R
ranrad
But of course people get annoyed by John's posts. The truth hurts.
But of course people get annoyed by John's posts. The truth hurts.
A
Anne Carle
I think most of us can clearly understand why John would do his speech
periodically to keep the newsgroup the way it should be, BUT... OTOH,
it's an unmoderated newsgroup, and there are those who feel John is
trying/has always tried to moderate it! <GG>
Sigh...
Anne/OH
D
Doc
Yep, I'd hate to be his partner, he seems like a control freak.
B
Beans n' Toast
R
rest binned unread
[snipped]
Fair comments but I've also seen long standing posters on newsgroups
who begin to think that they 'own' it and can dictate to others or set
the rules about what can/can't be posted, as though they have some
sort of God-given right. They become self-appointed fascist net police
and they also play a part in driving other interested parties away.
IOW what you see on newsgroups is an exact reflection of society
- there are always those who want to pontificate to the rest of us
and when they go onto usenet, they do the same.
On this newsgroup I've read posts from: Al Klein, Ron May, »Q«
and several others who all show this tendency.
[cue: yards of abuse from said net police ;-)]
Fair comments but I've also seen long standing posters on newsgroups
who begin to think that they 'own' it and can dictate to others or set
the rules about what can/can't be posted, as though they have some
sort of God-given right. They become self-appointed fascist net police
and they also play a part in driving other interested parties away.
IOW what you see on newsgroups is an exact reflection of society
- there are always those who want to pontificate to the rest of us
and when they go onto usenet, they do the same.
On this newsgroup I've read posts from: Al Klein, Ron May, »Q«
and several others who all show this tendency.
[cue: yards of abuse from said net police ;-)]
R
Richard Steinfeld
I must take issue with this post. I experience a stiff rigidity in a few
of these categories. I feel that we've got to be a bit flexible because
life doesn't fit neatly into categories. Or, to quote Our Fearless King:
"You're either with us or against us." Frightening words, indeed, from
the leader of a democracy, and not suited for a group such as this.
Please define what this means.
If the donation is voluntary and my work isn't interrupted with a
request, to me, it's freeware. Is the brilliant Irfan View donationware
or freeware? The dude asks for donations because someone's got to pay
for his damn hosting! Is it fair to demand that he foot this bill for
the benefit of the rest of us in addition to all the slaving away to
debug the code? The request is primarily on his web site; there's no
interruption of my work flow. Cut the guy some slack.
Again, if the coder requests, but doesn't demand, nag, etc. for a
postcard -- what's the problem?
software, you know. It's stuff that you use in order to create other
stuff: software. Software are tools; fonts are tools.
How about free on-line virus scans? I think that this falls within the
intent of this group. Intent matters, too. They're sometimes on-line
variants of downloaded freeware. Sometimes your computer is so messed up
that you can't run normally -- and this method will save one's ass --
and one day, John, that ass will be yours.
it's a special case.
interrupts, or has a time limit is out-of-bounds for this group: agreed.
But since I was around almost at the very beginning of shareware, I'll
categorize Bob Wallace's stunning PC-Write as freeware. Granted that it
was shareware, but the payment was voluntary and the download was 100%
complete, fully-functional, no nags or interruptions, and included all
the documentation. When you paid, you got the documentation as a printed
book. Was this freeware or wasn't it? It was, in fact, voluntary
donationware: free software.
Wrong! ("You're With Us Or You're Against Us")
....
In general, I agree with this philosophy, and insideous advertising
degrades my life. I hate what I'm forced to endure it in supermarkets --
except that my solution is to shop elsewhere. I don't have to buy at
Albertson's: I let them know that trying to manipulate me with in-store
audio costs them dearly -- over $100,000 in my case. I just go to nice
quiet Costco and other places.
But this is not what this group is about (omygoddd!!!! I'm OT!!!! Shoot
the bastid!!!).
I think that some of these software examples are over-the-top.
A long time ago, I was coordinating audio support services for the
largest community college in the USA. I was waiting for a
commercial-grade high-speed cassette duplicator to arrive when I
discovered that the manufacturer had been bankrupted by its parent firm.
The purchase order would never be fulfilled. I needed the money freed
up so that I could buy a different machine from the next-lowest bidder.
But the City Purchaser said, "Sure, fine: just get a letter from them
stating that they're out-of-business." I had to go round-and-round with
the gentleman, until he got that the supplier's office was padlocked:
there was nobody on their payroll to write such a letter.
In the case of "orphanware" or "abandonware," there's often no
verification that it's really public domain. The web site, for example,
just vanishes. Unfortunately, and ultimately, it's seat-of-the-pants
time, isn't it? I think that we can make good guesses about this.
The best Personal Information Manager I've ever seen is the venerable
ECCO Pro -- the last version was for Windows 95. People download it
freely from the Netmanage web site, although they need to know the URL
beforehand. Netmanage hasn't said one way or the other. But it's there
for the taking, and we're all blessed that it is.
The world is only black or white to some people who can get us into a
whole lot of deep trouble. Real deep trouble.
John: LIGHTEN UP!!!
Richard
of these categories. I feel that we've got to be a bit flexible because
life doesn't fit neatly into categories. Or, to quote Our Fearless King:
"You're either with us or against us." Frightening words, indeed, from
the leader of a democracy, and not suited for a group such as this.
John said:
Please define what this means.
If the donation is voluntary and my work isn't interrupted with a
request, to me, it's freeware. Is the brilliant Irfan View donationware
or freeware? The dude asks for donations because someone's got to pay
for his damn hosting! Is it fair to demand that he foot this bill for
the benefit of the rest of us in addition to all the slaving away to
debug the code? The request is primarily on his web site; there's no
interruption of my work flow. Cut the guy some slack.
Again, if the coder requests, but doesn't demand, nag, etc. for a
postcard -- what's the problem?
To me, fonts almost fall into the category of drivers -- it's really
software, you know. It's stuff that you use in order to create other
stuff: software. Software are tools; fonts are tools.
How about free on-line virus scans? I think that this falls within the
intent of this group. Intent matters, too. They're sometimes on-line
variants of downloaded freeware. Sometimes your computer is so messed up
that you can't run normally -- and this method will save one's ass --
and one day, John, that ass will be yours.
I have a long reply for this one; I'll try to condense it below since
it's a special case.
Here again, it's your apples to my oranges. Shareware that demands,
interrupts, or has a time limit is out-of-bounds for this group: agreed.
But since I was around almost at the very beginning of shareware, I'll
categorize Bob Wallace's stunning PC-Write as freeware. Granted that it
was shareware, but the payment was voluntary and the download was 100%
complete, fully-functional, no nags or interruptions, and included all
the documentation. When you paid, you got the documentation as a printed
book. Was this freeware or wasn't it? It was, in fact, voluntary
donationware: free software.
Wrong! ("You're With Us Or You're Against Us")
....
In general, I agree with this philosophy, and insideous advertising
degrades my life. I hate what I'm forced to endure it in supermarkets --
except that my solution is to shop elsewhere. I don't have to buy at
Albertson's: I let them know that trying to manipulate me with in-store
audio costs them dearly -- over $100,000 in my case. I just go to nice
quiet Costco and other places.
But this is not what this group is about (omygoddd!!!! I'm OT!!!! Shoot
the bastid!!!).
I think that some of these software examples are over-the-top.
is when he/she drops support of the software.
A long time ago, I was coordinating audio support services for the
largest community college in the USA. I was waiting for a
commercial-grade high-speed cassette duplicator to arrive when I
discovered that the manufacturer had been bankrupted by its parent firm.
The purchase order would never be fulfilled. I needed the money freed
up so that I could buy a different machine from the next-lowest bidder.
But the City Purchaser said, "Sure, fine: just get a letter from them
stating that they're out-of-business." I had to go round-and-round with
the gentleman, until he got that the supplier's office was padlocked:
there was nobody on their payroll to write such a letter.
In the case of "orphanware" or "abandonware," there's often no
verification that it's really public domain. The web site, for example,
just vanishes. Unfortunately, and ultimately, it's seat-of-the-pants
time, isn't it? I think that we can make good guesses about this.
The best Personal Information Manager I've ever seen is the venerable
ECCO Pro -- the last version was for Windows 95. People download it
freely from the Netmanage web site, although they need to know the URL
beforehand. Netmanage hasn't said one way or the other. But it's there
for the taking, and we're all blessed that it is.
The world is only black or white to some people who can get us into a
whole lot of deep trouble. Real deep trouble.
John: LIGHTEN UP!!!
Richard
S
Susan Bugher
Richard said:
It was not! You have a legal obligation to pay for shareware. FYI - you
also are not supposed to drive off in someone else's car even if they
left the keys in the ignition and the motor running.
If you can't verify the Freeware status it's not Freeware. Read the EULA
or use the Wayback Machine or. . .
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/WareGlossary.php
<q>
Abandonware: software that the original owner no longer offers to the
public. Abandonware refers to a product that is no longer marketed or
distributed by the author/company that published it. Orphanware is used
when the author cannot be located or the company is no longer in
existence. Copyright laws apply to Orphanware and Abandonware. The
programs are freeware only if they were released as freeware (or given
freeware status by the owner at a later date).
</q>
Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
R
Richard Steinfeld
Susan said:It was not! You have a legal obligation to pay for shareware. FYI - you
also are not supposed to drive off in someone else's car even if they
left the keys in the ignition and the motor running.
Agreed. I believe that PC-Write pre-dated EULAs. It was an honor system
-- how do you classify this? However, there was the ethical expectation
that the user would pay if he/she approved and wanted to use it after
trying it.
Good points; thanks for the clarity.
Richard
C
Caesar Romano
Good point, as well as the rest of the points your raise.
F
Franklin
[snip]
John, I agree with a lot of what you say. Although you do seem to
picyure a more hostile and awful world filled with mal-intent than
I do.
I would say that I consider postcardware and donationware is
freeware as there is no obligation at all to send the postcard or
a donation other than a polite request from the author.
Betaware is going to present problem as there seems to be a trend
where more & more apps never ever seem to come out of beta. It's
almost a defense mechanism against complaints or maybe lawsuits!
As for freeware needing to be executable and so, you state, text
files and fonts are not freeware is bordering on the pedantic.
There is no loss and none of that doomsday stuff you colorfully
paint if we choose to embrace fonts and text files in this
newsgroup.
And of course Liteware is freeware. Who is to say what a fully
featured program should contain. If the paidware version did not
exist and the Lite version was all that existed then the Lite
version would be the fully featured version. IYSWIM.
F
Franklin
Uh oh. That is a little bit odd.
You seem to have a need for an unusually high degree of control on
what is happening in the group.
F
Franklin
Lies hurt too.
F
Franklin
Now that I re-read this, I am not quite sure I actually SAID
anythingHowever, that won't prevent me from posting it.
Hey! That sounds like it describes most of the postings I make.
Heh!
F
Franklin
The danger of trying to be a Netcop is that some people just like
to upset Netcops and will dare the Netcop to actually do anything
to stop them.
Of course, for the Netcop to retain his standing he then has to go
off and try and get the other person banned from his ISP or some
such sanction.
The whole thing can escalate into an unpleasant and nothing much
gets achieved by the end of it all. Meanwhile the regulars get to
observe lengthy exchanges which add background noise to the sound
of the group's normal postings.
F
Franklin
Windows XP is clearly most definitely not freeware by almost any
definition one likes.
Unless we make an exception for "It-came-pre-installed-ware".
F
Franklin
Hmmm, all those requests here for PC Mag's utilities might be another
category to consider.
B
Bill Day
Since John is not responding, I will say this: John has said clearly
that he KNOWS he cannot 'control' an unmoderated group. He simply
believes, (as I do), that the name of the group ought to mean
something and be respected. Posting a reminder of the stated topic now
& then is hardly 'control'.
I personally have been reading this group for about 7 years,
because I LIKE freeware alternatives to M$ and other programs, and I
hate opening an interesting looking thread and maybe downloading a
program, only to discover it is 30 day 'trialware' or severely
crippled...etc.
I have theories about why some people refuse to keep their
discussions narrowly limited to true freeware, but speculation leads
to serious flame wars, and I have no wish to see more of that.
G
Guest
Richard Steinfeld said:
Did he actually say that? My recollection is that he said, "You're either
with us, or with the terrorists."
Norm
R
Richard Steinfeld
Unfortunately, I heard the words with my own ears.
I think that the implication was the same, though: "My way or the highway."
Richard
R
Richard Steinfeld
Franklin wrote:
....
We can twirl on this one, I think.
The program that leapt to my mind was Sygate Personal Firewall, which is
protecting me right now. It's a "lite" version of the paid product. But,
dig it: how "lite" is "light?"
In this case, the functionality of the free version is very high and
very effective. The only semi-major hobbling of it is that the number of
_custom_ rules is limited to 20. Routinely-categorized rules seem to be
unlimited. An example of these routine rules is like, 'Mozilla
Thunderbird: block, allow, ask.' Most users will never approach the
20-rule limit. I finally hit the wall on it. There are a few other minor
irritations, nothing very significant for routine home use. The worst of
these is something that we commonly see in many programs:
dumbly-designed windows that cut off vital information we need in order
to see what's going on. But, hey: I see stupid interfaces in payware all
the time.
All this to say that I'm reinforcing your point.
Richard
....
We can twirl on this one, I think.
The program that leapt to my mind was Sygate Personal Firewall, which is
protecting me right now. It's a "lite" version of the paid product. But,
dig it: how "lite" is "light?"
In this case, the functionality of the free version is very high and
very effective. The only semi-major hobbling of it is that the number of
_custom_ rules is limited to 20. Routinely-categorized rules seem to be
unlimited. An example of these routine rules is like, 'Mozilla
Thunderbird: block, allow, ask.' Most users will never approach the
20-rule limit. I finally hit the wall on it. There are a few other minor
irritations, nothing very significant for routine home use. The worst of
these is something that we commonly see in many programs:
dumbly-designed windows that cut off vital information we need in order
to see what's going on. But, hey: I see stupid interfaces in payware all
the time.
All this to say that I'm reinforcing your point.
Richard