SP2 - Why bother?

[Gary]

Greetings to all!

I don't quite understand the theory of installing SP2, a vast majority of
users sail through the installation, yet others, such as myself, have had
endless problems.

1. The in situ upgrade from SP1 to SP2 failed. When I rebooted, the PC
would not go past the BIOS boot up stage to Windows.
2. I restored the whole old OS, programs et al with Powerquest Drive
Image to SP1 again to a blank disk. No problems, situation normal.
3. Zero filled the C Drive and slipstreamed SP2. The machine actually
booted this time and Windows was fine.
4. Prior to all this install, i looked at the compatibility for various
programs on the MS site, and no programs that caused problems that I had
bought were listed, so I installed them one by one to see which one
didn't like SP2.
5. Powerquest Drive image was one, the other was Diskeeper 5. Both hated
being on SP2, caused freezes, slow responses and so on.
6. Looked at SP2 fixes for both these programs, there are NONE,
Powerquest is now owned by Symantec, and Diskeeper 5 is too "old".
7. This means upgrading , that is to BUY NEW expensive programs, yet
there could be more?

So I am faced with the situation to fork out more dollars, for programs i
know have worked fine since Windows2000 & SP1 to fix some holes in an OS,
that should have been plugged long ago? Not on your sweet fanny!!

I've thrown XP PRO in the trash, and went back to Windows2000, something
I know works and the programs I paid for work on it as well. IF there is
a significant reason for me to upgrade programs, then it's from my own
choice, and not to be dictated and enforced by an inferior OS.

Gary

 

[David H. Lipman]

Automobile oil change -- Why bother ?

Dave



| Greetings to all!
|
| I don't quite understand the theory of installing SP2, a vast majority of
| users sail through the installation, yet others, such as myself, have had
| endless problems.
|
| 1. The in situ upgrade from SP1 to SP2 failed. When I rebooted, the PC
| would not go past the BIOS boot up stage to Windows.
| 2. I restored the whole old OS, programs et al with Powerquest Drive
| Image to SP1 again to a blank disk. No problems, situation normal.
| 3. Zero filled the C Drive and slipstreamed SP2. The machine actually
| booted this time and Windows was fine.
| 4. Prior to all this install, i looked at the compatibility for various
| programs on the MS site, and no programs that caused problems that I had
| bought were listed, so I installed them one by one to see which one
| didn't like SP2.
| 5. Powerquest Drive image was one, the other was Diskeeper 5. Both hated
| being on SP2, caused freezes, slow responses and so on.
| 6. Looked at SP2 fixes for both these programs, there are NONE,
| Powerquest is now owned by Symantec, and Diskeeper 5 is too "old".
| 7. This means upgrading , that is to BUY NEW expensive programs, yet
| there could be more?
|
| So I am faced with the situation to fork out more dollars, for programs i
| know have worked fine since Windows2000 & SP1 to fix some holes in an OS,
| that should have been plugged long ago? Not on your sweet fanny!!
|
| I've thrown XP PRO in the trash, and went back to Windows2000, something
| I know works and the programs I paid for work on it as well. IF there is
| a significant reason for me to upgrade programs, then it's from my own
| choice, and not to be dictated and enforced by an inferior OS.
|
| Gary
|

 

[S.Sengupta]

Great reply.)

regards,
ssg MS-MVP

 

[Leythos]

5. Powerquest Drive image was one, the other was Diskeeper 5. Both hated
being on SP2, caused freezes, slow responses and so on.
6. Looked at SP2 fixes for both these programs, there are NONE,
Powerquest is now owned by Symantec, and Diskeeper 5 is too "old".
7. This means upgrading , that is to BUY NEW expensive programs, yet
there could be more?

I don't believe that anyone pulled your chain and forced you to purchase
XP or install SP1 or SP2. Expecting Diskeeper 5 to run on anything newer
than 2000 is only a hope. Diskeeper 6 does work, and is still old as
heck, so does Diskeeper 2003, and it's also old.

With new OS's come new issues, it's been that way since CPM, get use to
it and learn how to deal with it.

So I am faced with the situation to fork out more dollars, for programs i
know have worked fine since Windows2000 & SP1 to fix some holes in an OS,
that should have been plugged long ago? Not on your sweet fanny!!

Again, you can stay with 2000, if your apps work then why change? No one
forced you to upgrade or install service packs. If you like living in
the past, then be happy.

I've thrown XP PRO in the trash, and went back to Windows2000, something
I know works and the programs I paid for work on it as well. IF there is
a significant reason for me to upgrade programs, then it's from my own
choice, and not to be dictated and enforced by an inferior OS.

Many of us are doing many more things that you could imagine on our XP
SP2 machines, have running all sorts of apps, tools, development
packages, etc....

And Windows 2000 is not perfect either - I just repaired a system that
an IE6 update put into reboot cycle mode. Turns out it was an Intel IAA
driver that was old and replacing it corrected the problem without any
other changes.

Did you complain this much when Beta VCR's were taken off the market?

 

[Sandman]

I too, have read many of the problems people are having with SP2 and decided
from the beginning NOT to install it, at least for now. I have it on a disc.
When i questioned efficacy of insrtalling it because of stuff you mentioned,
I was told it was a solid piece of software and the problems listed herein
were miniscule considering the number of XP users there are.
Well, maybe the number is small (compared to millions of users) but there
are enough problem users here to keep me away from it. I was also told the
problems people were having were mostly due to their not 'prepping' their
install prior to SP2..... These were people who regularly monitor some of
these newsgroups and help people like you and I with problems; they ARE
knowledgeable, don't misunderstand, but they are blowing smoke if they think
anyone would believe SP2 is anything but a royal pain in the *ss for many
people. And it ain't gonna go away. I am hoping for a patch for the patch...

 

[Kip Kniskern]

Check out this article from eWeek's Larry Seltzer
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1724107,00.asp

and get a clue.....

kip

 

[Guest]

I just don't get it, I baught my new PC in August this year, when I got it
home I updated all that needed updating and kept checking to see if new
updates (which there where) would come out then load them as well. I orderd
the SP2 CD and when it arived I sliped it in ran it and I have never had even
one glitch since doing it. Now I am not a computer IT or techy and I download
and buy all kinds of stuff because I am just crazzy I guess. But in all I
have to say that I am happy with the constant changes being made, and with
the changes comes better running PC's.
Just my oppinion.

 

[Gary]

"I don't believe that anyone pulled your chain and forced you to purchase
XP or install SP1 or SP2"

The reason I installed XP in the first place was that the software for
digital camera I bought would only run on Windows 2000 SP3 (I had SP4) or
XP. So rather than going back to SP3, I had no choice but to go to XP.
So here I was forced to make the change, and I didn't really need to. And
had to spend money for an OS I really didn't want.

One day updates from Bill Gates Inc will not run on anything but SP2. So for
those of us in the 'minority millions' that's just tough luck and choice
huh?

Let me put this in perspective of dollars......(shown in USD)

Symantec LiveState Recovery Desktop 3.0 min purchase 10 units $1800.00
Diskeeper Version 9 $50.00
Symantec AV suitable for SP2 $75.00
Symantec Firewall $75.00 or Zone Alarm for a bit cheaper..

This is beginning to look like I should be spending more time doing other
things than pay for some programmers and marketing spin doctors methods to
fleece and deceive folks. And while I'm on that topic, why should I pay for
a product that has so many bugs? Sure bug fixes come out every week, I'm
sure if GM/Ford/Boeing would subscribe to that philosophy they will have
very happy and satisfied customers too, won't they?

 

[Mike Hall]

Like it or not, XP SP2 is the way to go.. I installed from the downloadable
IT version on my own computers, did the same for others that I do work for,
and the people that I just could not reach in time accepted the WU version..
not one of us has any problems with SP2.. I might add that some of these
people have not reached 7th grade in computer literacy, but after basic
instruction have learned how to keep their computers 'clean'..

 

[Ron Bogart]

In

"I don't believe that anyone pulled your chain and forced you to
purchase XP or install SP1 or SP2"

The reason I installed XP in the first place was that the software for
digital camera I bought would only run on Windows 2000 SP3 (I had
SP4) or XP. So rather than going back to SP3, I had no choice but to
go to XP.
So here I was forced to make the change, and I didn't really need to.
And had to spend money for an OS I really didn't want.

One day updates from Bill Gates Inc will not run on anything but SP2.
So for those of us in the 'minority millions' that's just tough luck
and choice huh?

Let me put this in perspective of dollars......(shown in USD)

Symantec LiveState Recovery Desktop 3.0 min purchase 10 units $1800.00
Diskeeper Version 9 $50.00
Symantec AV suitable for SP2 $75.00
Symantec Firewall $75.00 or Zone Alarm for a bit cheaper..

This is beginning to look like I should be spending more time doing
other things than pay for some programmers and marketing spin doctors
methods to fleece and deceive folks. And while I'm on that topic, why
should I pay for a product that has so many bugs? Sure bug fixes come
out every week, I'm sure if GM/Ford/Boeing would subscribe to that
philosophy they will have very happy and satisfied customers too,
won't they?

"The reason I installed XP in the first place was that the software for
digital camera I bought would only run on Windows 2000 SP3 "

As one of the many programmers out there who take offense to your childish
diatribe - look back at what caused this for you and go complain there. It
has nothing to do with Windows - it is the slipshod vendors who provide
these "Wonder Tools" the public keeps buying and then bitching about MS when
the great new thing isn't even ready for the market much less for an up to
date OS. It rates right up there with people complaining that they have to
run as administrator to play their precious games because the game
programmers were too damn lazy to write viable and efficient code. How is
it that MS is supposed to handle all the laze, inefficient code from
everyone but nobody seems to ever bitch about the product they just bought
that is the actual cause of the problem? I guess the big target is too easy
to see so the rest of the industry gets a free ride?

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Checking on Microsoft's site for incompatible software and hardware
was a good start on your part.
However your failure was expecting Microsoft to have a comprehensive
list of all compatibility issues.
If you would stop for a moment, you would realize that would be
impossible for anyone including Microsoft.
If you have software that old, you should have checked with the
manufacturer.
If the manufacturer was unavailable and/or current owner has no
information, that should have been a big clue for you.

Your problems are largely caused by your mixing hardware and software
from various generations seemingly only for economic reasons.
Perhaps if you also considered security this would not be an issue.

Most people make no changes to their computer so the mismatch such as
you have is not an issue.
They only have to worry about spyware, viruses etc while you also have
the mismatch purely due to your own choices.

No one forced you to upgrade to anything.
If you buy hardware requiring something, that is a choice you make.

Buying that digital camera was another choice you made.
The compatibility issues of that camera were also part of your choice.
Hopefully you also complain to the camera manufacturer because of
their lack of newer drivers.

The fact something worked well in the past is no guarantee they will
perform well with modern technology, or do you and your family still
drive the very modern an efficient Ford Model T?

Since you "don't quite understand the theory of installing SP2", it is
probably in your best interests in keeping a computer as bought
without any hardware changes until time to buy a new computer.
That way you will avoid many of these issues in the future.

These are all choices you make.
No one has attempted to force you to make any of the choices you
chose.

 

[Guest]

Four of your first seven words sum things up quite nicely -

"I don't quite understand"

You're right ! !

 

[Gary]

Checking on Microsoft's site for incompatible software and hardware
was a good start on your part.
However your failure was expecting Microsoft to have a comprehensive
list of all compatibility issues.
If you would stop for a moment, you would realize that would be
impossible for anyone including Microsoft.
If you have software that old, you should have checked with the
manufacturer.

Software that old..............18 months? Is that old? 6 months, 3 days,
your definition of old is very loose.

If the manufacturer was unavailable and/or current owner has no
information, that should have been a big clue for you.

Your problems are largely caused by your mixing hardware and software
from various generations seemingly only for economic reasons.

A processor is faced with an instruction to do something, a video card mixes
pixels, and a keyboard draws characters on the screen. From the year one
double aught 3, computer hardware's fundamentals have remain, relatively,
unchanged, suffice some new and faster methods for making the software run
like it should, and not so slowazz.
From what you're telling me, i should have upgraded my hardware (to which
level?) to run Windows XP SP2. Twin Athlon 64's with 4GB RAM......Raid
array........Static hard disk perhaps?? A SunSparc with Windows emulator?

Perhaps if you also considered security this would not be an issue.

Ahem, only when the hackers and secuirity experts knocked down the doors
long enough did Bill Gates realise his software was not so secure. It should
have been tight from the beginning, lord almighty, logins required
permissions so tight you can't breathe, but yet you can walk through the
door when you're on the internet.
Still SP2 is not the whole answer. Security updates are still coming, Bill
still didn't get it right.

Most people make no changes to their computer so the mismatch such as
you have is not an issue.
They only have to worry about spyware, viruses etc while you also have
the mismatch purely due to your own choices.

No one forced you to upgrade to anything.
If you buy hardware requiring something, that is a choice you make.

Buying that digital camera was another choice you made.
The compatibility issues of that camera were also part of your choice.
Hopefully you also complain to the camera manufacturer because of
their lack of newer drivers.

The fact something worked well in the past is no guarantee they will
perform well with modern technology, or do you and your family still
drive the very modern an efficient Ford Model T?

You put bread in a toaster, switch the toaster on, set the shade you want,
the taosting sensor knows what colour you want and the toaster switches off.
Toasters wear out due to fatigue, lack of maintenenance, power supply
problems and protection systems activating. This is the model T. It toasts
bread, that's what it's meant to do, so does an oxy acetelyne torch, an
infra red oven, or even an open fire.
You may think of a PC as complex. IS it? A Boeing 747's instrumentation
system is complex and dwarfs in comparison to a PC, which is a little toy.
Many industrial processes rely on dedicated 'fit for purpose' PLC's which do
the job of supervising complex, for example, chemical processes. PC's are
used as a window only to this process to show the operators the status of
the plant. I don't know of anybody taking a risk and controlling a whole
plant from a PC only. Oh, 'excuse me mr plant president, Windows needs a new
Service PAck, and I need to shut down the plant for an hour while Windows
decides to screw itself up totally and send all our workers home'. Yes, i
can see that happening for sure.

Since you "don't quite understand the theory of installing SP2", it is
probably in your best interests in keeping a computer as bought
without any hardware changes until time to buy a new computer.
That way you will avoid many of these issues in the future.

These are all choices you make.
No one has attempted to force you to make any of the choices you
chose.

I usually have respect for people with credentials, and listen to what MVP's
have to say. In your case, with respect, you're not seeing what problems can
occur and insist that I have made the wrong choices. Where is this written,
in the "PC for dummies book" ?

Choices that I make, have associated risk, the risk of programs not working,
or not living up to the expectations of the hype they are given. That is no
choice at all, that is risk. Every time anybody in the world installs a
program or a piece of hardware, the choice is removed and the risk is set
in.
Any EULA absolves the software manufacturer from any liability and leaves
the risk of running the program to the user. In many cases, countless hours
are wasted since the customer purchased a piece of software, "made a choice"
and took the risk, and it blew up in their face.

And.........where is the "sp2" for Windows2000/Pro/Server.......? This OS is
still supported, where are the major security updates for this OS?
_________________ << the sounds of silence.

 

[Gary]

And you do?
Please tell us all then.

 

[Gary]

and Selzer is ........?

His credentials say he's not an employee of Microsoft. If he doesn't work
for Microsoft, then he has an opinion to offer only. Whether it be accurate
or fantasy who can tell? It's like Fred Flintstone commenting on George W's
colour of tie he chose for the day.

Thanks for the link and have a look at the responses to the article. Yes I
have many clues now, and confirms what I experienced.

 

[Gary]

Hi Ron,

Thank you for your measured reply. The response fails to comprehend, the
software did work on SP1 , and worked well. Microsoft moved the goal posts
with SP2.

I'm sure that when you wrote code for an OS as part of programming, it was
written for the current code and build of Windows at the time (and/or
perhaps some older OS variants) and you thoroughly tested that code to run
and it should have run successfully when the customer installed the program
at their own risk.
I'm also sure you would have included provisions to allow for strengthened
security code that was going to be introduced with SP2, didn't you? Well,
why not?

 

[Ron Bogart]

In

Hi Ron,

Thank you for your measured reply. The response fails to comprehend,
the software did work on SP1 , and worked well. Microsoft moved the
goal posts with SP2.

I'm sure that when you wrote code for an OS as part of programming,
it was written for the current code and build of Windows at the time
(and/or perhaps some older OS variants) and you thoroughly tested
that code to run and it should have run successfully when the
customer installed the program at their own risk.
I'm also sure you would have included provisions to allow for
strengthened security code that was going to be introduced with SP2,
didn't you? Well, why not?

Hi Gary - some good points and some not so good. Did you go to the Site for
this Camera and see if they have an upgrade? No matter what finger you want
to point - it should be pointed to the owner of the product. If they
designed it for Win2000 or WinXP and it doesn't work in XP SP2, then an
upgrade or patch from them needs to be applied. If *they* don't want to
support their product past the original environment they originally sold it
for - then you need to get with them for a replacement or return. Windows
doesn't automagically assume the liability for every product in the
marketplace. Product support is the Seller's liability and as the
environment changes, they either support it or it stops selling - it's a
fact of life for a vendor if they expect to survive in the business world.

 

[Leythos]

"I don't believe that anyone pulled your chain and forced you to purchase
XP or install SP1 or SP2"

The reason I installed XP in the first place was that the software for
digital camera I bought would only run on Windows 2000 SP3 (I had SP4) or
XP. So rather than going back to SP3, I had no choice but to go to XP.
So here I was forced to make the change, and I didn't really need to. And
had to spend money for an OS I really didn't want.

And so, like not using a newsreader that properly quotes replies, you
decided to use a camera that furnished cheap software that would only
run on one platform and only with a specific service pack!? You've got
to be kidding if you think that we're going to let you blame Windows for
your choice or for the cheap software provided by your vendor.

I have 4 digital cameras, everything from a 1.2MP camera costing $100 to
a nice digital camera costing about $700, used then with Windows 2000,
SP3 & 4, and with Windows XP, XP SP1, and XP SP2, without any problems.

You need to learn about vendors pushing crap and stop blaming the OS.

 

[Leythos]

You may think of a PC as complex. IS it? A Boeing 747's instrumentation
system is complex and dwarfs in comparison to a PC, which is a little toy.

Actually, most instrument systems are not all that complex, and most are
made up of Old technology. The technology used in the F14 fighter is
actually quite old, but it's specifically designed for ONE THING.

Many industrial processes rely on dedicated 'fit for purpose' PLC's which do
the job of supervising complex, for example, chemical processes. PC's are
used as a window only to this process to show the operators the status of
the plant. I don't know of anybody taking a risk and controlling a whole
plant from a PC only. Oh, 'excuse me mr plant president, Windows needs a new

Yea, actually, and this is the industry that I come from, there have
been SOFT PLC's for more than 10 years and I know of at least two plants
that we started up on a soft PLC running on NT 4.0 Server that ran for 3
years without rebooting once. Service packs are optional in most cases,
you determine if you want them and if they have benefit, then install
them if needed. These SOFT PLC systems are designed by the installer and
programmers to run ONE THING.

While many PC's are running HMI systems, the plant may not always be
able to function without the users interaction with the HMI. But, again,
these systems are designed and running ONE THING.

Service PAck, and I need to shut down the plant for an hour while Windows
decides to screw itself up totally and send all our workers home'. Yes, i
can see that happening for sure.

Yes, it does happen, same with corporate systems, you schedule updates
during maintenance periods, over holidays, etc... There are always ways
to update the system without turning off everything.

Nothing in your example indicates you understand plant processes or
anything about industrial or HA computing, and your posts about problems
with Windows indicate you are just trolling the group.

Come back when you understand a little more, or when you graduate to
another, higher, level of Troll so it's not as obvious.

 

[Bruce Chambers]

The reason I installed XP in the first place was that the software for
digital camera I bought would only run on Windows 2000 SP3 (I had SP4) or
XP. So rather than going back to SP3, I had no choice but to go to XP.
So here I was forced to make the change, and I didn't really need to. And
had to spend money for an OS I really didn't want.

Oh, please.... All you needed to have done in the first place was to
have looked at the system requirements of that camera _before_ making
the purchase, and then moved on to looking for a model compatible with
Win2K SP4. You were "forced" to upgrade *only* buy your own poor
planning and shopping skills. (And who prevented you from returning the
camera when you finally decided to check its OS-compatibility?) No one
but you bears any responsibility for the consequences of your own
carelessness/haste/ineptitude.




--

Bruce Chambers

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