So you really think Linux is better than Vista, do you?

C

Charlie Wilkes

Actually, I got Suse running on this machine last night. I'm playing
with it now. I have to say, I like it. It's much "peppier" than Ubuntu
and the K-whatever GUI seems well thought out and responsive. Right
now, I'm turning on network services to get it to run as a file server
and FTP server. I haven't gotten far along, but Samba installed and
seems to be running just fine.

Good enough then. I have heard good things about Suse but I haven't
tried it. If it's working well, I think you'll find the learning curve
to be enjoyable rather than frustrating. If you already have Samba up
and running, you must be making fast progress.

Charlie
 
P

PTravel

Charlie Wilkes said:
Good enough then. I have heard good things about Suse but I haven't
tried it. If it's working well, I think you'll find the learning curve
to be enjoyable rather than frustrating. If you already have Samba up
and running, you must be making fast progress.

I spoke too soon. Samba is up and appears to be properly configured. It
shows up on my Vista machine (ha! brought the thread back on-topic. ;) )
but I can't access the shared folders.
 
C

Charlie Wilkes

I spoke too soon. Samba is up and appears to be properly configured.
It shows up on my Vista machine (ha! brought the thread back on-topic.
;) ) but I can't access the shared folders.

Go to http://www.suseforums.net and ask them to help. If it is anything
like the Ubuntu forums, someone will know and be able to help you.

Charlie
 
L

Linonut

After takin' a swig o' grog, Stephan Rose belched out this bit o' wisdom:
I never understood why Visual Studio 2005 takes 2 gigs of space!! It is a
programming IDE for crying out loud! I mean sure, it's a really good
one...but honestly, I've found that MS is kind of neglecting the C/C++
editor as of the latest versions and putting all their new features into
the C# and VB.Net editors.

I have a serious question. We've been using Visual Studio .NET 2002 for
wayyyyyyyyyyyy tooooooooooo lonnnnnnnnnnnng.

Is VS .NET 2005 a worthy upgrade?
My couple meg C/C++ IDE here under linux actually has more features than
VS2005 does (in the C/C++ editors that is). Sad really...

Are you talking about KDevelop?
 
D

Dean G.

Adam said:
My take, people endlessly evangelizing for Macs or Linux should be
treated as the TROLLS they are. This is a Microsoft support group for
Vista. Not some other browser, not some other operating system.

For idiots, and nobody kid yourself, idiots is what they are to
constantly nag people that already are Windows users, many who have
already purchased Vista or likely will at some point is beyond being
rude. There is no need to be subjected to constant nagging about how
product X is so much better. Doing so day after day like a few clods
do is the equivalent of shouting fire in a theater.


As for troll and idiot : look in the mirror : you have posted this to
a linux newsgroup (did you check the header ? ok, you're not an idiot,
you are an ignoramus). And while we're on the subject, the original
came from one of your people who crossposted into our group. So before
you get all high and mighty stupid, at least figure out what you're
talking about, so you can avoid making complete fool of yourself in
the future.
There are rules of conduct and these morons are clearly out of order.

Yes, you are clearly out of order, going to a linux group and calling
people posting linux topics to a linux group trolls. That only makes
you look like an overly-pompous fool at best and a troll at worst.
They are deliberately with hostile intention trying to distrup this
newsgroup and should be shown the contempt they so richly deserve.

No, your window guy who crossposted is the person to blame. Replying
in kind is not trolling. At least stop to think a half second or
longer before pontificating about something you obviously know too
little about.

Dean G.
 
S

Stephan Rose

Linonut said:
After takin' a swig o' grog, Stephan Rose belched out this bit o' wisdom:


I have a serious question. We've been using Visual Studio .NET 2002 for
wayyyyyyyyyyyy tooooooooooo lonnnnnnnnnnnng.

For C# or any other .Net Framework development, YES it is a very significant
update, especially all the refactoring stuff that was added.

For C/C++ development...I don't see a difference.
Is VS .NET 2005 a worthy upgrade?


Are you talking about KDevelop?

I am using Anjuta right now which I ended up liking a little more, I've used
KDevelop too though.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®ã“ã¨æ€ã„出ã™æ—¥ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
å›ã®ã“ã¨å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸã¨ããŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
O

OK

After takin' a swig o' grog, Stephan Rose belched out this bit o' wisdom:


I have a serious question. We've been using Visual Studio .NET 2002 for
wayyyyyyyyyyyy tooooooooooo lonnnnnnnnnnnng.

Is VS .NET 2005 a worthy upgrade?

What kind of answer do you expect? Yes of course. One of the most
conformant C++ compiler, better debugger, safer and more compliant
standard librairies, profile guided optimizations, lots of
improvements for C/C++ developpers:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bw65k95a(vs.80).aspx

Why don't you check the free Express version?

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/downloads/
 
C

CptDondo

Adam said:
Linux versions often aren't stable, they often have more issues then
Windows. There is little worthwhile support for any flavor. Finding
device drivers is at times next to impossible, if you do find them
they often don't work correctly. The software mostly is Mickey Mouse
grade. Nothing to interest any serious users. Which is why NO major
software house develops for that platform. Never have and likely never
will.

So how do you explain such companies as MySQL, Oracle, Apache, Sendmail,
etc. all have linux support?

And how do you explain Pixar, etc. using linux farms to render movies?

And how do you explain Google running linux farms for its search engine?

How do you explain cities and countries going to open source?
You want to get serious work done with your computer, Windows is the
only viable answer if you don't want some overpriced toy like computer
like a Mac. That explains why Windows has over 90% of the PC market.
I guess that depends on what you want to do.

The biggest difference is how each OS handles failures. With Windows,
you essentially have to wait for the hardware/software manufacturer to
release a new, updated version, which may or may not address your
problem. (Just read this newsgroup.) You can try hacking the registry
- which is about as counter-GUI and counter-intuitive as anything I've seen.

With linux, you can get the source and fix the problem yourself. Or you
can contact the driver author and participate in the fix. I've had
patches in as short as 2 hours from identifying the problem.

So it all depends on what you want and how you work, and what you define
as "serious work". I have XP+cygwin on one monitor and Debian Sarge on
the other; I do most of my "serious work" in Debian.
 
A

Adam Albright

So how do you explain such companies as MySQL, Oracle, Apache, Sendmail,
etc. all have linux support?

Define support. Simply saying a handful of applications work cross
platform under Linux isn't my idea of "support".
I guess that depends on what you want to do.

Exactly. Linux may be suitable for some corporate network or server
tasks. The topic stated talking about PC use. I know few people that
set up public networks or servers from their home, do you? You've in
effect moved the goal posts. I never said Linux didn't have a place in
the wider universe, I did address its use for the typical PC user.
Accordingly most "typical home users" will find any flavor of Linux
too geeky for their tastes.
The biggest difference is how each OS handles failures. With Windows,
you essentially have to wait for the hardware/software manufacturer to
release a new, updated version, which may or may not address your
problem. (Just read this newsgroup.) You can try hacking the registry
- which is about as counter-GUI and counter-intuitive as anything I've seen.

With linux, you can get the source and fix the problem yourself.

Priceless. You think Joe Average is prepared to tinker with the driver
software himself and rewrite it? Silly boy. You just confirmed my main
point. Linux is mostly a toy for geeks to endlessly play with. It
isn't main stream, wasn't developed for main stream and it NEVER will
go main stream. It at best fills a nitch. Wannabe geeks with pocket
protectors, a runny nose and thick glasses seems the typical
stereotype and Linux fanatic. said:
Or you can contact the driver author and participate in the fix. I've had
patches in as short as 2 hours from identifying the problem.

See above. Wishful thinking for the typical end user and you know it.
So it all depends on what you want and how you work, and what you define
as "serious work". I have XP+cygwin on one monitor and Debian Sarge on
the other; I do most of my "serious work" in Debian.

Wonderful. I use BeOs myself.
 
H

Hadron Quark

Stephan Rose said:
For C# or any other .Net Framework development, YES it is a very significant
update, especially all the refactoring stuff that was added.

For C/C++ development...I don't see a difference.


I am using Anjuta right now which I ended up liking a little more, I've used
KDevelop too though.

You think Anjuta is better than Visual Studio??? Bloody hell.
 
C

CptDondo

Adam said:
Define support. Simply saying a handful of applications work cross
platform under Linux isn't my idea of "support".

Either have their own linux distro (Oracle) or have linux as a primary
platform with the majority of market share.
Priceless. You think Joe Average is prepared to tinker with the driver
software himself and rewrite it? Silly boy.

By the same token, you thing Joe Average is going to fire up regedit and
dive into HKLM/somebizarrehexstring and edit things?

Or secpol editor?

It's whatever you are familiar with; and most people are not familiar
with anything even vaguely computer related.

Either OS can be configured as a black box; most people are completely
clueless when it comes to anything other than "click on this." Based on
that, more people are "running" linux that Widnows - it runs your phone,
your watch, the info kiosk at the mall....

MS has done a credible job, but so have a number of linux vendors. With
Vista, I see the MS monolith cracking; it may or may not ever be fixed.
The next version of MS OS is going to have to be modular - the
complexity is just too great.

Heck, I'm still getting hit with CodeRed from compromised IIS servers.
Sad but true....

Again, it's whatever you are familiar with. Linux works on the desktop;
so does Windows. Linux works on the server, so does Windows.
 
C

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 00:10:47 -0600, Bill
I worked for most of the day with Windows XP on my dual boot machine.
One of the first things I noticed was that my movies did not look
anywhere near as sharp and clear, as they do when I use PCLINUXOS. I
tried three different movie viewers and they all suffered from the same
lack of clarity.

That may be commercial malware built into Vista itself, i.e. DRM-style
crippling of hi-quality content to benefit Blu-Ray et al. The fact
that the effect pervades all players suggests this, unless it's just a
duff codec that applies to all players.

Wait a moment - you did say "XP', didn't you?
None of the Windows movie viewers would read a corrupt
AVI file, while I have several movie viewers in Linus which will read them.

That may not be something to boast about - perhaps Windows is doing
some extra sanity-checking to avoid buffer overruns, which Linux isn't
doing as the result of "can't happen here" denial :)
I usually have ten or 12 movie viewers ready to use in Linux for
different purposes.

It's good to have multiple players, especially when it comes to broken
files you want to play, but these days I'd consider "media" as an
exploitable edge-facing surface, and be careful with "found" content.
I was also frustrated by the lack of desktops in Windows. You can
use the powertoy which will give you 4 desktops, but I am use to
working with 10 desktops and switching between them rather than
switching between programs on one desktop.

Oh, OK... strokes/folks, I guess. I've had several virtual desktop
tools for Windows past and present, and didn't really use them as I'm
not doing the sort of things where they'd be useful. I expect there's
a few add-ons that don't limit you to 4 desktops, unless there are
some sort of device driver or scalability reasons why not?
I also noticed that my wireless wasnt working at full potential. I get
better throughput with the built-in driver in Linux.

This is usually a matter of how different WiFi standards are allowed
to interoperate, and can usually be controlled via settings. I avoid
wireless altogether, but I recall reading about this... let's see...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/802.11

It doesn't seem to cover it there, but 802.11b and 802.11g use the
same frequency band and can crowd each other out, or you can end up
with a slower "b" connection being negotiated instead of "g".
I also had to be careful what websites I visited.

Well, duh.
According to www.stopbadware.org, there are now 23,816 sites
which can dump malware, viruses, and spyware on your computer, if you use
windows. Normally, in Linux, I can go wherever I want, without any
worries, but in Windows, you always have to wonder, if you go to a new
site, if you will leave it with an infested OS.

Enjoy your age of innocence while it lasts ;-)
I was also irritated by all the system pop-ups in Windows. The antivirus
announced that it was updating, the system constantly harrassed me that I
had my automatic updates turned off (Microsoft has again decided that IE7
is a critical update, after leaving it for a couple of weeks in the
optional updates.

I'd never go back to IE 6, being very happy with IE 7. Also, IE 7 is
structurally more resistant to exploits, so if it's suddenly re-rated
up the "you need this" ladder, you can guess why.

We saw the same sort of thing with XP SP2; new exploits discovered
after SP2 was released, that didn't affect SP2 at all because of the
rather deep re-engineering that went on there. I'm half-expecting
similar mileage with IE 7 compared to IE 6.
I have seen too many disasters that people have
experienced after upgrading to that piece of c__p)

Details to back up that assertion, please?
Meanwhile I am trying to get some work done. Finally, in disgust, I
announced to myself that I really didnt need to be working in XP, and
reboot my system into the relatively peace and quiet of my PCLINUXOS.

All you're really telling us is that what you know best, works best
for you. I could give you a tale of starting up Ubuntu and getting
pissed off with automatic dial-up that can't be cancelled, and requies
scratching around with command line tools... same thing with its Grub
boot loader, requiring more command line fiddling to change the
defaults and timeouts.

You'd prolly fix those within minutes of installing Ubuntu without
giving it a second thought, whereas I'd prolly clean up those
"annoying pop-ups" etc. in similar time.

Unsurprisingly, I'm more productive in an OS where I have most of my
experience than one I visit for a day. Does that mean I consider
Linux to be "worse than" Windows? Nope; just that right now, it
doesn't suit me as well... to really compare them objectively, I'd
want to be equally experienced in both, as well as used to operating
both from their respective native philosophies (rather than trying
Windows tactics in Linux or vice versa).

It's not easy to find folks equally experienced in multiple
contemporary platforms. That's why these debates get so shrill.

No, but his experience may no longer fit today's reality.

Most folks with multi-platform experience do so after moving from one
platform to another, which means the experience is not with
contemporary versions of the platform. My own experience with Linux
has been in fits and starts over some years; in the case of Ubuntu,
prolly about a year or two ago.

So maybe I can compare Ubuntu with XP as contemporary OSs, but it
would be unfair to compare that dated Ubuntu experience with Vista.


--------------- ---- --- -- - - - -
Saws are too hard to use.
Be easier to use!
 
C

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:50:01 -0400, "Mike Hall - MS MVP"
That was the original concept of Linux.. a barebones, yet highly capable OS
that could be easily customized for 'the' task in hand..

Yup... like DOS / Win3.yuk, it separated kernel from GUI, but did so
at a far better "split point"; the OS had the guts of memory and
process management, while the GUI was just a GUI - and could be
swapped out with other GUIs via the X-windows standard.

As a capable multi-platform OS, UNIX became a natural choice to
underwrite other minority OSs, especially where these OSs were more
interested in things other than managing the system.

So we saw the PICK database OS porting over to run on UNIX in the
early 1990s, and more recently MacOS porting its GUI to a Linux base.
The Linux trolls in here quote the original mandate for Linux, but for a
very different product to the original concept.. the most popular distros
for personal desktop use are as bogged down with GUI and programs as ever
Windows is.. now, Linux Distos have minimum memory and disk space
requirements approaching Windows minimums..

Yep. Also, a popular distro will typically bundle a lot of stuff,
much of it edge-facting, and while that's a useful head start for a
minority OS, it's also a lot of potential risk surfaces.

It's not often I read about *NIX exploits, but one that caught my
interest was one that used malformed content to enter the system via a
popular MP3 player add-on, by overruning a buffer or some such. So
when posters say "I can play broken media files in my Linux, but I
can't in Windows XP", that makes me a bit nervous ;-)


Linux is still best suited to fairly tech-orientated users, who can
make best use of the development opportunities it offers.

One of the best opportunities available to Linux, as a way of reaching
these users, is as a CD/DVD/USB-booted maintenance OS from which NTFS
can be repaired, data can be recovered, or malware detected and
cleaned. Once techs get familiar with Linux, it's a small step to
promoting it to end users, as well as setting up end user systems.

Knoppix and others did have a go at this in the XP era, but have been
surpassed by Bart as the mOS of choice for XP. Vista at least has a
mOS (the DVD boots into a CLI WinPE/RE-like environment), but it can't
run scanners etc. relative to the HD installation's registry hives as
Bart (via the RunScanner plugin) can.

However, it's a tall order to expect a Linux mOS to safely write
changes to registry hives and NTFS, both of which are moving and
poorly-documented targets.


The other opportunity offered to Linux is to bypass DRM-style
crippling of functionality, as built into Vista. We may see a few
fast-moving variants for the purposes of cracking such material, but
the potential for higher, cleaner and un-blemished media performance
may make it suitable for content creators too.

Right now, MS has done nothing for those who want to produce (rather
than consume) music on the PC, and without them pushing
functionalities such as multi-channel recording, the sound card
hardware folks have also largely ignored these needs.

We get lovely 6x2-socket audio built into motherboards and cards, but
can we use 5 of those stereo jacks to input 10 different channels for
recording? Nope; they're all uselessly hardwired to "home theater".

The overall result; Microsoft smells like it's favoring media pimps
over artists. Modern technology allows any user to become a digital
photographer or movie maker, and Windows recognises this, with picture
editors and Movie Maker since the days of WinME.

So why is home produced music so studiously ignored?


--------------- ---- --- -- - - - -
Saws are too hard to use.
Be easier to use!
 
A

Adam Albright

That's simply not true. I have many players that not only read and
play video files correctly in Windows where Microsoft's player can't,
but some will even play only the first part of a multi-part vid and
again have no problem all.
That may not be something to boast about - perhaps Windows is doing
some extra sanity-checking to avoid buffer overruns, which Linux isn't
doing as the result of "can't happen here" denial :)

Actually Windows' Media Player in spite of it being in version eleven
is rather dumb and chokes on all kinds of files, corrupt or not.
Enjoy your age of innocence while it lasts ;-)

I was going to say the same that have UAC turned on and think they're
protected. LOL!

No, but his experience may no longer fit today's reality.

Could me, but you know what they say... first impressions. I gave
Linux not one, but seven different shots over the span of a few years.
I saw little improvement from the first version I tried. While for
sure clunky in some ways and way bloated, Windows has at least evolved
over say what it was in Windows 3.1 or Windows 95 into what it is now.
Still my biggest gripe is Microsoft still hasn't truly fixed Windows
mostly because I guess they can't without risking kissing tens of
millions of customers good bye if they truly started from scratch and
really made Windows or whatever replaces it really secure where
probably most if not all your current hardware and software wouldn't
work any longer in the replacement.
 
S

Stephan Rose

Hadron said:
You think Anjuta is better than Visual Studio??? Bloody hell.

Compared to the C# editor features, of course not. It is very excellent
done, and is far superior to any IDE I know.

Their C/C++ editor though, everytime I use it, I feel like I am back in VS++
6.



--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

å›ã®ã“ã¨æ€ã„出ã™æ—¥ãªã‚“ã¦ãªã„ã®ã¯
å›ã®ã“ã¨å¿˜ã‚ŒãŸã¨ããŒãªã„ã‹ã‚‰
 
C

CptDondo

PTravel said:
So . . . tell me again how Linux is better than Vista. Linux isn't
plug-and-play. Linux is slower than Win2000, at least on my wife's old
machine. Linux is buggy. And, most of all, Linux requires a heck of a
lot of specialized knowledge. I've been mucking around with computers
since high school (which was many decades ago). The first computer I
programmed was in a refrigerated room and was fed a deck of punch
cards. I've written in assembler, as well as higher level languages. I
don't have trouble configuring Windows machines (though I'm not, by any
means, an average user -- I know what I'm doing).

Here's one reason: (3 actually)

<http://www.seiner.com/blog/Travels/index.php?cat=6>

This is running on - what - 6 year old hardware. (do they even make
Socket A Athlon XP stuff anymore?)

Windows still can't run multi-user. (and yes, that's an issue for some
of us - I've eliminated 4 computers by setting up 2 multi-headed boxes.)

(Yeah, I know - multi-user is too geeky, so pase, not cool. But it
saves me money, maintenance, and time.)

As for performance, I can bring the system to its knees by playing HD
content and two games at the same time.... But it's an Athlon XP 2000+
for crying out loud.

If I play SD content or a video, my kids can play their normal games and
all is well.

Anyway, I'd really like for MS to be more open. The whole WGA and now
DRM thing is too crushing for me. I refuse to use it for that reason -
it's privacy concerns and the implied assumption that I am stealing
their stuff and it's up to me to prove that I am not. Guilty first. Bah.
 
P

PTravel

CptDondo said:
Here's one reason: (3 actually)

<http://www.seiner.com/blog/Travels/index.php?cat=6>

This is running on - what - 6 year old hardware. (do they even make
Socket A Athlon XP stuff anymore?)

Windows still can't run multi-user. (and yes, that's an issue for some of
us - I've eliminated 4 computers by setting up 2 multi-headed boxes.)

(Yeah, I know - multi-user is too geeky, so pase, not cool. But it saves
me money, maintenance, and time.)

I'm not 100% I understand what you mean by multi-user -- you mean two
different users at once? Yes, I guess that's true, but why would I want to
do that?
As for performance, I can bring the system to its knees by playing HD
content and two games at the same time.... But it's an Athlon XP 2000+
for crying out loud.

With all due respect, that may get to the core of the difference. I don't
use my computer for playing games -- I use it for doing work. I do watch
the occassional movie on my laptop when I'm flying long-haul, but it handles
that admirably. I also sometimes watch my Slingbox in hotel rooms -- again,
it handles that perfectly.

If I play SD content or a video, my kids can play their normal games and
all is well.

Well, I don't have kids. ;)

I do edit video, and Adobe Premiere Pro runs great under Vista. There's
nothing remotely close to Premiere that runs under Linux. I also edit
digital still photographs and Photoshop runs great under Vista (and offers
far more control than Gimp).

However, getting back to the work paradigm, Firefox is a more capable
browser under Vista than Linux when I'm doing legal research on Lexis or
Westlaw. LiveNote, as far as I know, doesn't have a Linux version at all.
A lot of the software that I use for work simply isn't available for Linux
or, if it is, doesn't run as well or as completely.

However, most of all, I don't have to have the equivalent of an
undergraduate degree in computer science to run Vista. I do to successfully
install and maintain Linux.
Anyway, I'd really like for MS to be more open. The whole WGA and now DRM
thing is too crushing for me. I refuse to use it for that reason - it's
privacy concerns and the implied assumption that I am stealing their stuff
and it's up to me to prove that I am not. Guilty first. Bah.

I agree with that completely. I refuse to install WGA on my XP Pro
machines, and if I can keep it off (or get if off) my Vista machine, I
would. DRM is another issue altogether. The problem isn't the concept of
DRM, but the implementation -- it restricts legal usage of licensed and
purchased content.
 
J

Jeffrey S. Sparks

Windows still can't run multi-user. (and yes, that's an issue for some of
us - I've eliminated 4 computers by setting up 2 multi-headed boxes.)

Isn't that called fast user switching in Vista?
As for performance, I can bring the system to its knees by playing HD
content and two games at the same time.... But it's an Athlon XP 2000+
for crying out loud.

If I play SD content or a video, my kids can play their normal games and
all is well.

Anyway, I'd really like for MS to be more open. The whole WGA and now DRM
thing is too crushing for me. I refuse to use it for that reason - it's
privacy concerns and the implied assumption that I am stealing their stuff
and it's up to me to prove that I am not. Guilty first. Bah.

Microsoft is not the only company to require activation for their software.
I can think of several right off the top of my head that requires their
software to be activated or it will stop working. Some of them you had
better uninstall correctly in order to get your activations back and are
actually much worse than microsoft. (i'm not trying to stick up for
microsoft on the whole activation thing but it is slowly spreading to other
companies and I don't think complaining about it in this NG is going to
change that.)

As for the DRM stuff, while I think it is stupid, microsoft did not design
it they are simply implementing it so that when HDCP type media does come
out (in another 5 years if at all) you will be able to play it on your pc.
From what I understand other OS's like linux do not have it in their OS so
you won't be able to play those type of disks AT ALL on them.

DRM is everywhere. MPIAA, RIAA and even sony with their "rootkits" trying
to block people from making illegal copies. As long as you have people
willing to pirate software, music, movies, etc then you are going to see
things like DRM evolve.

Jeff
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top