Registry cleaners

[HeyBub]

Aww, and you were doing so good, too. I suppose your strategy of
defamation and libel are better?


That's assuming they are never accessed, which isn't true. Just to GET
to the entry it's necessary to search an index and even if the entry
wasn't accessed, the time WAS spent.
What you mean is, it's very fast and seldom shows up as any speed
changes.

The registry doesn't HAVE an index. Searching a minimal registry and one
that has entries for Office, Photoshop, and AutoCAD take exactly the same
amount of time, and even that is less than ten milliseconds. The ONLY thing
a bloated registry will slow down is a system backup where you have to
backup two megabytes instead of one and a half.

That's not true as in the right circumstance they can do a LOT to
"improve" the operatio nof a machine. You're myopically assuming the
only thing a cleaner does is remove unused entries.

Often asserted but never proven.

And, you have not tried to find such a test either; ever, or you would
have it. Likewise, I have never seen a repeatable test that WOULD
demonstrate that any damage of any kind can be caused by a full
featured, reputable registry cleaner.

Well, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence for the latter. A couple of times
a month someone comes here to report his otherwise-perfect machine no longer
works after he "cleaned the registry." Limiting the discussion to "full
featured, reputable registry cleaners" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If any
given cleaner hoses a system, your out will be: "It wasn't reputable."

That's exactly like saying someone died because he didn't pray hard enough.

 

[Twayne]

Obviously you have absolutely no idea whatsoever on how applications
use the registry. The registry is not "searched", applications make
requests for specific keys and values, they don't search an index to
get those keys. Unused registry entries or dead keys are not
accessed or ever even looked at, the only time these dead entries
would matter is if the registry was extensively search by registry
tools. The registry is a hierarchical database, application have no
need to search through the registry, and they don't!

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms724875(VS.85).aspx
Registry Functions (Windows)

John

Think about the overall process: From initial call to successful read.

 

[Twayne]

When you discover or use something new then the burden is up to *you*
to prove that it works.If you think that your registry cleaner

lol, Registry cleaning is NEW?? Where the hell have you been?

improves the speed of your PC and if you want the rest of the world
to accept your claim then you must publish a set of reproducible test
results.

I have done that already. Twice. Your score on the other hand is 0.

I also offered to participate in a testing of agreed upon registry
cleaners and to produce a running tally of the results over time to an
agreed upon set of works. But not a single one of you or your closed
minded humpers had so much as a single response, let alone any
suggestions on setting up to do a verifiable, statistical test. None of
your small group were anywhere to be seen. THAT one told me an awful
lot about your circle. Like the typical bullies you want to be, you all
stayed out of school that day to avoid reality.
It would have been an ideal time to set up situations to
prove/disprove whether damage resulted or not, let alone ever causing an
unbootable state. I never said so before, but it also caused me to add
"lazy" to your repertoire of being abilities-challenged.

Consider the opposite: I might claim that my PC works faster

under the full moon. You challenge my ridiculous claim and I tell you
to disprove me. You obviously can't, and according to your way of
thinking my claim should stand as it is. There is only one way out of
the dilemman: I publish my test methods and my results and I ask you
to repeat them. I have yet to see such a test for any registry
cleaner.

That's because you ran away from it. You had a perfect opportunity.

Wow, you're losing it, kiddo! LOL, You're concentrating on "speed" as
opposed to the overall picture, as you usually do. You need to do some
rereads.

In the same way I can't and I won't prove that some reputable registry
cleaner can't do damage. When a large number of people use this
cleaner without any detrimental effect then you can reasonably expect
that it is safe to use but you won't know for sure. We sometimes hear
about the effects of registry cleaners in this newsgroup when
someone's machine gets thrashed.

And many more times you hear just the opposite. One hears the allegation
and opinion of one person, and we all know no one ever
misreads/misinterprets/misguesses anything, right? Yeah, right.

For everything that happens, there is a mechanism that explains it. If
you had more than a biased opinion and less than a closed mind you would
have the data to explain it. For "every" registry cleaner to be capable
of "damage" on its own, there is going to be a finite mechanism in
place. But you know the whole thing is a lie and have yourself so
backed into a corner that you feel saying anything but your boilerplate
would be so crushing you might pass from this rock, IMO.

In summary: Since nobody has published a repeatable performance test

Holy cow! Hundreds, thousands, millions of people prove it every day.
You must live in a cave!

on registry cleaners and since there are published instances of
registry cleaners doing damage,

Anything can be "published"; it's even been published that Windows will
destroy itself in less than a year. Not only published, but
demonstrated, and in much less than a year. You think somethign
"published" in your un, huh crap areas is credible, but it's only as
credible as the authors are; there are no details or solid evidence
there or anywhere else.

the reasonable course of action is

not to use them. Unless you believe in them and accept that it's a
matter of faith.

By that line of reasoning, then no Microsoft application should ever be
installed on a PC because it's going to destrouy itself, and it'll do so
faster and more repeatably than will a good registry cleaner.

Your'e full of "can'ts"; how about a "can" once in awhile?

Thanks again,

Twayne`

 

[Twayne]

First off, there is no such thing as a 'good cleaner'. And, you
finally made a truthful errorless statement----'aren't likely to help
in any noticeable way'.
Hooray for you!

I have never said anything but that. But I can't help your reading
comprehension.

 

[John John - MVP]

Think about the overall process: From initial call to successful read.

You really don't get it, do you? Lets make it simple, maybe you will
understand...

Applications don't go searching for keys and values, they ask to read or
write to *specific* keys or values or to verify their presence. Let's
pretend that MyApp wants to read one of its registry values, lets say it
wants a key in the HKLM subtree:

It doesn't matter if there is a dud in the HKU subtree, MyApp needs
information from the HKLM subtree, the other ones aren't looked at.

Lets say that MyApp wants a subkey in HKLM\Software:

It doesn't matter if there is a dud in the HKLM\System key, MyApp needs
information from the HKLM\Software key, the other ones aren't looked at.

Lets say that MyApp wants a subkey in HKLM\Software\MyApp:

It doesn't matter if there is a dud in the HKLM\Software\SomeOtherApp
subkey, MyApp needs information from the HKLM\Software\MyApp subkey, the
other ones aren't looked at.

Lets say that MyApp wants a value in HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey2:

It doesn't matter if there is a dud in the HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey1,
MyApp needs information from the HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey2, the other
ones aren't looked at.

Finally, lets say that MyApp wants the value information at:
HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey2\Value2:

It doesn't matter if HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey2\Value1 is a dud, MyApp
needs information from the HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey2\Value2, the other
ones aren't looked at.

Do you get it? It makes not a hill of beans if there are obsolete
registry keys or values in the registry because nothing needs them and
nothing looks for them and due to the hierarchical nature of the
registry nothing but useless registry cleaners ever looks at these
stupid obsolete keys or values!

In other words, if I specifically ask you to "Go get me a Widget at Acme
Widgets in the city's East side" does it matter if the Widgco Wingnut
factory in the West side burned down last week? Will you really be lost
enough to go looking for Acme Widgets in the city's West side?

John

 

[Bill in Co.]

You really don't get it, do you? Lets make it simple, maybe you will
understand...

Applications don't go searching for keys and values, they ask to read or
write to *specific* keys or values or to verify their presence. Let's
pretend that MyApp wants to read one of its registry values, lets say it
wants a key in the HKLM subtree:

It doesn't matter if there is a dud in the HKU subtree, MyApp needs
information from the HKLM subtree, the other ones aren't looked at.

Lets say that MyApp wants a subkey in HKLM\Software:

It doesn't matter if there is a dud in the HKLM\System key, MyApp needs
information from the HKLM\Software key, the other ones aren't looked at.

Lets say that MyApp wants a subkey in HKLM\Software\MyApp:

It doesn't matter if there is a dud in the HKLM\Software\SomeOtherApp
subkey, MyApp needs information from the HKLM\Software\MyApp subkey, the
other ones aren't looked at.

Lets say that MyApp wants a value in HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey2:

It doesn't matter if there is a dud in the HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey1,
MyApp needs information from the HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey2, the other
ones aren't looked at.

Finally, lets say that MyApp wants the value information at:
HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey2\Value2:

It doesn't matter if HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey2\Value1 is a dud, MyApp
needs information from the HKLM\Software\MyApp\Subkey2\Value2, the other
ones aren't looked at.

Do you get it? It makes not a hill of beans if there are obsolete
registry keys or values in the registry because nothing needs them and
nothing looks for them and due to the hierarchical nature of the
registry nothing but useless registry cleaners ever looks at these
stupid obsolete keys or values!

In other words, if I specifically ask you to "Go get me a Widget at Acme
Widgets in the city's East side" does it matter if the Widgco Wingnut
factory in the West side burned down last week? Will you really be lost
enough to go looking for Acme Widgets in the city's West side?

John

Look John, he doesn't get it, and has no intention of ever getting it
(assuming he were even capable of getting it - which he clearly isn't).
And besides which, last I heard, he's still working on his AA degree, so you
should probably just let it die here on the vine.

 

[Bruce Chambers]

Hello !

I have used RegCleaner for a long time; I have read about newer registry
cleaners, like CCleaner or RegSeeker, and I am asking if I must turn to these
SW.
But, I am asking also: do I *really* need a registry cleaner ?

No, No, a thousand times, NO!

Why would you even think you'd ever need to clean your registry?
What specific *problems* are you actually experiencing (not some
program's bogus listing of imaginary problems) that you think can be
fixed by using a registry "cleaner?"

If you do have a problem that is rooted in the registry, it would
be far better to simply edit (after backing up, of course) only the
specific key(s) and/or value(s) that are causing the problem. After
all, why use a chainsaw when a scalpel will do the job? Additionally,
the manually changing of one or two registry entries is far less likely
to have the dire consequences of allowing an automated product to make
multiple changes simultaneously. The only thing needed to safely clean
your registry is knowledge and Regedit.exe.

The registry contains all of the operating system's "knowledge" of
the computer's hardware devices, installed software, the location of the
device drivers, and the computer's configuration. A misstep in the
registry can have severe consequences. One should not even turning
loose a poorly understood automated "cleaner," unless he is fully
confident that he knows *exactly* what is going to happen as a result of
each and every change.

Having repeatedly seen the results of inexperienced people using
automated registry "cleaners," I can only advise all but the most
experienced computer technicians (and/or hobbyists) to avoid them all.
Experience has shown me that such tools simply are not safe in the hands
of the inexperienced user. If you lack the knowledge and experience to
maintain your registry by yourself, then you also lack the knowledge and
experience to safely configure and use any automated registry cleaner,
no matter how safe they claim to be.

More importantly, no one has ever demonstrated that the use of an
automated registry "cleaner," particularly by an untrained,
inexperienced computer user, does any real good, whatsoever. There's
certainly been no empirical evidence offered to demonstrate that the use
of such products to "clean" WinXP's registry improves a computer's
performance or stability. Given the potential for harm, it's just not
worth the risk.

Granted, most registry "cleaners" won't cause problems each and
every time they're used, but the potential for harm is always there.
And, since no registry "cleaner" has ever been demonstrated to do any
good (think of them like treating the flu with chicken soup - there's no
real medicinal value, but it sometimes provides a warming placebo
effect), I always tell people that the risks far out-weigh the
non-existent benefits.

I will concede that a good registry *scanning* tool, in the hands
of an experienced and knowledgeable technician or hobbyist can be a
useful time-saving diagnostic tool, as long as it's not allowed to make
any changes automatically. But I really don't think that there are any
registry "cleaners" that are truly safe for the general public to use.
Experience has proven just the opposite: such tools simply are not safe
in the hands of the inexperienced user.

A little further reading on the subject:

Why I don't use registry cleaners
http://www.edbott.com/weblog/?p=643

AumHa Forums • View topic - AUMHA Discussion: Should I Use a Registry
Cleaner?
http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099





--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:


http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot

 

[Bill in Co.]

No, No, a thousand times, NO!

Why would you even think you'd ever need to clean your registry?
What specific *problems* are you actually experiencing (not some
program's bogus listing of imaginary problems) that you think can be
fixed by using a registry "cleaner?"

If you do have a problem that is rooted in the registry, it would
be far better to simply edit (after backing up, of course) only the
specific key(s) and/or value(s) that are causing the problem. After
all, why use a chainsaw when a scalpel will do the job? Additionally,
the manually changing of one or two registry entries is far less likely
to have the dire consequences of allowing an automated product to make
multiple changes simultaneously. The only thing needed to safely clean
your registry is knowledge and Regedit.exe.

The registry contains all of the operating system's "knowledge" of
the computer's hardware devices, installed software, the location of the
device drivers, and the computer's configuration. A misstep in the
registry can have severe consequences. One should not even turning
loose a poorly understood automated "cleaner," unless he is fully
confident that he knows *exactly* what is going to happen as a result of
each and every change.

Having repeatedly seen the results of inexperienced people using
automated registry "cleaners," I can only advise all but the most
experienced computer technicians (and/or hobbyists) to avoid them all.
Experience has shown me that such tools simply are not safe in the hands
of the inexperienced user. If you lack the knowledge and experience to
maintain your registry by yourself, then you also lack the knowledge and
experience to safely configure and use any automated registry cleaner,
no matter how safe they claim to be.

More importantly, no one has ever demonstrated that the use of an
automated registry "cleaner," particularly by an untrained,
inexperienced computer user, does any real good, whatsoever. There's
certainly been no empirical evidence offered to demonstrate that the use
of such products to "clean" WinXP's registry improves a computer's
performance or stability.

Say whaaaat??? Well then, you musta missed all of Twain's "documented
results" that he "published"! (snort

!! ROFLMAO !!
(sorry, couldn't resist)

Given the potential for harm, it's just not worth the risk.

EXACTLY. Well said, and a word to the wise is sufficient.

 

[Pegasus [MVP]]

<snip>
Definition of a fanatic: A man redoubling his efforts after losing sight of
his aim.

 

[Keith Wilby]

I've used registry cleaners on all 4 of my family's PCs many times and I
have *never* noticed an improvement in their performance or reliability in
any way. From what I've read in this thread I won't be using them any more.

 

[Franz Leu]

Hello !

I have used RegCleaner for a long time; I have read about newer registry
cleaners, like CCleaner or RegSeeker, and I am asking if I must turn to these
SW.
But, I am asking also: do I *really* need a registry cleaner ?
I seldom do install/uninstall, except som updates of SW that I already have.
If I leave in the registry some old entries, what will be the result ?
My ideas about registry cleaners are a little confused, so can someone help ?

Thanks in advance, Enrico

Just a side-note to think about:
If cleaning up the registry is useless, as many of you said in this
thread, why did Microsoft release the RegClean utility at times of win98
- to speed-up(!) the PC ???


Excerpt from a MS support webpage:
<snip>
My Windows 98 Registry is working OK, but the associated files have
grown massively and there are loads of redundant entries in there.

The longer you run a PC without a clean reinstall, the more your
Registry files grow. This is just a fact of Windows and over time it can
cause your PC to slowdown. While Windows is good at adding and tracking
changes in your Registry, tasks such as uninstalling software do not
always cause the Registry entries to be removed. There’s a utility for
Windows 98 called RegClean that can help you get rid of all these
erroneous entries and speed up your PC in the process. You can download
it from http://download.com.com/3000-2094-881470.html.
<snip>

Franz

 

[Daave]

Not so fast.

Although I almost always agree with the content of that statement, I do
grant there are occasional exceptions to that rule when a skilled user
is involved, especially one who regularly backs up their system (by
cloning or imaging their drive). To wit, Alias stated that he has had
success using System Suite 5 with regard to enabling a particular video
game to play that otherwise wouldn't. I would like to know more about
the specifics. What game was it? What was the particular problem. And
how did System Suite 5 solve the problem? (And in retrospect, was there
an even better solution?)

If an ordinary user runs an automated "cleaner," that can certainly be a
recipe for disaster. We've all seen numerous posts to this newsgroup
that involved just that. However, when a skilled user uses a particular
program to scan for particular issues for one particular program and
images or clones the drive prior to altering specific registry keys
(either by using regedit or by a program such as System Suite 5), I
think that is a useful method to solve specific problems.

 

[Alias]

Not so fast.

Although I almost always agree with the content of that statement, I do
grant there are occasional exceptions to that rule when a skilled user
is involved, especially one who regularly backs up their system (by
cloning or imaging their drive). To wit, Alias stated that he has had
success using System Suite 5 with regard to enabling a particular video
game to play that otherwise wouldn't. I would like to know more about
the specifics. What game was it? What was the particular problem. And
how did System Suite 5 solve the problem? (And in retrospect, was there
an even better solution?)

Devil May Cry 3. System Suite reconnected registry entries with the .exe
and the game worked. I did go through the hundreds of recommendations
from System Suite and ONLY chose the one related to Devil May Cry to
change. Normally, I leave the registry alone and that particular
computer boots up in less than 37 seconds running XP Home.

Alias

 

[John John - MVP]

Just a side-note to think about:
If cleaning up the registry is useless, as many of you said in this
thread, why did Microsoft release the RegClean utility at times of win98
- to speed-up(!) the PC ???

Nice try, but that ("to speed-up the PC") isn't the reason at all why
RegClean was developed. RegClean was first released with Microsoft
Visual Basic and its real purpose was to help applications developer
cleanup their programs registry entries while they were writing and
testing their applications, this had nothing *whatsoever* to do with
speeding up the computer, it was a programming tool, nothing more. It
is other third party individuals who started making speed claims and who
started suggesting that RegClean should be used for that dubious purpose.

Excerpt from a MS support webpage:
<snip>
My Windows 98 Registry is working OK, but the associated files have
grown massively and there are loads of redundant entries in there.

You left this important part out of the excerpt:

"The articles set out below are articles created and/or produced by
Future Publishing Limited. Microsoft is not responsible for the content,
accuracy or opinions expressed in these articles."

You also seem to forget that Windows 98 and Windows NT operating systems
are completely different, the desktop and GUI may look similar but under
the hood these operating systems are as different as a Fiat and a
Lamborghini... or, at the risk of offending die hard Windows 98 fans,
you are trying to compare a Lada with a Formula 1 race car!

Finally, you should also tell us why Microsoft decided to pull the
RegClean utility and remove it from all its download locations.

John

 

[Daave]

Devil May Cry 3. System Suite reconnected registry entries with the
.exe and the game worked. I did go through the hundreds of
recommendations from System Suite and ONLY chose the one related to
Devil May Cry to change. Normally, I leave the registry alone and
that particular computer boots up in less than 37 seconds running XP
Home.
Alias

Interesting.

What was wrong with Devil May Cry 3 in the first place? How do you
suppose the registry entries came to be "disconnected"?

 

[Alias]

Interesting.

What was wrong with Devil May Cry 3 in the first place?

It wouldn't start.

How do you
suppose the registry entries came to be "disconnected"?

I have no idea. Both Devil May Cry 3 and 4 are awesome games, btw.

Alias

 

[Franz Leu]

Nice try, but that ("to speed-up the PC") isn't the reason at all why
RegClean was developed. RegClean was first released with Microsoft
Visual Basic and its real purpose was to help applications developer
cleanup their programs registry entries while they were writing and
testing their applications, this had nothing *whatsoever* to do with
speeding up the computer, it was a programming tool, nothing more. It
is other third party individuals who started making speed claims and who
started suggesting that RegClean should be used for that dubious purpose.



You left this important part out of the excerpt:

"The articles set out below are articles created and/or produced by
Future Publishing Limited. Microsoft is not responsible for the content,
accuracy or opinions expressed in these articles."

You also seem to forget that Windows 98 and Windows NT operating systems
are completely different, the desktop and GUI may look similar but under
the hood these operating systems are as different as a Fiat and a
Lamborghini... or, at the risk of offending die hard Windows 98 fans,
you are trying to compare a Lada with a Formula 1 race car!

Finally, you should also tell us why Microsoft decided to pull the
RegClean utility and remove it from all its download locations.

Thats an easy one ... it has never been developed further to support
newer OS. Using it on todays OS and Software (i.e. MS Office installed)
setups is even very dangerous.

Franz

 

[John John - MVP]

Thats an easy one ... it has never been developed further to support
newer OS. Using it on todays OS and Software (i.e. MS Office installed)
setups is even very dangerous.

It was pulled many years ago (during the ME days), it was causing
problems even on the DOS based operating systems, it wasn't necessarily
a problem with the newer Windows XP.

John

 

[Terry R.]

The date and time was Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:31:24 AM , and on a
whim, Daave pounded out on the keyboard:

Not so fast.

Although I almost always agree with the content of that statement, I do
grant there are occasional exceptions to that rule when a skilled user
is involved, especially one who regularly backs up their system (by
cloning or imaging their drive). To wit, Alias stated that he has had
success using System Suite 5 with regard to enabling a particular video
game to play that otherwise wouldn't. I would like to know more about
the specifics. What game was it? What was the particular problem. And
how did System Suite 5 solve the problem? (And in retrospect, was there
an even better solution?)

If an ordinary user runs an automated "cleaner," that can certainly be a
recipe for disaster. We've all seen numerous posts to this newsgroup
that involved just that. However, when a skilled user uses a particular
program to scan for particular issues for one particular program and
images or clones the drive prior to altering specific registry keys
(either by using regedit or by a program such as System Suite 5), I
think that is a useful method to solve specific problems.

I agree. I have used them for years to resolve issues that would take
way too much time using regedit. Back before a lot of AV companies
started producing tools for removal, cleaners and a watchful eye were
the only way to eradicate the problem.

But I will never throw out the suggestion to use one to anyone that may
be a novice.

Terry R.

 

[Terry R.]

The date and time was Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:36:16 AM , and on a
whim, Keith Wilby pounded out on the keyboard:

I've used registry cleaners on all 4 of my family's PCs many times and I
have *never* noticed an improvement in their performance or reliability in
any way. From what I've read in this thread I won't be using them any more.

Hi Keith,

Why anyone would attempt to try one when a workstation is working fine,
I'll never know. Maybe curiosity. And that's where most users wind up
getting in trouble.


Terry R.