UPNP Internet Gateway keeps dropping with Belkin WiFi Router

[CJSnet]

Hi all, I have:

WinXP Pro SP2
Belkin Wireless G Plus router (F5D7231-4 with latest firmware)
Internet Gateway and UPNP enabled in XP
UPNP enabled in my Router's admin page

However, at random intervals the Internet Gateway connection vanishes, the
icon disappears from Network Connections, and the connection icon goes from
the tasktray. Then many file transfers such as MSN slow down.

The only way to get it back is to go into my router's admin page...

UPNP Enabling:
ADVANCED FEATURE! Allows you to turn the UPNP feature of the Router on or
off. If you use applications that support UPnP, enabling UPnP will allow
these applications to automatically configure the router. More Info
- UPNP Enable / Disable

....and disable, then enable it. The icon then comes back and stays maybe
for a few hours, maybe a couple of days. Nothing specific seems to cause it
to disappear.

Any ideas?
--
Thanks.

CJSnet

(Remove TEETH to reply by e-mail.)

 

[Kerry Brown]

I have seen this before. It appears that something in MSN causes it,
possibly an addon of some kind. The only solution I could come up with was
to disable UPnP on the router permanently.

 

[CJSnet]

Nooo -- don't say that!

Anyone else got any other experience or ideas on this?
--
Thanks.

CJSnet

(Remove TEETH to reply by e-mail.)

 

[Kerry Brown]

It's not that big a deal to manually configure the router to forward ports.
UPnP is really just a convenience.

 

[Chuck]

It's not that big a deal to manually configure the router to forward ports.
UPnP is really just a convenience.

Kerry,

That's according to opinion. If you run any program on multiple computers, that
runs as a server, and requires open incoming ports, for instance an Instant
Messenger, UPnP is essential. And if you use DHCP, and have server programs,
UPnP is essential.

The other advantage is that UPnP compliant programs close the ports when they're
not needed. So you don't end up with open ports going nowhere. Now an open
port going nowhere is NOT a security risk, contrary to what some folks say. But
it is untidy at best.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/01/nat-routers-with-upnp-security-risk-or.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/01/nat-routers-with-upnp-security-risk-or.html

 

[Kerry Brown]

Kerry,

That's according to opinion. If you run any program on multiple
computers, that runs as a server, and requires open incoming ports,
for instance an Instant Messenger, UPnP is essential. And if you use
DHCP, and have server programs, UPnP is essential.

The other advantage is that UPnP compliant programs close the ports
when they're not needed. So you don't end up with open ports going
nowhere. Now an open port going nowhere is NOT a security risk,
contrary to what some folks say. But it is untidy at best.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/01/nat-routers-with-upnp-security-risk-or.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/01/nat-routers-with-upnp-security-risk-or.html

I do all that and more on my home network and have UPnP disabled. UPnP has
always freaked me out security wise as I'm never sure what programs are UPnP
enabled and what traffic they are allowing to pass through the router. It
certainly makes things easier and more convenient but so far I haven't found
anything that needs it to work. I do agree that the fact that it closes
ports when not being used is cool.

 

[Chuck]

I do all that and more on my home network and have UPnP disabled. UPnP has
always freaked me out security wise as I'm never sure what programs are UPnP
enabled and what traffic they are allowing to pass through the router. It
certainly makes things easier and more convenient but so far I haven't found
anything that needs it to work. I do agree that the fact that it closes
ports when not being used is cool.

How do you forward ports, if your network uses DHCP? How do you allow the same
IM program to run on multiple computers? Can you do file transfer, audio, and
video?

If you worry about unknown UPnP programs allowing traffic to pass thru the
router, maybe you should worry more about what programs you have on your
computer, in general. Trustworthy programs can be trusted. Untrustworthy
programs will likely do more nasty things than just open ports without you
knowing.

If you depend upon outbound filtering (or worry about rogue UPnP programs) for
security, you have already lost the battle. By the time a rogue program gets
around to mucking with UPnP, who knows what else it's done? You must control
what runs on your computer.

 

[Kerry Brown]

Chuck wrote:

How do you forward ports, if your network uses DHCP? How do you
allow the same IM program to run on multiple computers? Can you do
file transfer, audio, and video?

If you worry about unknown UPnP programs allowing traffic to pass
thru the router, maybe you should worry more about what programs you
have on your computer, in general. Trustworthy programs can be
trusted. Untrustworthy programs will likely do more nasty things
than just open ports without you knowing.

If you depend upon outbound filtering (or worry about rogue UPnP
programs) for security, you have already lost the battle. By the time
a rogue program gets around to mucking with UPnP, who knows what else
it's done? You must control what runs on your computer.

I generally agree with you about knowing what's on your computer I know
what's on all of mine but I don't know what's on the others on the network.
It's a home network. Malware gets on computers. It is only a matter of time
before malware exploits UPnP. I do admit that UPnP makes things much easier
and I leave it enabled for most customer's home networks.

I have seen something very similar to the OP's problem a couple of times
where when using MSN Messenger the network keeps losing the connection for a
few seconds to a minute or two. Exiting MSN Messenger or disabling UPnP on
the router made the problem go away. What actually caused it I don't know.
It may have been a bug in the router's firmware. Both were D-Links. Both
were also using Messenger Plus.

 

[Chuck]

Nooo -- don't say that!

Anyone else got any other experience or ideas on this?
--
Thanks.

CJSnet

(Remove TEETH to reply by e-mail.)

Try the DSLR Belkin forum.
<http://www.dslreports.com/forum/belkin>
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/belkin

 

[CJSnet]

I have seen something very similar to the OP's problem a couple of times

where when using MSN Messenger the network keeps losing the connection for
a few seconds to a minute or two. Exiting MSN Messenger or disabling UPnP
on the router made the problem go away. What actually caused it I don't
know. It may have been a bug in the router's firmware. Both were D-Links.
Both were also using Messenger Plus.

I think I'd rather keep reactivating UPnP when it drops, than open the ports
and take on a security risk. I do use other programs that support UPnP like
Overnet, eDonkey, Skype, BitTorrent...

It does seem to tie in with MSN as I rarely use that, even though it is
always running. I also don't have MSN Messenger Plus, and have the latest
firmware for the router, which is also the latest model.
--
Thanks.

CJSnet

(Remove TEETH to reply by e-mail.)

 

[Barb Bowman MVP-Windows]

I saw this issue on a different vendor's router that used the Broadcom
chipset. The random ports used my MSN Messenger would fill up all the
slots (or enough of them) in the UPnP forwarding slots as they did not
clean up after themselves. It eventually caused the router to not pass
traffic. Whether this was classified by the vendor as a MSN Messenger
bug or a router bug, I don't remember. But since it didn't impact
other routers, my conclusion is... Eventually the vendor released a
firmware update that alleviated the issue.

I use a different vendors routers now..

I think I'd rather keep reactivating UPnP when it drops, than open the ports
and take on a security risk. I do use other programs that support UPnP like
Overnet, eDonkey, Skype, BitTorrent...

It does seem to tie in with MSN as I rarely use that, even though it is
always running. I also don't have MSN Messenger Plus, and have the latest
firmware for the router, which is also the latest model.

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/meetexperts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

 

[Socrates]

However, at random intervals the Internet Gateway connection
Turn off WZC utility as that has a bug in it that will keep changing to another network signal if it detects one. Use the native wireless configuration utilities of the adapters/router.

You can also pull out and re-instert the adapter while windows is running to get it to be recognised by windows.

Wireless Networking FAQ
www.amw1.com/faq

Nooo -- don't say that!

Anyone else got any other experience or ideas on this?
--
Thanks.

CJSnet

(Remove TEETH to reply by e-mail.)

Try the DSLR Belkin forum.
<http://www.dslreports.com/forum/belkin>
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/belkin

--
Cheers,
Chuck, MS-MVP [Windows - Networking]
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
My email is AT DOT
actual address pchuck mvps org.

 

[CJSnet]

Cheers, I'll give that WZC a go and see if it works.
--
Thanks.

CJSnet

(Remove TEETH to reply by e-mail.)

However, at random intervals the Internet Gateway connection
Turn off WZC utility as that has a bug in it that will keep changing to
another network signal if it detects one. Use the native wireless
configuration utilities of the adapters/router.

You can also pull out and re-instert the adapter while windows is running to
get it to be recognised by windows.

Wireless Networking FAQ
www.amw1.com/faq

 

[CJSnet]

Thanks Barb. I have e-mailed Belkin so we shall see. I also have tried
disabling WZC as apparently that can help.

Are there any tweaks in MSN I can do to limit the number of slots? Or will
Windows Live Messenger behave a bit better do you know? I could try that
beta if the slots code has been revamped.
--
Thanks.

CJSnet

(Remove TEETH to reply by e-mail.)

 

[CJSnet]

....cancel that, didn't work Gateway dropped 30 mins. after doing it.
Any other ideas?
--
Thanks.

CJSnet

(Remove TEETH to reply by e-mail.)

 

[Chuck]

...cancel that, didn't work Gateway dropped 30 mins. after doing it.
Any other ideas?

Make sure that the Intel / WZC conflict wasn't the only one, and check
thoroughly. WiFi client conflicts are a good candidate still.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/01/stabilise-your-wifi-use-only-one-wifi.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/01/stabilise-your-wifi-use-only-one-wifi.html

And please type your answers after mine - it will benefit both of us.
Especially if you use a signature, and a sig delimiter ("-- "). Help us to help
you.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/how-to-post-on-usenet-and-encourage.html#TopPosting>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/how-to-post-on-usenet-and-encourage.html#TopPosting

 

[CJSnet]

Make sure that the Intel / WZC conflict wasn't the only one, and check
thoroughly. WiFi client conflicts are a good candidate still.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/01/stabilise-your-wifi-use-only-one-wifi.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/01/stabilise-your-wifi-use-only-one-wifi.html

And please type your answers after mine - it will benefit both of us.
Especially if you use a signature, and a sig delimiter ("-- "). Help us
to help
you.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/how-to-post-on-usenet-and-encourage.html#TopPosting>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/how-to-post-on-usenet-and-encourage.html#TopPosting

Hope people can find this reply all the way down here!

Anyway, I only have 1 WiFi Manager running and that is WinXP's built-in one.
I never install other ones. The PC itself is wired not wireless, straight
into the router.
--
Thanks,
CJSnet

I recommend www.Superhighstreet.com/Home Finds anything or they'll buy it
for you!

[remove 'teeth' to e-mail me]

 

[Chuck]

Hope people can find this reply all the way down here!

Anyway, I only have 1 WiFi Manager running and that is WinXP's built-in one.
I never install other ones. The PC itself is wired not wireless, straight
into the router.

OK, I'm confused. You have a computer with Ethernet, or WiFi? Which computer
loses connectivity?

How about you show us "ipconfig /all" from each computer.

 

[Barb Bowman MVP-Windows]

i don't think there are any tweaks - but sure, try the new version and
see what happens.

Thanks Barb. I have e-mailed Belkin so we shall see. I also have tried
disabling WZC as apparently that can help.

Are there any tweaks in MSN I can do to limit the number of slots? Or will
Windows Live Messenger behave a bit better do you know? I could try that
beta if the slots code has been revamped.

--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/meetexperts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

 

[CJSnet]

OK, I'm confused. You have a computer with Ethernet, or WiFi? Which
computer
loses connectivity?

Sorry to confuse. I have one computer which is wired into the Wireless
Router. The WiFi part of things helps with my Media Center Extenders and my
Windows Mobile device.

The computer in question is the one which loses the Internet Gateway at
random intervals.
--
Thanks,
CJSnet

I recommend www.Superhighstreet.com/home Finds anything or they pay for it!

[remove 'teeth' to e-mail me]