of the hapless purchasers of computer show equipment would
have a legal version of Windows, if that many. The other nine would
have to pursue obtaining one of those "discounted" copies we keep
hearing about or just order an OEM copy from eDirectSoftware.com.

MS "discounted." The OEM copy will still probably be cheaper. And
which of the 10 customers is the lucky one, or does MS force all ten to
buy a new OS?

I flash BIOS ROMs all the time. In fact, I just flashed the BIOS on
a piece of crap SOYO (no, I didn't sell someone a SOYO board)
motherboard in a system that I had activated over the Internet only a
day before. There was no problem or reactivation required. In fact,
I have even completed blanked out a BIOS on an ASUS P4P800-VM,
sheepishly exchanged it for a new P4P800-VM and installed it in the
system that I had just activated that day or the day before. All
went well with no re-activation necessary.

But I was talking about WGA VALIDATION, not PA. WGA gives MS both, BIOS
info (make, version, date) and BIOS MD5 Checksum. So if that changes,
and some motherboard manufacturers release BIOS updates quite
frequently, do you have to re-VALIDATE for WGA?

See how confusing it gets. Most users don't understand how PA works,
and now MS is adding to the confusion with WGA.

And I've seen on a friend's computer where a BIOS update did trigger PA
too. And ask Yves Leclerc, a regular poster here, how a driver update
set off PA, forcing reactivation.

I don't know, ask Microsoft when you buy your Dell! In any event,
don't tell them the truth and say Kuala Lumpur unless you actually do
live in Malaysia.

And if the first time you Validate you say one thing, and the next time,
after a reinstall, you say another, what happens then? No revalidation?

Yes, my web-server also logs IP addresses and it is a pretty
meaningless bit of information.

It is unless you have access to other databases to compare it with

So let's say Microsoft has my IP
address... now what? My IP address changes because it is dynamic, I
might move, I might be a traveling salesman hawking cheap computers
at computer shows who has an entirely different IP address every
week.

But if you have a MS Passport, and MSN is your startup page, which is
defaulted by the OS, and XP nags people into getting a Passport, they
can compare their WGA server logs with the MS passport server logs, and
figure out who many people are, especially those with broadband where
they IP addresses don't change all that often.

I still believe the IP address is a fairly meaningly piece of
information, even for one like mine that hasn't changed in four
years.

Do you have a MS Passport?

In 1997, I was sure that "in five years" we would all be paying
annual subscriptions to access our application software. In other
words, I might have to pay $10 per month to use Outlook, Word, and
Excel, but somone who also wanted PowerPoint and Access would pay $25
per month. Frankly, I'm shocked we're no where near that.

I still don't know your grievances against WGA and PA. How does it
impact you?

It does nothing for me. Windows Messager does nothing for me, and I
uninstall it.

PA and WGA are totally unnecessary to the End User, and just adds
another element in MS software that can cause grief to the End User. MS
software screws up enough without more layers of bullsh*t, that does
nothing for the End User.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[Alias]

It does nothing for me. Windows Messager does nothing for me, and I
uninstall it.

PA and WGA are totally unnecessary to the End User, and just adds
another element in MS software that can cause grief to the End User. MS
software screws up enough without more layers of bullsh*t, that does
nothing for the End User.

--
Peace!
Kurt <<<<<<

I agree. The crackers will get around it and the people who pay for XP are
left with the bag of trying to figure out what to do with all these so
called anti piracy efforts on the part of MS. It makes you think that MS
likes being disliked by their customers.

 

[Vagabond Software]

MS "discounted." The OEM copy will still probably be cheaper. And
which of the 10 customers is the lucky one, or does MS force all ten to
buy a new OS?

Hell if I know. Call Microsoft and ask them.

But I was talking about WGA VALIDATION, not PA. WGA gives MS both, BIOS
info (make, version, date) and BIOS MD5 Checksum. So if that changes,
and some motherboard manufacturers release BIOS updates quite
frequently, do you have to re-VALIDATE for WGA?

See how confusing it gets. Most users don't understand how PA works,
and now MS is adding to the confusion with WGA.

And I've seen on a friend's computer where a BIOS update did trigger PA
too. And ask Yves Leclerc, a regular poster here, how a driver update
set off PA, forcing reactivation.

So, reactivate! I don't understand what the difficulty is here.

And if the first time you Validate you say one thing, and the next time,
after a reinstall, you say another, what happens then? No revalidation?

Look, rather than try and dream up all these fringe scenarios, it's better to work in the realm of reality. Like I tell all of my clients who buy hardware from me, the Product Key is your proof of purchase regardless of any other circumstances. I have yet to sell a copy of Microsoft Windows that did not have its own unique Product Key.

Do you have a MS Passport?

Yes, I have three for my own use and have registered dozens of passport accounts from this IP address just in the last few weeks. Of course, then the systems got delivered to various regions from Azusa to Tijuana where the computers and the Passport accounts will actually be used. See how meaningless the IP address is as a piece of information?

It does nothing for me. Windows Messager does nothing for me, and I
uninstall it.

PA and WGA are totally unnecessary to the End User, and just adds
another element in MS software that can cause grief to the End User. MS
software screws up enough without more layers of bullsh*t, that does
nothing for the End User.

--

Of course they are unnecessary to the end user. Copy protection on CDs and DVDs are totally unnecesary to the end-user. The Autodesk license server is totally unnecessary to users of AutoCAD, except they can't run their software without it! Yes, end-users of Microsoft products have been shouldering the consequences of software piracy for years now. I am confused by your shock that Microsoft might deploy their software with some sort of copy-protection, and I am unconvinced by your crocodile tears for the average end-user.

I actually service computers for residential and commercial users, and I can tell you that these users are victimized far more frequently by software pirates than by Microsoft. Yes, the hackers will still get around all of this, and they will still be the usual suspects; small-time tinkerers with a toolbox of various software cheats and workarounds but otherwise incapable of keeping a point-n-click operating system stable and secure. However, at least legal end-users will be able to immediately identify whether or not your friends at the computer show have sold them an illegal copy of Windows with, perhaps, a backdoor trojan pre-installed as well.

carl

 

[kurttrail]

Hell if I know. Call Microsoft and ask them.

LOL! I think I already know there answer. They'd want the money from
all 10.

Don't have an answer? How many times will people need to reValidate and
why?

So, reactivate! I don't understand what the difficulty is here.

It's that PA doesn't always work as it is supposed too.

Here is an incomplete list of Licensing Check errors that can happen
with PA, where a user wouldn't be able to reactivate



0x80090006


0x80070002


0x80004005


0X800700C1


0x8007007e


0x80070003


0x80090019


0x8007007f

Look, rather than try and dream up all these fringe scenarios, it's
better to work in the realm of reality. Like I tell all of my
clients who buy hardware from me, the Product Key is your proof of
purchase regardless of any other circumstances. I have yet to sell a
copy of Microsoft Windows that did not have its own unique Product
Key.

LOL! So say you change your business name, and your customer puts down
the new name when reValidating, it's OK that MS will incoveniences them
for being truthful?

Yes, I have three for my own use and have registered dozens of
passport accounts from this IP address just in the last few weeks.
Of course, then the systems got delivered to various regions from
Azusa to Tijuana where the computers and the Passport accounts will
actually be used. See how meaningless the IP address is as a piece
of information?

And every time so when they contect to the passport server from Tijuana,
MS Passpost still logs your IP address? And when they validate from
Tijuana, MS will log your IP address?

No.

Of course they are unnecessary to the end user. Copy protection on
CDs and DVDs are totally unnecesary to the end-user.

And not one individual has been charged, let alone convicted for
circumventing copy-protection for their own fair use.

Even the DMCA protects the cirvcumvention of copyprotection for a fair
use.

"Other Rights, Etc., Not Affected.-(1) Nothing in this section [DMCA]
shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright
infringement, including fair use, under this title." -
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sec_17_00001201----000-.html

And as the Supreme Court has said, "Any individual may reproduce a
copyrighted work for a "fair use"; the copyright owner does not possess
the exclusive right to such a use." -
http://laws.findlaw.com/us/464/417.html

Now this wouldn't affect, businesses. They cannot legally circumvent
copy-protection, or sell something that does, but individuals have
rights to fairly use the copyrighted material that they have legal
access to that business don't.

The Autodesk
license server is totally unnecessary to users of AutoCAD, except
they can't run their software without it! Yes, end-users of
Microsoft products have been shouldering the consequences of software
piracy for years now. I am confused by your shock that Microsoft
might deploy their software with some sort of copy-protection, and I
am unconvinced by your crocodile tears for the average end-user.

How many copy-protection schemes is enough before it becomes more
intrusive? In four years MS will have introduced 2 copy-protection
schemes on the same product, howm many will there be on their OS in
eight years from now. How many hoops must MS's PAYING customers jump
through for MS?

I actually service computers for residential and commercial users,
and I can tell you that these users are victimized far more
frequently by software pirates than by Microsoft.

Yet MS expects the victims to pay not the pirates.

Yes, the hackers
will still get around all of this, and they will still be the usual
suspects; small-time tinkerers with a toolbox of various software
cheats and workarounds but otherwise incapable of keeping a
point-n-click operating system stable and secure.

LOL! How many people running geniune MS OS can't keep a "point-n-click
operating system stable and secure?" WGA doesn't do anything to really
protect the paying customer. It's about protecting MS's cash flow.

However, at least
legal end-users will be able to immediately identify whether or not
your friends at the computer show have sold them an illegal copy of
Windows with, perhaps, a backdoor trojan pre-installed as well.

People get trojans running WGA OSs too. And in the case of the vender
that sells the same OS ten times, at least the first customer to
Validate will think they have a legal copy, although they might have
been the last customer to purchase that same copy.

WGA flawed right off the bat.

And let's not mention retail customers, whose product key may be
generated by the XP Keygen! If someone who gets their key through the
keygen validates it first, the valid user of that key will be
inconvenienced until they can prove that they have are the valid user.

Guilty until proven innocent. Tis' the French and Microsoft way!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[Vagabond Software]

LOL! I think I already know there answer. They'd want the money from
all 10.

If the reseller wasn't selling legal licenses, of course all ten would have to buy legal licenses to use the software. That is true with every piece of licensed software.

Don't have an answer? How many times will people need to reValidate and
why?

Who cares? Validation takes all of five seconds. However, we'll know the answer later tonight when I flash a BIOS, install a video card, and attempt to download the anti-spyware beta.

It's that PA doesn't always work as it is supposed too.

Here is an incomplete list of Licensing Check errors that can happen
with PA, where a user wouldn't be able to reactivate



0x80090006


0x80070002


0x80004005


0X800700C1


0x8007007e


0x80070003


0x80090019


0x8007007f

Again, so what? If I received one of these errors, I would call in with my product key. What's the problem?

LOL! So say you change your business name, and your customer puts down
the new name when reValidating, it's OK that MS will incoveniences them
for being truthful?

What are you talking about? I'm sorry, but the name of my business or any other business is not necessary for product validation. In addition to running the ActiveX validation component, my customers can use the "compare security features" method to validate against the sticker I have affixed in a conspicuous location on the outside of their new computers, and they can also compare against their genuine hologram CD that I provide with every system I sell.

My name, their name, my company name, their comany name... all irrelevant for validating genuine Microsoft products.

And every time so when they contect to the passport server from Tijuana,
MS Passpost still logs your IP address? And when they validate from
Tijuana, MS will log your IP address?

No.

Exactly my point! The IP address is meaningless. Who cares what IP address is logged on the MS web-server? I install Adobe Reader on dozens of machines and my IP address is logged on their web-server when I download the install file, but the end-users IP address will be logged by the Adobe web-server when they go to update their Adobe Reader. Who cares? It's a meaningless number.

Of course they are unnecessary to the end user. Copy protection on
CDs and DVDs are totally unnecesary to the end-user.

And not one individual has been charged, let alone convicted for
circumventing copy-protection for their own fair use.

Even the DMCA protects the cirvcumvention of copyprotection for a fair
use.

"Other Rights, Etc., Not Affected.-(1) Nothing in this section [DMCA]
shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright
infringement, including fair use, under this title." -
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sec_17_00001201----000-.html

And as the Supreme Court has said, "Any individual may reproduce a
copyrighted work for a "fair use"; the copyright owner does not possess
the exclusive right to such a use." -
http://laws.findlaw.com/us/464/417.html

Now this wouldn't affect, businesses. They cannot legally circumvent
copy-protection, or sell something that does, but individuals have
rights to fairly use the copyrighted material that they have legal
access to that business don't.

That's wonderful! So, your vendor selling unlicensed copies of Windows at the computer show would be legally liable while the victimized end-users would be protected from prosecution. It sounds like the system is working.

How many copy-protection schemes is enough before it becomes more
intrusive? In four years MS will have introduced 2 copy-protection
schemes on the same product, howm many will there be on their OS in
eight years from now. How many hoops must MS's PAYING customers jump
through for MS?

If not the subscription service, software products may go the way of many new games. The license key will need to be validated over the Internet to receive patches or even to permit use of the software. At least, that is my prediction.

Yet MS expects the victims to pay not the pirates.

The victims already did pay, but they paid the pirates; that's why they are victims. Microsoft wants the end-users to get what they paid for, and so do I. Personally, I hope they do away with this "Restore CD" crap that OEMs are selling with their hardware. That is a true injustice and real material grievance.

LOL! How many people running geniune MS OS can't keep a "point-n-click
operating system stable and secure?" WGA doesn't do anything to really
protect the paying customer. It's about protecting MS's cash flow.

How does WGA affect MS cash flow? I'm a paying customer, and I have a CD and a product key. There is certainly a level of protection in that. Whether I need to use the Recovery Console or install Internet Information Services to develop applications with the .NET Framework, I'm secure in knowing that I have full access and privilege to use those applications. Also, I'm setting up many of my small business users with Microsoft's Anti-Spyware tool rather than paying for additional Adaware licenses.

By the way, do you think it is appropriate that some businesses are running Adaware SE Personal on their commercial computers? How do you feel about personal and professional end-users that continue to use unlicensed copies of Winzip well beyond the 30 day "shareware" period?

People get trojans running WGA OSs too. And in the case of the vender
that sells the same OS ten times, at least the first customer to
Validate will think they have a legal copy, although they might have
been the last customer to purchase that same copy.

WGA flawed right off the bat.

And let's not mention retail customers, whose product key may be
generated by the XP Keygen! If someone who gets their key through the
keygen validates it first, the valid user of that key will be
inconvenienced until they can prove that they have are the valid user.

Guilty until proven innocent. Tis' the French and Microsoft way!

And the way of every tax paying American, and the way of everyone who has ever received a traffic ticket, and so on and so forth...

carl

 

[kurttrail]

If the reseller wasn't selling legal licenses, of course all ten
would have to buy legal licenses to use the software. That is true
with every piece of licensed software.

Yet MS was paid for one license. And then gets paid for 11 copies for
10 people?

Who cares?

People that don't want to get nagged. People that believe that they
should be considered innocent until proven guilty.

Validation takes all of five seconds.

The first time. How about the second time validating with the same
Product Key?

However, we'll
know the answer later tonight when I flash a BIOS, install a video
card, and attempt to download the anti-spyware beta.
http://download.microsoft.com/downl...-fca2f2c6f0cc/MicrosoftAntiSpywareInstall.exe


Again, so what? If I received one of these errors, I would call in
with my product key. What's the problem?

The problem would be that that wouldn't work, as you couldn't log in to
activate by internet or by phone.

What are you talking about? I'm sorry, but the name of my business
or any other business is not necessary for product validation.

"Q.What information will Microsoft request from me as part of the
genuine validation process?"

"A.Microsoft may ask you to input some or all of the following
information during the genuine validation process:
Home, small business or enterprise user
Brand of PC
City where PC was purchased
Country/Region where PC was purchased
Place of PC purchase"

Place of purchase.

In
addition to running the ActiveX validation component, my customers
can use the "compare security features" method to validate against
the sticker I have affixed in a conspicuous location on the outside
of their new computers, and they can also compare against their
genuine hologram CD that I provide with every system I sell.

LOL! And then they don't have to validate with the WGA ActiveX
component.

My name, their name, my company name, their comany name... all
irrelevant for validating genuine Microsoft products.

Not if you read the WGA FAQ.

Exactly my point! The IP address is meaningless.

No it's not. Their logging on to the Passport server can identify them,
and if they validate, all MS has to do is compare the WGA server logs
with the Passport logs.

Who cares what IP
address is logged on the MS web-server? I install Adobe Reader on
dozens of machines and my IP address is logged on their web-server
when I download the install file, but the end-users IP address will
be logged by the Adobe web-server when they go to update their Adobe
Reader. Who cares? It's a meaningless number.

Not for people with broadband whose IP Address rarely changes. Not for
MSN customers.

It does nothing for me. Windows Messager does nothing for me, and
I uninstall it.

PA and WGA are totally unnecessary to the End User, and just adds
another element in MS software that can cause grief to the End
User. MS software screws up enough without more layers of
bullsh*t, that does nothing for the End User.

And not one individual has been charged, let alone convicted for
circumventing copy-protection for their own fair use.

Even the DMCA protects the cirvcumvention of copyprotection for a
fair use.

"Other Rights, Etc., Not Affected.-(1) Nothing in this section [DMCA]
shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright
infringement, including fair use, under this title." -
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sec_17_00001201----000-.html

And as the Supreme Court has said, "Any individual may reproduce a
copyrighted work for a "fair use"; the copyright owner does not
possess the exclusive right to such a use." -
http://laws.findlaw.com/us/464/417.html

Now this wouldn't affect, businesses. They cannot legally circumvent
copy-protection, or sell something that does, but individuals have
rights to fairly use the copyrighted material that they have legal
access to that business don't.

That's wonderful! So, your vendor selling unlicensed copies of
Windows at the computer show would be legally liable while the
victimized end-users would be protected from prosecution. It sounds
like the system is working.

Yet MS will still disallow 9 out of the 10 easy access to updates, and
never go after the real crook.

If not the subscription service, software products may go the way of
many new games. The license key will need to be validated over the
Internet to receive patches or even to permit use of the software.
At least, that is my prediction.

That doesn't seem the root MS is taking.

The victims already did pay, but they paid the pirates; that's why
they are victims. Microsoft wants the end-users to get what they
paid for, and so do I.

And pay for it twice. If MS were truely serious, they go after those
selling the illegal software, not the victims!

Personally, I hope they do away with this
"Restore CD" crap that OEMs are selling with their hardware. That is
a true injustice and real material grievance.

I agree, but it has nothing to do with WGA.

How does WGA affect MS cash flow? I'm a paying customer, and I have
a CD and a product key. There is certainly a level of protection in
that. Whether I need to use the Recovery Console or install Internet
Information Services to develop applications with the .NET Framework,
I'm secure in knowing that I have full access and privilege to use
those applications. Also, I'm setting up many of my small business
users with Microsoft's Anti-Spyware tool rather than paying for
additional Adaware licenses.

Adaware is free for personal use. And you might want to read this link
before setting up your customers with MS Anti-Spyware tool.

http://msn.com.com/2100-1009_22-5569429.html?part=msn&subj=ns_2543&tag=mymsn

By the way, do you think it is appropriate that some businesses are
running Adaware SE Personal on their commercial computers?
Nope.

How do
you feel about personal and professional end-users that continue to
use unlicensed copies of Winzip well beyond the 30 day "shareware"
period?

That is copyright infringement, and WinZip should go after those that do
in court.

And the way of every tax paying American, and the way of everyone who
has ever received a traffic ticket, and so on and so forth...

LOL! You have the right to a trial before you are considered guilty of
tax evasion, or a traffic violation, so what the hell are you talking
about.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[Vagabond Software]

Adaware is free for personal use. And you might want to read this link
before setting up your customers with MS Anti-Spyware tool.

http://msn.com.com/2100-1009_22-5569429.html?part=msn&subj=ns_2543&tag=mymsn

A trojan? Please! My commercial customers don't need to lose any sleep worrying about worms or trojans. Obviously, if a user has a trojan virus, a disabled spyware scanner is the least of their worries.

LOL! You have the right to a trial before you are considered guilty of
tax evasion, or a traffic violation, so what the hell are you talking
about.

The California Franchise Tax Board must've missed that part of the law. I failed to pay the appropriate level of taxes in 1996 and was saddled with penalties before I even knew I hadn't paid the correct amount, let lone been to a trial.

The same was true for my last parking ticket. I was presumed guilty and expected to pay the amount specified on the ticket long before any court appearances.

Look, I've had real grievances with software companies in the past, like the robber barons at Netscape and the privacy raiders at Real Networks. I have stopped using their products entirely. If something I want to see or hear requires a Real Networks product with no alternative, I do without. That's the way the world works and that's my perogative.

I have two suggestions for you. First, if you are personally put upon by Microsoft's copy protection, then don't use their products. Also, if you are truly concerned for the end-users, do more in your community to educate people on how to confirm their legal license to use their software and how to spot possible fraudulent vendors.

Microsoft, appropriately, has no enforcement capabilities in this area. The are limited proactive approaches available to Microsoft or any software company. One is a public education program that make end-users more wary of illegal software and use of that software less attractive. Another would be to strictly dictate who shall sell a legal MS product and under what circumstances that product can be sold. This is the path of Apple and Sun, and the path to marginal existance as is evidenced by those companies.

carl

 

[kurttrail]

A trojan? Please! My commercial customers don't need to lose any
sleep worrying about worms or trojans. Obviously, if a user has a
trojan virus, a disabled spyware scanner is the least of their
worries.


The California Franchise Tax Board must've missed that part of the
law. I failed to pay the appropriate level of taxes in 1996 and was
saddled with penalties before I even knew I hadn't paid the correct
amount, let lone been to a trial.

The same was true for my last parking ticket. I was presumed guilty
and expected to pay the amount specified on the ticket long before
any court appearances.

Look, I've had real grievances with software companies in the past,
like the robber barons at Netscape and the privacy raiders at Real
Networks. I have stopped using their products entirely. If
something I want to see or hear requires a Real Networks product with
no alternative, I do without. That's the way the world works and
that's my perogative.

That is all well and good for you, but the average computer ill-literate
user, doesn't have much choice but use a MS OS, without purchasing new
hardware and software that they already have bought over the years.

I have two suggestions for you. First, if you are personally put
upon by Microsoft's copy protection, then don't use their products.

I could care less about me, I know MS's stupid-assed policies better
than most. And I believe I have already demonstrated my ability to get
around WGA.

I care more about the average person who doesn't understand all the MS
BS policies, and ends up buying the same software more than once.

Also, if you are truly concerned for the end-users, do more in your
community to educate people on how to confirm their legal license to
use their software and how to spot possible fraudulent vendors.

LOL! There is a sucker born every minute, and MS uses their rules to
prey on those suckers.

Microsoft, appropriately, has no enforcement capabilities in this
area.

Bull! They are members of the BSA. If they were truely into stopping
REAL piracy, then the BSA members would place an embargo on those
countries that have weak enforcement. But MS is in bed with countries
like China.

Consumers already pay the price of piracy in the procucts they buy, and
they aren't getting any price break for PA and WGA. So in effect, they
are paying for piracy three time. Once included in the price of piracy.
Twice, in having to waste their time, and having to play the Russian
Roulette game of Licensing Check errors. And now MS is gonna impose a
third cost of piracy to their paying customers, with wasting their time
with WGA, and the errors it is likely to generate. I have already seen
problems in this group where a users could get WGA Validation to run on
one of their computers, and when it becomes mandatory, people will be
wasting their time resolving such issues just to get their updates.

The are limited proactive approaches available to Microsoft or
any software company.

That's what the courts are for! For criminal piracy, that is what law
enforcement is for.

One is a public education program that make
end-users more wary of illegal software and use of that software less
attractive.

LOL! These are the same people that can't organize their All Programs
menu! It's not up to the paying customer to help the software
manufacterer to fight piracy.

Another would be to strictly dictate who shall sell a
legal MS product and under what circumstances that product can be
sold.

Yep. MS needs to do that.

This is the path of Apple and Sun, and the path to marginal
existance as is evidenced by those companies.

LOL! That's right, MS wants its cake and eat it too.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[Alias]

Consumers already pay the price of piracy in the procucts they buy, and
they aren't getting any price break for PA and WGA. So in effect, they
are paying for piracy three time. Once included in the price of piracy.
Twice, in having to waste their time, and having to play the Russian
Roulette game of Licensing Check errors. And now MS is gonna impose a
third cost of piracy to their paying customers, with wasting their time
with WGA, and the errors it is likely to generate. I have already seen
problems in this group where a users could get WGA Validation to run on
one of their computers, and when it becomes mandatory, people will be
wasting their time resolving such issues just to get their updates. <<<<<<

Very well put.

 

[kurttrail]

Consumers already pay the price of piracy in the procucts they buy,
and they aren't getting any price break for PA and WGA. So in
effect, they are paying for piracy three time. Once included in the
price of piracy. Twice, in having to waste their time, and having to
play the Russian Roulette game of Licensing Check errors. And now MS
is gonna impose a third cost of piracy to their paying customers,
with wasting their time with WGA, and the errors it is likely to
generate. I have already seen problems in this group where a users
could get WGA Validation to run on one of their computers, and when
it becomes mandatory, people will be wasting their time resolving
such issues just to get their updates. <<<<<<
Very well put.

Thanks, but I really got to learn how to proofread my own writing!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[Vagabond Software]

LOL! These are the same people that can't organize their All Programs
menu! It's not up to the paying customer to help the software
manufacterer to fight piracy.

Well, your genuine and heart-felt concern for the average user is commendable.

Should I encounter any REAL person that suffers any REAL hardship or loss as a result of WGA, then I will certainly direct them your way. Also, should I ever find myself mingling amongst the unlearned masses that "can't organize their All Programs menu" but will presumably be plagued with WGA issues after swapping their motherboards and flashing their BIOS chips, then I will certainly begin to share your concern.

However, until that time, I'll just go about my business helping end-users overcome ACTUAL problems with Microsoft and its products. The real issues I deal with have more to do with the debacle of the Windows XP "Home" (and now Media Center) editions, which are actually downgrades from Windows 2000. Of course, we can't leave out the confusing Office editions and versions with XP being 2002 but still readily available on store shelves right next to Office 2003, and with the only real choice for non-academic editions being between Standard and Professional. I won't even get started on products like Windows ME and Picture It.

I'm not a Microsoft sycophant, but I do like a number of their products. They make the best development environment in the business and their Operating Systems are solid. I also enjoy their liberal licensing policy. I just installed Office 2003, Frontpage 2003, and Visual Studio ..Net 2003 Enterprise Architect Edition on my desktop and laptop. Activation was simple and flawless for all three products on both machines.

carl

 

[kurttrail]

Well, your genuine and heart-felt concern for the average user is
commendable.

Gee, are you being sarcastic?

Should I encounter any REAL person that suffers any REAL hardship or
loss as a result of WGA, then I will certainly direct them your way.
Also, should I ever find myself mingling amongst the unlearned masses
that "can't organize their All Programs menu" but will presumably be
plagued with WGA issues after swapping their motherboards and
flashing their BIOS chips, then I will certainly begin to share your
concern.

The loss a real consumer pays is the money they pay that software
manufacturers, like MS, add to the price of their software, the time to
do both PA and WGA, for no benefit at all, and the added problems those
two technologies add to using the very expensive software they buy.

To me, paying the price of piracy is enough for consumers. Having to
jump through the hoops of PA and WGA is silly, but when problems arrise
from those technologies, and people do have REAL problems that have been
caused by them, it is bordering insane!

However, until that time, I'll just go about my business helping
end-users overcome ACTUAL problems with Microsoft and its products.
The real issues I deal with have more to do with the debacle of the
Windows XP "Home" (and now Media Center) editions, which are actually
downgrades from Windows 2000. Of course, we can't leave out the
confusing Office editions and versions with XP being 2002

Actually 2001. For Mac it is 2002. But your point about the confusion
is taken.

but still
readily available on store shelves right next to Office 2003, and
with the only real choice for non-academic editions being between
Standard and Professional. I won't even get started on products like
Windows ME and Picture It.

I'm not a Microsoft sycophant, but I do like a number of their
products. They make the best development environment in the business
and their Operating Systems are solid. I also enjoy their liberal
licensing policy. I just installed Office 2003, Frontpage 2003, and
Visual Studio .Net 2003 Enterprise Architect Edition on my desktop
and laptop. Activation was simple and flawless for all three
products on both machines.

That was your eXPerience, not everybody has been as lucky as you, and I
find the "it worked for me" attitude rather callous, when other people
haven't been as lucky.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[Guest]

A trojan? Please! My commercial customers don't need to lose any sleep worrying about worms or trojans. Obviously, if a user has a trojan virus, a disabled spyware scanner is the least of their worries.


The California Franchise Tax Board must've missed that part of the law. I failed to pay the appropriate level of taxes in 1996 and was saddled with penalties before I even knew I hadn't paid the correct amount, let lone been to a trial.

Same kind of thing happened to me in '91. The Governments response was,
"ignorance is no excuse, get an accountant" and I had to pay.

The same was true for my last parking ticket. I was presumed guilty and expected to pay the amount specified on the ticket long before any court appearances.

Look, I've had real grievances with software companies in the past, like the robber barons at Netscape and the privacy raiders at Real Networks. I have stopped using their products entirely. If something I want to see or hear requires a Real Networks product with no alternative, I do without. That's the way the world works and that's my perogative.

I have two suggestions for you. First, if you are personally put upon by Microsoft's copy protection, then don't use their products. Also, if you are truly concerned for the end-users, do more in your community to educate people on how to confirm their legal license to use their software and how to spot possible fraudulent vendors.

This is easy to say in the abstract, but if you are in this business then
you know that you can't simply choose not to support Microsoft if you want to
pay your rent. It is a fact of life that we have to deal with. Some of Kurt's
points are quite valid, WGA is a bunch of bogus crap designed to line MS's
pocketbook not protect the consumer. It's not the nobel defense of the
consumer that causes MS anger over pirated software, it's the "Damn it that's
my money!" syndrome. They didn't get paid so they are angry, and rightly so.
But don't come out spewing "We're here to protect you!" when it's really just
a matter of money. Not all of us are that gullible.

 

[Guest]

Well, your genuine and heart-felt concern for the average user is commendable.

Should I encounter any REAL person that suffers any REAL hardship or loss as a result of WGA, then I will certainly direct them your way. Also, should I ever find myself mingling amongst the unlearned masses that "can't organize their All Programs menu" but will presumably be plagued with WGA issues after swapping their motherboards and flashing their BIOS chips, then I will certainly begin to share your concern.

However, until that time, I'll just go about my business helping end-users overcome ACTUAL problems with Microsoft and its products. The real issues I deal with have more to do with the debacle of the Windows XP "Home" (and now Media Center) editions, which are actually downgrades from Windows 2000. Of course, we can't leave out the confusing Office editions and versions with XP being 2002 but still readily available on store shelves right next to Office 2003, and with the only real choice for non-academic editions being between Standard and Professional. I won't even get started on products like Windows ME and Picture It.

I'm not a Microsoft sycophant, but I do like a number of their products. They make the best development environment in the business and their Operating Systems are solid. I also enjoy their liberal licensing policy. I just installed Office 2003, Frontpage 2003, and Visual Studio ..Net 2003 Enterprise Architect Edition on my desktop and laptop. Activation was simple and flawless for all three products on both machines.

Did you purchase TWO licenses of all of this software you just installed on
both your laptop and your desktop, or are you a hypocite?

 

[Vagabond Software]

Did you purchase TWO licenses of all of this software you just installed on
both your laptop and your desktop, or are you a hypocite?

Of course I didn't purchase two licenses and no, I'm not a hypocrite. You see, the money-grubbing greedy scoundrels at Microsoft have very liberal licensing for these applications and such dual installations are permissible, according to the EULA.

carl

 

[kurttrail]

Of course I didn't purchase two licenses and no, I'm not a hypocrite.
You see, the money-grubbing greedy scoundrels at Microsoft have very
liberal licensing for these applications and such dual installations
are permissible, according to the EULA.

Academic or Retail?

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"