running out of space.........I "guess"?

G

Gerry

Mike

Every time you reply you dig yourself in deeper.

"Your suggestions would only free up a small amount of space which would
soon be lost again if anything else was installed. " How can you
possibly know that?

It is quite possible that my suggestions can achieve an increase in free
disk space of 4.2 gb or 30% of the partition. If they only achieve 25%,
the problem will be resolved because the growth in used space will occur
in future mainly on D and not C. You proposal just wastes space in an
enlarged C partition.

Your comments were ill considered because you do not understand how to
get the most of limited space on C . They were uninvited, misguided and
unhelpful.

--


Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
G

Gerry

Ken

They are uncommon but the example I encountered was extremely helpful.
The point being they go against generally accepted rules so, whenever
stating a rule, never say it always applies. The exception can make you
look a fool.

--


Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Ken

They are uncommon but the example I encountered was extremely helpful.
The point being they go against generally accepted rules so, whenever
stating a rule, never say it always applies. The exception can make you
look a fool.


Yes, I always say there are exceptions (see my quote below).

But my point is that the exceptions are so rare that they can
essentially be ignored. If you reinstall Windows, you have to
reinstall almost all your programs. Although if you reinstall all of
them, you might install one or two you didn't have to, it hardly pays
to worry about it. So I recommend just installing them all.
 
T

Terry R.

The date and time was Tuesday, June 30, 2009 10:34:30 AM, and on a whim,
Ken Blake, MVP pounded out on the keyboard:
Yes, I always say there are exceptions (see my quote below).

But my point is that the exceptions are so rare that they can
essentially be ignored. If you reinstall Windows, you have to
reinstall almost all your programs. Although if you reinstall all of
them, you might install one or two you didn't have to, it hardly pays
to worry about it. So I recommend just installing them all.


They are not that rare. I have a folder with 24 programs (quite a few
utilities) that don't need reinstalling.

When I set up my partition of Win7, I created a shortcut to Firefox and
Thunderbird from the shared E: partition where all this workstations
programs are installed. Both launched without installing. I had to
point the TB profiles.ini file to the profile located on D:, and point
FF to the profile on D: also, but that's it. My CD/DVD labeling
software doesn't require reinstalling. My calendar program doesn't
require reinstalling. My note keeping program doesn't require reinstalling.

Only the largest of programs, WordPerfect, Lotus 123, and Studio
Ultimate required it so far. I'm sure Acronis will also, but I use
batch scripts for daily backup, so no reinstalling there either.

So a user needs to actually test a program to know for sure. No one can
just state, "you have to reinstall almost all your programs...". And
for those who never do it and just think that's the way it is, you need
to do testing yourself.

Terry R.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

The date and time was Tuesday, June 30, 2009 10:34:30 AM, and on a whim,
Ken Blake, MVP pounded out on the keyboard:



They are not that rare. I have a folder with 24 programs (quite a few
utilities) that don't need reinstalling.

When I set up my partition of Win7, I created a shortcut to Firefox and
Thunderbird from the shared E: partition where all this workstations
programs are installed. Both launched without installing. I had to
point the TB profiles.ini file to the profile located on D:, and point
FF to the profile on D: also, but that's it. My CD/DVD labeling
software doesn't require reinstalling. My calendar program doesn't
require reinstalling. My note keeping program doesn't require reinstalling.

Only the largest of programs, WordPerfect, Lotus 123, and Studio
Ultimate required it so far. I'm sure Acronis will also, but I use
batch scripts for daily backup, so no reinstalling there either.

So a user needs to actually test a program to know for sure. No one can
just state, "you have to reinstall almost all your programs...". And
for those who never do it and just think that's the way it is, you need
to do testing yourself.


In my experience they are very rare. As a result, doing any kind of
backup of your programs so you will still have them if you reinstall
Windows is foolhardy. You will have to reinstall most of your
programs, so restoring backups is of next to no use.
 
T

Terry R.

The date and time was Tuesday, June 30, 2009 12:03:48 PM, and on a whim,
Ken Blake, MVP pounded out on the keyboard:
In my experience they are very rare. As a result, doing any kind of
backup of your programs so you will still have them if you reinstall
Windows is foolhardy. You will have to reinstall most of your
programs, so restoring backups is of next to no use.

Since I have 6 OS's on this workstation, I test this and do it quite
frequently. As I also stated, in the newly installed Win7 partition, I
am using a browser, email client, calendaring software, and note taking
software and didn't have to install ONE of them. Just created shortcuts
from the app program folder on my Programs drive.

I do backup my Programs partition, every time I backup my OS partitions,
and it is far from "foolhardy".

Like I said, it is up to a user to determine whether or not their
programs will run without reinstallation. It is poor advice IMO for
anyone to make blanket statements like that without knowing what
software that person is using.

I was sharing my experience with you so you now know they are not that
rare. And you cannot state "most" to me. ;-)

Of course if someone uses all MS software, ALL bets are off!


Terry R.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Since I have 6 OS's on this workstation, I test this and do it quite
frequently. As I also stated, in the newly installed Win7 partition, I
am using a browser, email client, calendaring software, and note taking
software and didn't have to install ONE of them. Just created shortcuts
from the app program folder on my Programs drive.

I do backup my Programs partition, every time I backup my OS partitions,
and it is far from "foolhardy".

Like I said, it is up to a user to determine whether or not their
programs will run without reinstallation. It is poor advice IMO for
anyone to make blanket statements like that without knowing what
software that person is using.

I was sharing my experience with you so you now know they are not that
rare. And you cannot state "most" to me. ;-)

Of course if someone uses all MS software, ALL bets are off!


I completely disagree with you on this, but this is the end of the
thread as far as I'm concerned. Our experience is completely
different, but I don't want to keep repeating myself.
 
S

Shenan Stanley

Terry said:
The date and time was Tuesday, June 30, 2009 12:03:48 PM, and on a
whim, Ken Blake, MVP pounded out on the keyboard:


Since I have 6 OS's on this workstation, I test this and do it quite
frequently. As I also stated, in the newly installed Win7
partition, I am using a browser, email client, calendaring
software, and note taking software and didn't have to install ONE
of them. Just created shortcuts from the app program folder on my
Programs drive.
I do backup my Programs partition, every time I backup my OS
partitions, and it is far from "foolhardy".

Like I said, it is up to a user to determine whether or not their
programs will run without reinstallation. It is poor advice IMO for
anyone to make blanket statements like that without knowing what
software that person is using.

I was sharing my experience with you so you now know they are not
that rare. And you cannot state "most" to me. ;-)

Of course if someone uses all MS software, ALL bets are off!

*You/your situation* is rare. ;-)

While you may have a half-dozen or a dozen or so friends that do something
like you have there (6 OSes on a workstation, multiboot, re-installing on a
whim, etc) - you'll pass more people in a crowded restaurant that would have
no idea what it is you are talking about and their installed programs (if
they have any) are likely of the type that would need to be reinstalled if
they formatted and re-installed the OS.

In other words - your case may not be rare in a certain circle - but in an
overall population - it would be rare. ;-) So yes - in the larger picture -
*most* is more accurate, along with the rarity of the situation you have (24
applications that do not require re-installation if you format the hard disk
drive and install the OS (Windows XP) fresh.)
 
T

Terry R.

The date and time was Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:19:59 PM, and on a whim,
Shenan Stanley pounded out on the keyboard:
*You/your situation* is rare. ;-)

While you may have a half-dozen or a dozen or so friends that do something
like you have there (6 OSes on a workstation, multiboot, re-installing on a
whim, etc) - you'll pass more people in a crowded restaurant that would have
no idea what it is you are talking about and their installed programs (if
they have any) are likely of the type that would need to be reinstalled if
they formatted and re-installed the OS.

In other words - your case may not be rare in a certain circle - but in an
overall population - it would be rare. ;-) So yes - in the larger picture -
*most* is more accurate, along with the rarity of the situation you have (24
applications that do not require re-installation if you format the hard disk
drive and install the OS (Windows XP) fresh.)

Hi Shenan,

I wasn't talking about my "case", because I know my workstation is far
from the norm.

Ken said programs that didn't need reinstalling were rare. I pointed
out that wasn't the case at all. While there is a lot of software that
requires it, there appears to be a lot that doesn't, as I mentioned with
Firefox and Thunderbird just being a couple I recently discovered, as
registry values are written on first launch. Did you know that? I
didn't either until I tried it a couple weeks ago.

Sure, it generally is recommended to have your program discs available
when installing clean. The point is not to say a program requires
reinstalling until you've tested it yourself or know what software the
user owns. I've been very successful with some clients who moved to a
new computer and didn't have installation discs for their programs.
Some required a lot of registry searches and exports, but it still can
be done. And if the software company is no longer around, replacement
discs may not even be available.



Terry R.
 
M

Mike Hall - MVP

Gerry said:
Mike

Every time you reply you dig yourself in deeper.

"Your suggestions would only free up a small amount of space which would
soon be lost again if anything else was installed. " How can you possibly
know that?

It is quite possible that my suggestions can achieve an increase in free
disk space of 4.2 gb or 30% of the partition. If they only achieve 25%,
the problem will be resolved because the growth in used space will occur
in future mainly on D and not C. You proposal just wastes space in an
enlarged C partition.

Your comments were ill considered because you do not understand how to get
the most of limited space on C . They were uninvited, misguided and
unhelpful.

--


Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Gerry

Recycle Bin allocates 10% of partition space by default. On a 14gb
partition, that is not exactly a huge amount of space. Reducing it by half
will free up approximately 625mb..

Restore points have a 12% allocation, so the free space gained will not be
much more than was gained by reducing Recycle Bin..

Add the newly freed up space to what is already free and there still isn't
enough free space to defrag on a 14gb partition..

Removing the update uninstall files releases a small amount of space and is
a desperate measure in real terms..

The consequences of what you suggested:

If the OP does decide to delete a bunch of stuff and it exceeds what is now
a very small recycle bin, the overflow will be lost forever..

If the OP cuts down System Restore space, it will not take much to displace
existing restore points which may or may not be useful in the event of a
problem. In your estimation, only one is required, but not everybody thinks
that way.

So the ability to recover files from Recycle bin has been compromised, as
has the ability to have a choice of restore points, and for what? There
still will not be enough free space to even defrag with any certainty.

The OP has already moved photos etc out of MY DOCUMENTS, so there may not be
too much of a saving to be made by moving what is left.

Temporary Internet file space is also a percentage of the partition size, so
the saving will again most likely be small as the partition size is only
14gb.

I have no idea why you think that a possible 4.2gb can be saved on the OP's
computer

In the meantime, there is 80gb free space on the second partition of which,
by use of a FREE and very stable partition manager, part could be allocated
to the Boot partition and solve the OPs problem for a considerable while.

I see that you gave another person exactly the same advice and in a scenario
where no partition or drive size info was made public. I stick to the view
that your suggestions are only temporary until such time as more space can
be allocated from a second partition, or a larger hard drive purchased in
the event that the entire drive is full, especially where some remedial work
has been done and there still is nothing like enough free space available.

During the course of this discussion, I have been chopping up and rejoining
partitions using Easeus on a seven year old XP machine without incident. I
would be interested to know what you have against partition managers,
especially modern ones.
 
G

Gerry

Mike

Reduce Recycle Bin 5%
Reduce System Restore 7%
Relocate Temporary Internet Files 3%
NTFS compression uninstall folders 3% plus

Sub total
18% plus

The remainder are difficult to estimate not knowing enough about how the
computer is used
Relocate Outlook Express Store 0% to 7%
Relocate My Documents Cannot be calculated
Relocate My Music Cannot be calculated

The last three headings can contribute a little or a lot. Without
knowing more about the programmes being used it is difficult to quantify
the precise areas and potential for savings. The user could be using
backup software and leaving the backup on C.

To be using 14 gb means either a lot of programmes or some are taking up
a lot of space. This suggests a review of programmes to see whether any
are likely to be required in the future might be productive. A review
might also reveal a few resource hungry programmes where there are
better substitutes. An example, which readily comes to mind, is Foxit
for Adobe Acrobat Reader -better PDF reader performance with significant
disk space savings.

If you are sitting at the target computer it does not take long to
assess the potential for savings. The OP can readily do that by looking
at each of my suggestions in turn and it does not take a lot of time.

"Add the newly freed up space to what is already free and there still
isn't enough free space to defrag on a 14gb partition."

This statement is disproved above. You are also basing your argument on
the 15% "rule" and it is not rocket science to defragment where there is
less. You should also note that relocating reduces fragmentation in the
C partition so it needs to be done less often.

"If the OP does decide to delete a bunch of stuff and it exceeds what
is now a very small recycle bin, the overflow will be lost forever."

The "stuff" likely to be deleted has been relocated elsewhere. How long
do you need to keep your trash?

Continuing inline.
Gerry

Recycle Bin allocates 10% of partition space by default. On a 14gb
partition, that is not exactly a huge amount of space. Reducing it by
half will free up approximately 625mb..

Restore points have a 12% allocation, so the free space gained will
not be much more than was gained by reducing Recycle Bin..

Add the newly freed up space to what is already free and there still
isn't enough free space to defrag on a 14gb partition..

Removing the update uninstall files releases a small amount of space
and is a desperate measure in real terms..

This was not suggested. Read the suggestion again. It saves 420 mb here.
Not my idea of a small amount of space!
The consequences of what you suggested:

If the OP does decide to delete a bunch of stuff and it exceeds what
is now a very small recycle bin, the overflow will be lost forever..

If the OP cuts down System Restore space, it will not take much to
displace existing restore points which may or may not be useful in
the event of a problem. In your estimation, only one is required, but
not everybody thinks that way.

My suggestion does not limit retention of restore points to one. Do you
ever throw away your junk?
So the ability to recover files from Recycle bin has been
compromised, as has the ability to have a choice of restore points,
and for what? There still will not be enough free space to even
defrag with any certainty.

Disproved above!
The OP has already moved photos etc out of MY DOCUMENTS, so there may
not be too much of a saving to be made by moving what is left.

Speculation on your part!
Temporary Internet file space is also a percentage of the partition
size, so the saving will again most likely be small as the partition
size is only 14gb.

Is 400 mb a small saving?
I have no idea why you think that a possible 4.2gb can be saved on
the OP's computer

The maximum possible.
In the meantime, there is 80gb free space on the second partition of
which, by use of a FREE and very stable partition manager, part could
be allocated to the Boot partition and solve the OPs problem for a
considerable while.

Not a market leader!
I see that you gave another person exactly the same advice and in a
scenario where no partition or drive size info was made public.

Without knowing the context how do you expect me to respond?
I
stick to the view that your suggestions are only temporary until such
time as more space can be allocated from a second partition, or a
larger hard drive purchased in the event that the entire drive is
full, especially where some remedial work has been done and there
still is nothing like enough free space available.

All things in life are temporary. That is life. Why will it be necessary
to allocate more space from the second partition? If the entire drive is
full the sizing of partitions ceases to have any relevance so your point
is irrelevant.
During the course of this discussion, I have been chopping up and
rejoining partitions using Easeus on a seven year old XP machine
without incident. I would be interested to know what you have against
partition managers, especially modern ones.

Are you comparing your computer skills to those typically seeking help
here? I would not expect a typical user to achieve the standard I would
expect you to achieve. Just because you have made changes without
incident does not mean others will have the same outcome.

I am not against Partition Managers. On the contrary I prefer
partitioned to non-partitioned disks. I see the advantages, whereas
others prefer not to partition.


--


Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
M

Mike Hall - MVP

Gerry

Fit a second drive in your computer, install Easeus, and try it out for
yourself. The free version does 32bit.
 
G

Gerry

Mike

I already have two internal drives.


--


Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
B

Bill Sharpe

Gerry said:
You only need a single restore point before the problem arose not every
Tom , Dick or Harry back to time immemorial! In reality many users have
great difficulties using System Restore. Many users have abandoned
System Restore for other backup software.

System restore is NOT backup software. Users who think this way are in
for a rude awakening.

Bill
 
G

Gerry

Bill

That's yesterday's news if they have moved on.

--


Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
M

Mike Hall - MVP

Gerry said:
Mike

I already have two internal drives.


--


Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


So try Easeus out for yourself then..
 
M

Mike Hall - MVP

Gerry said:
Mike

And your earlier message was?
http://snurl.com/lozuc [groups_google_co_uk]
--


Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So try Easeus out for yourself then..


Gerry

There is a risk of partial or total failure every time that a computer (or
anything for that matter) is powered up.

There was no mention of what partition manager was used, no version,
nothing, and from what I can see, there was no connection to the fault which
could be attributed to use of a partition manager.

I take it from this reply that you have no intention of trying out Easeus..
Oh well..
 

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