Registry Cleaners Affecting the Ability to Boot

[Daave]

I am in the same camp as most regulars here who wouldn't advise someone
to use a registry cleaner in order to boost a PC's overall
performance/speed. No one has ever been able to provide solid evidence
to back up such a claim.

That being said, whenever I caution people not to use these programs, I
normally add that sometimes these cleaners have been known to cause a
situation where the PC becomes unbootable. I seem to remember reading a
number of posts in these XP newsgroups from people who have reported
this behavior.

But now I wonder. (Memories often are not reliable!) I do value
evidence. But I Googled for instances where this sort of behavior
happens and I couldn't find anything convincing! The closest I could
find was this post:

http://forums.comodo.com/comodo-sys...stem-being-unable-to-boot-t38353.0.html;wap2=

And newsgroup archives? Just a few hits, _total_:

http://groups.google.com/groups/sea...ner"&btnG=Search&sitesearch=groups.google.com

(arguably I could have opened up the search, but 5 results?!)

Then again, Google is nowhere near as good as it once was when it comes
to searching archived Usenet posts. But was I imagining posts mentioning
these occurences?

I still won't be recommending these programs since, again, there is no
evidence they are beneficial. I would imagine if someone is overzealous,
real damage could occur (just like with regedit). But if someone could
point me to some posts where someone actually did have the behavior
described (i.e., not able to boot after running a registry "cleaner" or
"optimizer"), I would appreciate it. Otherwise, I will have to stop
making that claim. (However, until someone provides *real* evidence that
these cleaners boost performance, I will continue to make the claim that
the evidence for *that* does not exist.) Evidence is evidence, and I
feel that my advice is more valuable if it is not tainted by unfounded
opinion.

 

[ANONYMOUS]

But if someone could
point me to some posts where someone actually did have the behavior
described (i.e., not able to boot after running a registry "cleaner" or
"optimizer"), I would appreciate it.

The only people who did have the behavior you describe are MVPs (Most
Valuable Pigs) and in particular Pig-Bear and Bruce Hagan-Pig. Apart
from that I too have not come across any experienced user having had any
problems. the MVPs only justification fr reporting this matter is
because they have read an article written way back in the 90s when these
programs were at an infancy and M$ was still producing good products!

I too don't use registry cleaners but my machines are wiped clean by
formatting once every 15 to 18 months or when a new service is issued if
earlier. CCleaner is the only one I use because I don't regard it as
registry cleaner and I use it for it uninstaller utility.

hth

 

[Peter Foldes]

Daave

Here is a couple that were posted in the last few days alone.
_______________________________________________________

Hey guys!

Im new to this forum but i hope it goes well (sorry for my poor English).

I have a problem after running a registry cleaner program who removed
registry files i needed to start up my pc properly...

Now my windows starts and all but i cant use the mice or the keyboard and
its very few programs witch starts. I've tried to run the pc in safe mode and
normal but none of them work properly and i have tried to run the system
recovery from the windows dvd.
But the windows dvd can't find my vista 64 bit.

This is my computer:
Q6600 @ 2.40GHz 2x GeForce 8800GT Sli Harddisks: 763 GB Memory: 4094 MB OS:
Windows Vista™ Home Premium 64 bit

I hope you can understand my problem (if not just ask) and i would be realy
happy if you could help me.

Best regards,
Memon / Niklas
______________________________________________________________________

Help!

I was working with the registry file and managed to disable my computer. I
searched this site and all related posts I found point to KB 307545. Problem
is I have an OEM operating system installed and the KB warns against
restoring hive files in this case. Moreover, my copy of XP is on a DVD and I
am not sure I can boot to this drive anyway.

Prior to editing the registry I saved a copy to another folder. My question
is is there any way to get to this backup version of the registry and restore
it without using hive files? Would booting to DOS allow for this? I
understand sysinternals has an NTFS add-on for DOS. Otherwise, could I
somehow use the recovery console to restore the registry from the saved copy
(assuming I can start the console from the XP DVD)?

Thanks in advance,

Harris
__________________________________________________________________

 

[SC Tom]

I am in the same camp as most regulars here who wouldn't advise
someone to use a registry cleaner in order to boost a PC's overall
performance/speed. No one has ever been able to provide solid evidence
to back up such a claim.

That being said, whenever I caution people not to use these programs,
I normally add that sometimes these cleaners have been known to cause
a situation where the PC becomes unbootable. I seem to remember
reading a number of posts in these XP newsgroups from people who have
reported this behavior.

But now I wonder. (Memories often are not reliable!) I do value
evidence. But I Googled for instances where this sort of behavior
happens and I couldn't find anything convincing! The closest I could
find was this post:

http://forums.comodo.com/comodo-sys...stem-being-unable-to-boot-t38353.0.html;wap2=

And newsgroup archives? Just a few hits, _total_:

http://groups.google.com/groups/sea...ner"&btnG=Search&sitesearch=groups.google.com

(arguably I could have opened up the search, but 5 results?!)

Then again, Google is nowhere near as good as it once was when it
comes to searching archived Usenet posts. But was I imagining posts
mentioning these occurences?

I still won't be recommending these programs since, again, there is no
evidence they are beneficial. I would imagine if someone is
overzealous, real damage could occur (just like with regedit). But if
someone could point me to some posts where someone actually did have
the behavior described (i.e., not able to boot after running a
registry "cleaner" or "optimizer"), I would appreciate it. Otherwise,
I will have to stop making that claim. (However, until someone
provides *real* evidence that these cleaners boost performance, I
will continue to make the claim that the evidence for *that* does not
exist.) Evidence is evidence, and I feel that my advice is more
valuable if it is not tainted by unfounded opinion.

I have never been unable to boot after using CCleaner, but I have had
problems with networked programs when I used it a couple of times on my work
computer. There were a couple that had to be reinstalled locally in order to
work again.
I have only had one problem at home with it, and that was on my Win7
notebook. It "broke" my installation of Logitech SetPoint for my Bluetooth
mouse. Keep in mind that I didn't go through each key to see what was being
removed, so I can't blame the program as much as blaming myself. All I had
to do to fix it was restore the keys from the backup that CC creates. Didn't
even need to reboot.
Even though I've never had an unbootable machine, I can honestly say that
I've never seen any verifiable speed or reliability performance either.
Do they do any good? Not that I can see.
Do they do any harm? Yes, in certain instances, and could probably do more
if the user doesn't know or pay attention to what he's doing.

 

[The Real Truth MVP]

Registry cleaners are only as bad as the people who use them. If you don't
know what you are doing then don't use them. I regularly use CCleaner and I
recommend it. For those who say it does not speed up the computer I say you
don't have enough experience to make that statement. I personally have
noticed a speed increase in some systems. The registry hives are files just
like temp files but are accessed constantly way more then your temp files.
Cleaning it out needs to be done less then the temp files but there is very
much a benefit from doing it especially when you need to do it to fix
malware and spyware related issues.


--
The Real Truth http://pcbutts1-therealtruth.blogspot.com/
*WARNING* Do NOT follow any advice given by the people listed below.
They do NOT have the expertise or knowledge to fix your issue. Do not waste
your time.
David H Lipman, Malke, PA Bear, Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Leythos.

 

[SC Tom]

Daave

Here is a couple that were posted in the last few days alone.
_______________________________________________________

Hey guys!

Im new to this forum but i hope it goes well (sorry for my poor
English).
I have a problem after running a registry cleaner program who removed
registry files i needed to start up my pc properly...

Now my windows starts and all but i cant use the mice or the keyboard
and its very few programs witch starts. I've tried to run the pc in
safe mode and normal but none of them work properly and i have tried
to run the system recovery from the windows dvd.
But the windows dvd can't find my vista 64 bit.

This is my computer:
Q6600 @ 2.40GHz 2x GeForce 8800GT Sli Harddisks: 763 GB Memory: 4094
MB OS: Windows Vista™ Home Premium 64 bit

I hope you can understand my problem (if not just ask) and i would be
realy happy if you could help me.

Best regards,
Memon / Niklas
______________________________________________________________________

Help!

I was working with the registry file and managed to disable my
computer. I searched this site and all related posts I found point
to KB 307545. Problem is I have an OEM operating system installed
and the KB warns against restoring hive files in this case. Moreover, my
copy of XP is on a DVD and I am not sure I can boot to
this drive anyway.
Prior to editing the registry I saved a copy to another folder. My
question is is there any way to get to this backup version of the
registry and restore it without using hive files? Would booting to
DOS allow for this? I understand sysinternals has an NTFS add-on for
DOS. Otherwise, could I somehow use the recovery console to restore
the registry from the saved copy (assuming I can start the console
from the XP DVD)?
Thanks in advance,

Harris
__________________________________________________________________
--
Peter

Please Reply to Newsgroup for the benefit of others
Requests for assistance by email can not and will not be acknowledged.

In the first instance, the PC is still bootable, albeit crippled somewhat,
which means it can probably be repaired without wiping the drive and
starting over.
In the second instance, it sounds more like *he's* the registry cleaner ("I
was working with the registry file. . ."), not some program. My guess is he
went through with regedit and started deleting keys on his own without
realizing he was shooting himself in the foot.
Not quite what Daave was asking

 

[Bill in Co.]

I am in the same camp as most regulars here who wouldn't advise someone
to use a registry cleaner in order to boost a PC's overall
performance/speed. No one has ever been able to provide solid evidence
to back up such a claim.

Say WHAT???? You mean you didn't see Twaynee's "solid evidence"?
ROFLMAO!! I needed a laugh today, so thanks for the opportunity.

 

[thanatoid]

I am in the same camp as most regulars here who wouldn't
advise someone to use a registry cleaner in order to boost
a PC's overall performance/speed. No one has ever been able
to provide solid evidence to back up such a claim.

<SNIP>

******Thank you SO MUCH for starting this discussion
again.******

Since a lot of you trust magazines, here's a link to a PC World
magazine examining 4 "utility sutes" all of which INCLUDE
REGISTRY CLEANERS.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/113743/the_troublefree_pc.html

For those too lazy to look for the section, here is what the
article says abot RC's:

"Registry cleaners:

Garbage lurking in the Windows Registry is the worst kind of
junk on your hard drive. A program that you've uninstalled may
leave behind an unnecessary Registry key that can end up causing
havoc. If your computer isn't behaving the way it's supposed to-
-for example, a program keeps crashing or the CD-R drive
suddenly doesn't write--there's a good chance the problem is in
the Registry.

All four suites provide Registry scanners that find, report, and
fix potential problems. Just as important, all four of them are
able to undo their work, since you can't be absolutely sure that
a Registry change is for the better until you have tried it.

SystemSuite does the best job of guiding you through the
cleaning process, color-coding the problems it finds. You're not
likely to have difficulty instructing the program to correct the
green problems, while the yellow ones may require some thought.
However, you will have to consider each red problem carefully
before acting on it. SystemSuite explains why each item is on
the list. Norton SystemWorks offers even better explanations,
including the potential consequences of leaving the keys alone.
Neither program, though, explains what might happen if you
remove them. The WinDoctor component of SystemWorks adds a nice
touch: When you decide to restore a Registry key, WinDoctor
tells you why it was deleted in the first place."

I actually have the magazine, and there is 2x2" thingy on the
page which quotes from the article:

"An unnecessary Registry key... can end up causing *havoc*."

Now, I would NEVER use a "utility suite". Suites are for
amateurs. I get a specific app for the specific job. So I would
never use any of the 4 products mentioned, however I hope some
of what is said about the RC's will get through your thick
skulls.

And may I disrespectfully point out to those who keep on beating
the dead horse of "improved performance" that neither I nor most
of the other pro-RC posters (IIRC) have ever claimed ANY
performance increase - in fact I have repeatedly stated there is
ZERO performance increase.

I guess all of you have your heads so concerned with speed that
"performance increase" is the only criterion by which you
evaluate things. GFY (either meaning), I hope that 3.6 GHz
processor makes you type faster, and that the 2GB video card
with 300 fps lets you get a bigger hard-on when you kill the bad
guys and the shadows of dripping blood in the night fog are more
vivid.

OK?

Now can we PLEASE move on?

 

[HeyBub]

The only people who did have the behavior you describe are MVPs (Most
Valuable Pigs) and in particular Pig-Bear and Bruce Hagan-Pig. Apart
from that I too have not come across any experienced user having had
any problems. the MVPs only justification fr reporting this matter is
because they have read an article written way back in the 90s when
these programs were at an infancy and M$ was still producing good
products!
I too don't use registry cleaners but my machines are wiped clean by
formatting once every 15 to 18 months or when a new service is issued
if earlier. CCleaner is the only one I use because I don't regard it
as registry cleaner and I use it for it uninstaller utility.

Are you as certain about that as you were about the FORMAT command erasing
the drive?

 

[ANONYMOUS]

YES

What did you disagree with me about FORMAT command? Please use the same
message so that it can be clarified for you. Have you recently fixed your
system?

 

[Bill in Co.]

<SNIP>

******Thank you SO MUCH for starting this discussion
again.******

Since a lot of you trust magazines, here's a link to a PC World
magazine examining 4 "utility sutes" all of which INCLUDE
REGISTRY CLEANERS.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/113743/the_troublefree_pc.html

For those too lazy to look for the section, here is what the
article says abot RC's:

"Registry cleaners:

Garbage lurking in the Windows Registry is the worst kind of
junk on your hard drive. A program that you've uninstalled may
leave behind an unnecessary Registry key that can end up causing
havoc.

Real **havoc** for that case?
I've yet to see or read about that (and I mean in factual cites; not just
opinions). (Either that, or my memory is fading

If your computer isn't behaving the way it's supposed to-
-for example, a program keeps crashing or the CD-R drive
suddenly doesn't write--there's a good chance the problem is in
the Registry.

And an automated registry cleaner will often NOT find that particular
problem.

All four suites provide Registry scanners that find, report, and
fix potential problems. Just as important, all four of them are
able to undo their work, since you can't be absolutely sure that
a Registry change is for the better until you have tried it.

OR detrimentally, in so many cases.
Just read more of the posts in this newsgroup over a bit of TIME, and
witness it. (well, ok, some just close their eyes and ears, and never
see...)

I actually have the magazine, and there is 2x2" thingy on the
page which quotes from the article:

"An unnecessary Registry key... can end up causing *havoc*."

Real **havoc** for that specific case?
I've yet to see or read about that (and I mean in factual cites; not just
opinions).

And may I disrespectfully point out to those who keep on beating
the dead horse of "improved performance" that neither I nor most
of the other pro-RC posters (IIRC) have ever claimed ANY
performance increase - in fact I have repeatedly stated there is
ZERO performance increase.

Well no, you don't remember correctly.
But then again, you haven't been in this particular newsgroup very long, so
that may be understandable.

 

[John John - MVP]

I am in the same camp as most regulars here who wouldn't advise someone
to use a registry cleaner in order to boost a PC's overall
performance/speed. No one has ever been able to provide solid evidence
to back up such a claim.

That being said, whenever I caution people not to use these programs, I
normally add that sometimes these cleaners have been known to cause a
situation where the PC becomes unbootable. I seem to remember reading a
number of posts in these XP newsgroups from people who have reported
this behavior.

http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/topic110399.html

 

[PA Bear [MS MVP]]

http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/topic110399.html

http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099

 

[Milt]

Daave,

Just to add another comment on CCleaner. I too, was curious about it. So, I
installed CCleaner on an older laptop running Windows XP Home SP3 and most of
the applications that I use on my other machines. The computer connects to
the internet and my home network of 4 other machines through my wireless
router or by ethernet cable. So far it's been on this machine for about 5 1/2
months.

I run the CCleaner "Windows Cleaner" daily to dump temp's. It's faster than
doing it manually. And it does a good job.

I have also run the CCleaner "Registry Cleaner" 33 times so far in the 5 1/2
months. I inspected the reports before deleting registry entries the first
five or six times I ran it. But I never found any suggested deletions I
disagreed with, so now I just run it and automatically save a copy of the
deletions.

As of this time, the computer is running at least as well as it did before
using CCleaner. I can't say it's running better, but it's not having any
problems either. CCleaner is handy for deleting temp's. And it's handy for
searching for registry problems. I've installed it on my other 4 computers.
And I use it to keep my "System Restore" backups down to about 10 entries.

Milt

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

Just to add another comment on CCleaner. I too, was curious about it. So, I
installed CCleaner on an older laptop running Windows XP Home SP3 and most of
the applications that I use on my other machines. The computer connects to
the internet and my home network of 4 other machines through my wireless
router or by ethernet cable. So far it's been on this machine for about 5 1/2
months.

I run the CCleaner "Windows Cleaner" daily to dump temp's. It's faster than
doing it manually. And it does a good job.

I have also run the CCleaner "Registry Cleaner" 33 times so far in the 5 1/2
months. I inspected the reports before deleting registry entries the first
five or six times I ran it. But I never found any suggested deletions I
disagreed with, so now I just run it and automatically save a copy of the
deletions.

As of this time, the computer is running at least as well as it did before
using CCleaner. I can't say it's running better, but it's not having any
problems either. CCleaner is handy for deleting temp's. And it's handy for
searching for registry problems. I've installed it on my other 4 computers.
And I use it to keep my "System Restore" backups down to about 10 entries.

A few points about CCleaner and your experiences with it:

1. CCleaner is generally a good program to use as long as you don't
use its registry cleaning function.

2. Even its registry cleaning function is safer than that of most
other registry cleaners.

3. Despite its being safer than others, it is *not* risk-free.
Moreover since registry cleaning is unnecessary and does nothing
valuable for you, using it is a very bad bargain.

4. If you look at what the registry cleaner proposes to do and you are
a knowledgeable user, you can enormously decrease the risk of your
using it, and I'm glad to see that you apparently fall into that
category. However none of us is perfect at doing that, and some risk
still remains.

5. Nobody claims that the CCleaner registry cleaner (and almost all
other registry cleaners) will cause a problem every time you use it.
It has the *risk* of causing a problem. Most of the time most people
can get away with using it. Running the risk is unnecessary and
anybody who uses one and doesn't have a problem should consider
himself lucky.

 

[Daave]

http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/topic110399.html

That's interesting.

I don't have the newest version of Ccleaner. Then again, that Bleeping
Computer post was from September, 2007. I wonder if that user was not
using the registry sacnning/cleaning function of Cleaner. It sounds like
maybe he instead clicked on *Tools | Startup*, where you see a list of
startup programs similar to what you might see in msconfig. Then again,
it might have been the registry component after all since that is one
where boxes appear that can be checked or unchecked. At any rate,
presumably the current version of Cleaner does not present that
particular entry as an option to remove (since my version didn't).

Interestingly, the entry for C:\Windows\system32\userinit.exe doesn't
even show up in msconfig! I am only able to access this by regedit or
Autoruns. Speaking of Autoruns, this post was made by someone who had
cluelessly unchecked that very entry:

http://www.techsupportforum.com/mic...d-userinit-exe-i-mistakenly-deleted-file.html

I ran Cleaner's registry component, just to *scan* for "issues."
Userinit.exe didn't show up as an option. I imagine that the version
from 2007 presented this option in error and that current users of
Ccleaner wouldn't have this particular problem.

But there are many other registry "cleaning" programs out there. It
wouldn't surprise me if one or more of them allows an unsphisticated
user to alter entries that really need to be left alone.

Actually, Autoruns is probably a more dangerous program than most
above-board registry cleaners (like Ccleaner). When you run it and the
Everything tab appears up front, the second entry hapens to be
C:\Windows\system32\userinit.exe ! What I would like to know is why this
line does not appear grayed out. That is, I can see the value in
*listing* it, but would there *ever* be a situation where a
sophisiticated user would need to uncheck this entry?!

 

[Daave]

A few points about CCleaner and your experiences with it:

1. CCleaner is generally a good program to use as long as you don't
use its registry cleaning function.

2. Even its registry cleaning function is safer than that of most
other registry cleaners.

3. Despite its being safer than others, it is *not* risk-free.
Moreover since registry cleaning is unnecessary and does nothing
valuable for you, using it is a very bad bargain.

4. If you look at what the registry cleaner proposes to do and you are
a knowledgeable user, you can enormously decrease the risk of your
using it, and I'm glad to see that you apparently fall into that
category. However none of us is perfect at doing that, and some risk
still remains.

5. Nobody claims that the CCleaner registry cleaner (and almost all
other registry cleaners) will cause a problem every time you use it.
It has the *risk* of causing a problem. Most of the time most people
can get away with using it. Running the risk is unnecessary and
anybody who uses one and doesn't have a problem should consider
himself lucky.

I would like to add the following:

6. Any benefit that one sees from having used Ccleaner is most likely
due to the deletion of temp files, not the removal of registry entries.

 

[Daave]

http://aumha.net/viewtopic.php?t=28099

That is a useful page. However, it does not contain the evidence I am
looking for. I did see this claim by "kb":

"The onecare cleaner offers no chance to backup what is removed and
whatever it removes is gone, forever. Should it mistakenly remove a key
or value needed by your operating system or software it's gone along
with your program or operating system. I've seen onecare's registry
cleaner completely hose systems."

But that's anecdotal. (And it didn't mention anything about a system
becoming unbootable.) It's not that different from Twayne stating that
he has seen instances where registry cleaners increased performance on
clients' PCs. I am looking for evidence, specifically that one of these
programs has rendered a system unbootable. So far, John John has come
closest. I'm not sure if the post he linked to was the result of
Cleaner's registry cleaning component or its equivalent of msconfig, but
if it is the former, that is a perfect example.

I did notice this thread being referenced in the thread you linked to:

http://safetycenter.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!8A533CD69529D377!706.entry

I haven't looked at it yet, but I see that there were 44 complaints that
this Microsoft scan interfered with Office and Norton!

For the record, I think that the registry "cleaners" offer little to no
benefit to PC users along with some amount of risk. I just wanted to
know if my memory was correct when it comes to situations I remember
reading about (or *think* I remember!) where a system *has* become
unbootable.

Thanks for the link.

 

[db]

daave,

although I'm an advocate for
ccleaner and the one care by
microsoft;

sometimes there are other
issues that attribute to poor
performance of windows.

and most of the time people
presume that a registry cleaner
will solve the problem

but in fact it only makes things
work.

for example if the file system
is not in sync with the mft,

and if the mft is not reconciled/
synchronized with the file system
then files will seemingly be
not found, when in fact they are
on the disk (just not registered
in the mft)

the result will be that the entire
system will behave poorly,
especially with the system files.



therefore a check disk is required
to reconcile the file system.

but unfortunately, there are times
that if any files have been created
after the mft becomes corrupted,

then they will be lost once the mft
is back in shape.

----------------

on the other hand,
if a registry cleaner is executed
instead of a check disk,

then the registry hive, which are
also files of the file system, will
become worst / corrupted.

its just my take on the matter
but everyone else has their own.

----------------

one of my main concerns with
the one care cleaner is that it
does not perform a check disk
before it executes the helpful
utilities, ie, virus scan, defrag,
and registry check.

an infrequent check disk is very
helpful to maintain the integrity
of the file system and the master
file table (mft)

-----------------

it is my hope you get your pc
back in shape.

though we may spar on certain
issues I never wish the worst for
people who are trying to help.

--
db·´¯`·...¸><)))º>
DatabaseBen, Retired Professional
- Systems Analyst
- Database Developer
- Accountancy
- Veteran of the Armed Forces
- @Hotmail.com
- nntp Postologist
~ "share the nirvana" - dbZen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[thanatoid]

daave,

and most of the time people
presume that a registry cleaner
will solve the problem

but in fact it only makes things
work.

A "Gatesian" slip?

Yes, it DOES make things work better by cleaning out the crap. I
guess my post including a PCWorld review of 4 reg cleaner did
not appeal to you. Pity.

Well, this horse is stinking so bad I've put on a gas mask, so
carry on to your hearts' content...

<SNIP>