standalone OEM COA

[Guest]

Hi there,

I am a computer reseller. I buy XP OEM software with the COA sticker from
my Distributors in addition to hardware and sell these to customers with a
new PC. I know that is all legit.

The thing is that I am now finding vendors on the internet and via
pricewatch.com that are selling authentic and legit COA stickers without the
CD for a significantly lower price. These must be grey market products that
find their way into the market place from the big manufacturers like Dell and
IBM etc. They are definitely authentic and legit. I know I can install the
software from an OEM disk and activate the product with these keys.

So is this practice of selling and using authentic COA stickers with
authentic keys highly illegal or is it just kinda bending the rules?
Basically, MS is still getting their money for each PC that is sold with
these stickers so it is definitely not software piracy.

IMHO it is MS's own fault for creating this grey market by having an uneven
playing field between the big PC manufacturers and the smaller generic PC
resellers.

 

[Jim Macklin]

OEM's such as Dell press their own and print their own
version of the COA. Microsoft sells a oem version, such as
you buy for system builders. The MS COA is different from a
Dell OEM. A Dell OEM COA and CD are legal only on a Dell
computer. The same goes for a Compaq/HP, Gateway or
eMachine.

But MS does sell additional licenses and includes a new COA.
This allows the re-use of one oem CD to legally install a
Windows OS on many computers, usually in a small office or
home network. But you do have to provide a means to
re-install the OS, so you do need a CD or the contents of
the CD for restoration.

You seem to be doing it the ethical way, so your individual
customers have a legally bought oem and COA for their
computer. Your distributor may be able to cit you a deal on
quantities, oem XP Home retails for about $99 and Pro about
$150, you should be able to get 10-20% off those prices if
you are in business as a reseller.

The OEM stuff being sold on eBay probably is not a good
value and may not be legal if it is a OEM branded rather
than a MS product.
--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.


message
| Hi there,
|
| I am a computer reseller. I buy XP OEM software with the
COA sticker from
| my Distributors in addition to hardware and sell these to
customers with a
| new PC. I know that is all legit.
|
| The thing is that I am now finding vendors on the internet
and via
| pricewatch.com that are selling authentic and legit COA
stickers without the
| CD for a significantly lower price. These must be grey
market products that
| find their way into the market place from the big
manufacturers like Dell and
| IBM etc. They are definitely authentic and legit. I know
I can install the
| software from an OEM disk and activate the product with
these keys.
|
| So is this practice of selling and using authentic COA
stickers with
| authentic keys highly illegal or is it just kinda bending
the rules?
| Basically, MS is still getting their money for each PC
that is sold with
| these stickers so it is definitely not software piracy.
|
| IMHO it is MS's own fault for creating this grey market by
having an uneven
| playing field between the big PC manufacturers and the
smaller generic PC
| resellers.
|
|

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the reply Jim.

That still does not really answer my question. So maybe these grey market
COA stickers don't come from IBM or Dell. Wherever they come from, they are
authentic stickers and legit keys that work with generic XP OEM CD's.

What I am asking is, can I buy these stickers off the internet, put them on
PC's and resell them. Again, these are legit COA's but do not come with a
CD. Where they come from is not the discussion. I have copies of XP OEM on
CD so access to the software to install on the PC is not the discussion.
Microsoft ultimately get's the same amount of money from the customer more or
less no matter what I do so it is not software piracy. The customer IS
paying for a legit software license.

All I am really asking is how legal or illegal is this practice? It is
obviously widespread because there are lots of vendors selling these legit
COA's on pricewatch.com. I know of several PC resellers right here locally
that are doing this and say they have been doing it for years. Some of them
are authorized MS system builders too.

 

[Steve Midgley]

Hi there,

I am a computer reseller. I buy XP OEM software with the COA sticker from
my Distributors in addition to hardware and sell these to customers with a
new PC. I know that is all legit.

The thing is that I am now finding vendors on the internet and via
pricewatch.com that are selling authentic and legit COA stickers without the
CD for a significantly lower price. These must be grey market products that
find their way into the market place from the big manufacturers like Dell and
IBM etc. They are definitely authentic and legit. I know I can install the
software from an OEM disk and activate the product with these keys.

So is this practice of selling and using authentic COA stickers with
authentic keys highly illegal or is it just kinda bending the rules?
Basically, MS is still getting their money for each PC that is sold with
these stickers so it is definitely not software piracy.

IMHO it is MS's own fault for creating this grey market by having an uneven
playing field between the big PC manufacturers and the smaller generic PC
resellers.

This used to come up on a fairly regular basis on a small computer business
egroup I belong to. The official Microsoft policy on this is that to be
fully compliant, each computer that has an MS operating system on it must
also include the hologramed installation disk. I received an OEM System
Builders bulletin from Microsoft a while back stating the same thing.

 

[Jim Macklin]

When you build and sell a computer, you are obligated to
supply not just a COA but a CD or other means for the user
to reinstall or repair the system. I don't think there is
much to be saved when you're selling computers. But if
you're building a network in an office, one CD is enough to
handle all the computers.


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.


message
|
| Thanks for the reply Jim.
|
| That still does not really answer my question. So maybe
these grey market
| COA stickers don't come from IBM or Dell. Wherever they
come from, they are
| authentic stickers and legit keys that work with generic
XP OEM CD's.
|
| What I am asking is, can I buy these stickers off the
internet, put them on
| PC's and resell them. Again, these are legit COA's but do
not come with a
| CD. Where they come from is not the discussion. I have
copies of XP OEM on
| CD so access to the software to install on the PC is not
the discussion.
| Microsoft ultimately get's the same amount of money from
the customer more or
| less no matter what I do so it is not software piracy.
The customer IS
| paying for a legit software license.
|
| All I am really asking is how legal or illegal is this
practice? It is
| obviously widespread because there are lots of vendors
selling these legit
| COA's on pricewatch.com. I know of several PC resellers
right here locally
| that are doing this and say they have been doing it for
years. Some of them
| are authorized MS system builders too.

 

[D.Currie]

Thanks for the reply Jim.

That still does not really answer my question. So maybe these grey market
COA stickers don't come from IBM or Dell. Wherever they come from, they
are
authentic stickers and legit keys that work with generic XP OEM CD's.

What I am asking is, can I buy these stickers off the internet, put them
on
PC's and resell them. Again, these are legit COA's but do not come with a
CD. Where they come from is not the discussion. I have copies of XP OEM
on
CD so access to the software to install on the PC is not the discussion.
Microsoft ultimately get's the same amount of money from the customer more
or
less no matter what I do so it is not software piracy. The customer IS
paying for a legit software license.

All I am really asking is how legal or illegal is this practice? It is
obviously widespread because there are lots of vendors selling these legit
COA's on pricewatch.com. I know of several PC resellers right here
locally
that are doing this and say they have been doing it for years. Some of
them
are authorized MS system builders too.

According to MSs rules for system builders, the only legal way to sell the
product is to include the COA, the original hologrammed CD and the booklet.
The fact that people have done otherwise just means MS hasn't caught up with
them yet.

I wonder how you figure that MS gets the same amount of money (or any money)
when you buy the COAs alone. And if you are buying the COAs for the same
price as the full OEM product and assuming MS is getting their full share,
what is your advantage in buying the COA alone instead of the full and
obviously legal product?

I seriously doubt MS is getting any money from the sale of those COAs,
unless they sold them to a large system builder who makes their own restore
CDs, then they were stolen from that OEM. But then someone was still ripped
off. No matter how you slice it, those COAs are either pirated or stolen, as
there's no MS part number for COAs alone, and no legitimate distributors who
sell them. The only legal way MS distributes the COAs to system builders is
with the CD, and it doesn't make sense that someone would keep the COA to
sell, but then throw away the CD and booklet.

 

[Guest]

According to MSs rules for system builders, the only legal way to sell the
product is to include the COA, the original hologrammed CD and the booklet.
The fact that people have done otherwise just means MS hasn't caught up with
them yet.

I wonder how you figure that MS gets the same amount of money (or any money)
when you buy the COAs alone. And if you are buying the COAs for the same
price as the full OEM product and assuming MS is getting their full share,
what is your advantage in buying the COA alone instead of the full and
obviously legal product?

I seriously doubt MS is getting any money from the sale of those COAs,
unless they sold them to a large system builder who makes their own restore
CDs, then they were stolen from that OEM. But then someone was still ripped
off. No matter how you slice it, those COAs are either pirated or stolen, as
there's no MS part number for COAs alone, and no legitimate distributors who
sell them. The only legal way MS distributes the COAs to system builders is
with the CD, and it doesn't make sense that someone would keep the COA to
sell, but then throw away the CD and booklet.

I don't want the discussion to get side tracked on how or if or how much MS
gets. The bottom line is that we are assuming these are legit COA's so MS
has been payed and if MS get's payed then it's not piracy. If they get payed
less because I payed less for the COA sticker in an effort to level the
playing field between myself and the big manufacturers then it is STILL not
software piracy.

So now I would like to know where these come from if not the big
Manufacturers who apparently print their own with their names on them. A few
of the websites I visited state that they are a "system pull" whatever that
means.

 

[D.Currie]

I don't want the discussion to get side tracked on how or if or how much
MS
gets. The bottom line is that we are assuming these are legit COA's so MS
has been payed and if MS get's payed then it's not piracy. If they get
payed
less because I payed less for the COA sticker in an effort to level the
playing field between myself and the big manufacturers then it is STILL
not
software piracy.

So now I would like to know where these come from if not the big
Manufacturers who apparently print their own with their names on them. A
few
of the websites I visited state that they are a "system pull" whatever
that
means.

You are the one who is assuming that they're legitimate, not "we." I
personally, can't see any way that they are legitimate, so for my business,
I'd never risk it. I've seen what can happen if MS starts investigating a
business, and for me the risk is way too great.

The thing is that there is no legitimate route from MS that COAs alone could
travel to get to a system builder. There is no part number for a COA and no
way to buy one from authorized distributors. If it can't be legitimately
purchased from MS authorized channels, they aren't going to deem it
legitimate for you to sell to customers.

Whether you care or not what MS thinks or what they consider legitimate,
that's up to you.

As far as where the COAs could come from, they could be stolen from a
printer who prints them, they could be stolen from some OEM who bought them,
they could be counterfeit product. My bet would be counterfeit because it's
probably easier that stealing them, and it's a steady supply.

"System pull" means whatever the person who said it wants it to mean. They
might be saying that they've pulled them off of systems that have been taken
out of service, but that doesn't explain the absence of the CD. And if they
are taken from used systems, for sure that means they're not legitimate as
far as MS is concerned, because the OEM license dies with the first computer
it was on. If they were never used, there would be no reason to sell them at
a discount because they would simply use them as originally planned or sell
the whole product instead of just the COA.

If you were looking for a cheap way to put the OS on a second system, you'd
have little actual risk of MS checking you out, but if you're selling these
systems, all it's going to take is a call or two from customers or
disgruntled employees or competitors who tell MS that you're selling OEM
copies of the OS without legitimate CDs and you are risking some
investigation from MS. If you like to gamble like that, it's entirely up to
you. Me, I like my house and my car and my lifestyle.

 

[David Candy]

MS only makes you pay back a fraction of what is stolen. So if you do it and get caught you'll be able to buy a second car with the profit anyway.

For companies using it they need to steal over $50,000 (might be $10,000) or they don't bother chasing you.

 

[Greg R]

According to MSs rules for system builders, the only legal way to sell the
product is to include the COA, the original hologrammed CD and the booklet.
The fact that people have done otherwise just means MS hasn't caught up with

D Currie.

That does not explain how dell, emachine, compaq and other big
companies. They don't provide a oem cd. They are System Builders.
They just provide an oem key and a coa sticker, and a means to restore
the system. His business should have the same opportunity as the big
guys. They are fair market laws in the U.S.

Greg R

 

[Jim Macklin]

Dell does provide a CD they produce [actually a set that
includes restore images and a real XP CD that says Dell on
it.] Other companies may provide only a restore CD or just
an image on a hidden partition.


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.


| On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:17:21 -0700, "D.Currie"
|
|
| >According to MSs rules for system builders, the only
legal way to sell the
| >product is to include the COA, the original hologrammed
CD and the booklet.
| >The fact that people have done otherwise just means MS
hasn't caught up with
|
| D Currie.
|
| That does not explain how dell, emachine, compaq and other
big
| companies. They don't provide a oem cd. They are System
Builders.
| They just provide an oem key and a coa sticker, and a
means to restore
| the system. His business should have the same opportunity
as the big
| guys. They are fair market laws in the U.S.
|
| Greg R
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|

 

[Guest]

D Currie.

That does not explain how dell, emachine, compaq and other big
companies. They don't provide a oem cd. They are System Builders.
They just provide an oem key and a coa sticker, and a means to restore
the system. His business should have the same opportunity as the big
guys. They are fair market laws in the U.S.

Greg R

Yes, I believe these come from some of these big manufacturers who have
these "special" agreements with MS. I don't believe they are "stolen"
because if they were the keys could easily be invalidated. It is simply grey
market. Intel had a problem with this for years. Asian manufacturers would
get Intel OEM CPU's cheap with the agreement they not be resold but
inevitably, the CPU's sorta showed up in the grey market when manufacturers
were having inventory problems or sales slowdowns.

As I said before, I don't want the thread to go off on a tangent on whether
these are legal or not but some people seem intent on going there. They ARE
Legit. The keys are all unique and successfully authorize with MS. Some
authorized System builders (rightly or wrongly), who are not big
manufacturers, have been doing this for years in order to compete with the
big manufacturers.

 

[D.Currie]

I dunno. I saw two businesses in my area go out of business in a big way,
and it's not something I'd want to go through. And they weren't stealing
over $10 or 50k per year, I'm sure.

It just a lot simpler to sell the OEM that I get from authorized
distributors, and not have to worry about it.


"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
MS only makes you pay back a fraction of what is stolen. So if you do it and
get caught you'll be able to buy a second car with the profit anyway.

For companies using it they need to steal over $50,000 (might be $10,000) or
they don't bother chasing you.

 

[D.Currie]

Yes, I believe these come from some of these big manufacturers who have
these "special" agreements with MS. I don't believe they are "stolen"
because if they were the keys could easily be invalidated. It is simply
grey
market. Intel had a problem with this for years. Asian manufacturers
would
get Intel OEM CPU's cheap with the agreement they not be resold but
inevitably, the CPU's sorta showed up in the grey market when
manufacturers
were having inventory problems or sales slowdowns.

As I said before, I don't want the thread to go off on a tangent on
whether
these are legal or not but some people seem intent on going there. They
ARE
Legit. The keys are all unique and successfully authorize with MS. Some
authorized System builders (rightly or wrongly), who are not big
manufacturers, have been doing this for years in order to compete with
the
big manufacturers.

I guess we'll just have to differ on what we consider legit. If your test is
that they authorize, then any key you download off the Internet would be
legit. MS has only blacklisted a few keys, so the fact that it activates
isn't much of a test. My test is whether MS sees it as legit or not, and
gray market isn't legit; I've talked to my MS rep and the local MS legal rep
at length about these things after a local competitor got nailed. I'm real
clear on what they allow and what they don't as well as (off the record)
what they let slide and what they would go after. Me personally, I see no
reason to risk my business, so I only buy from authorized distributors. Then
I don't have to worry about it.

 

[D.Currie]

D Currie.

That does not explain how dell, emachine, compaq and other big
companies. They don't provide a oem cd. They are System Builders.
They just provide an oem key and a coa sticker, and a means to restore
the system. His business should have the same opportunity as the big
guys. They are fair market laws in the U.S.

Greg R

Has nothing to do with fair market. In practical terms, if you want to sell
MS products, you play by their rules or you risk their vengeance. MS has
rules for the big OEMs and for the system builders which differ a bit. Just
like the rules for the retail product differ from the OEM.

I'm not saying that it right, wrong, fair, or unfair, just that it is.

A long time ago, I decided that it's just easier following their rules for
selling their product. It's their court and their ball and their rules.
Otherwise I could sell all Linux, but that's a pretty small market, and
Apple is impossible to get authorized for.

Playing legit has not lost me any business. As a matter of fact, it's
probably gained me business in the long run.

 

[David Candy]

The 10K/50K is for companies using MS products. But they were making me watch a powerpoint presentation last week of recent settlements. Court settlements were heaps but negoetated ones were paltry, like $4,000 and $10,000. MS seeks to keep them as customers as well. I believe their aim is future complience rather than revenge.

 

[David Candy]

I suppose the point I was really making was that's a very poor reason for not being a thief. Perhaps you should list the better ones as well. It was just an ironic comment because I saw the opportunity and couldn't resist..

 

[D.Currie]

I suppose it's who you are and what you've done wrong. The ones I knew about
were resellers/small system builders/storefronts. In one local case, MS was
asking some large multiple of what the cost would have been had the product
been legal. Like five or ten times the cost per copy of Windows. The owner
was actually putting out a mailer that detailed what was happening, all the
while saying that what he did was legal. Then, suddenly, he sold the
business. I don't know if he paid anything to MS or if selling the business
was the whole settlement.

Settlements can be odd, too. I read one where the company had to take out a
full-page newspaper ad where they admitted what they had done wrong. I don't
recall if that was a reseller or not; it wasn't one of the local ones, just
something that stuck in my mind.

But then again, the settlement is only a small part of the loss. If you hire
a lawyer to defend you, that can add up pretty quickly. And if you're a
small business, that can be enough to put you under.

I can see how they'd prefer compliance from companies that use their
products, and especially those that buy in large quantities. But I haven't
seen that same forgiveness with the resellers that I know about. Or maybe I
just don't know about the "forgiven" ones since they're still in business
and they aren't going to be bragging about getting caught.

My sympathies on the PowerPoint presentation, by the way. I hope it was
better than average. There's not much worse than sitting through a bad
PowerPoint presentation. (yawn).




"David Candy" <.> wrote in message
The 10K/50K is for companies using MS products. But they were making me
watch a powerpoint presentation last week of recent settlements. Court
settlements were heaps but negoetated ones were paltry, like $4,000 and
$10,000. MS seeks to keep them as customers as well. I believe their aim is
future complience rather than revenge.

 

[Greg R]

Has nothing to do with fair market. In practical terms, if you want to sell
MS products, you play by their rules or you risk their vengeance. MS has
rules for the big OEMs and for the system builders which differ a bit. Just
like the rules for the retail product differ from the OEM.

I'm not saying that it right, wrong, fair, or unfair, just that it is.

A long time ago, I decided that it's just easier following their rules for
selling their product. It's their court and their ball and their rules.
Otherwise I could sell all Linux, but that's a pretty small market, and
Apple is impossible to get authorized for.

Playing legit has not lost me any business. As a matter of fact, it's
probably gained me business in the long run.

Laws override contract in any case in the U.S. Even some EULA’s and
warranties states this. So the Fair Makert law would apply.
However, no one has sued or challange this.

I not saying Microsoft is wrong. I just think microsoft and others
should allow small businesses to compete the same way with the big
companies. They were all small businesses to start out with.

Apple is totally different. It sells direct to you and makes their
own computer with no third parties.

You can still sell Linux. Even if you sell Microsoft Stuff.

Even Dell or will sell linux systems

Greg R