Radeon 8500 "Mac" TV-out

[Dave H]

I have a "Mac" Radeon 8500 that I think is really a flashed Windows
card. The ATI part number is 109 85700 00.
The ATI Displays control panel recognizes it as "Unknown ATI Graphics",
and the TV-out is always on when connected. I really want to be able to
switch it on and off as needed, so the VRAM won't be split all the time
between the monitor and TV. I have installed two different versions of
ATI Displays (not at the same time), and installed all Apple ATI
extensions, and tried ATI's Mac ROM updater/restore. No good, the card
is still "unknown" and TV-out is always active.
Anything else to try?
Thank you.

 

[Augustus]

I have a "Mac" Radeon 8500 that I think is really a flashed Windows
card. The ATI part number is 109 85700 00.
The ATI Displays control panel recognizes it as "Unknown ATI Graphics",
and the TV-out is always on when connected. I really want to be able to
switch it on and off as needed, so the VRAM won't be split all the time
between the monitor and TV. I have installed two different versions of
ATI Displays (not at the same time), and installed all Apple ATI
extensions, and tried ATI's Mac ROM updater/restore. No good, the card
is still "unknown" and TV-out is always active.

What you've got is a PC version 64Mb Radeon 8500LE that's been flashed to a
Mac version. What I would do is reflash with the Mac Bios. Properly modded
it should be fully functional.

 

[Dave H]

Thank you. I have tried a few different Mac flashing utilities with no
luck, including the ATI Mac retail version.
What flashing utility should I use?
Oh, for whatever it's worth, the seller is now claiming it's a prototype
Mac "Xserve" card that never shipped...

What you've got is a PC version 64Mb Radeon 8500LE that's been

flashed to a Mac version. What I would do is reflash with the Mac Bios.
Properly modded it should be fully functional.

 

[Augustus]

Thank you. I have tried a few different Mac flashing utilities with no
luck, including the ATI Mac retail version.
What flashing utility should I use?
Oh, for whatever it's worth, the seller is now claiming it's a prototype
Mac "Xserve" card that never shipped...

Try http://atimacunderground.freeservers.com/instructions.html.

 

[Augustus]

Try http://atimacunderground.freeservers.com/instructions.html.

It's also possible the card is flawed. You can test for this by flashing it
back to PC spec and running in a PC. Painful, but definitive in diagnosis.

 

[Dave H]

It's also possible the card is flawed. You can test for this by flashing it
back to PC spec and running in a PC. Painful, but definitive in diagnosis.

I'm afraid I don't have that kind of access to a PC with an AGP slot.
Is this flasher,
http://atimacunderground.freeservers.com/files/R128_136_Radeon_125_Flasher.sit
compatible with an 8500, or just the first-generation, 2001 Radeons?
Thank you.

 

[Augustus]

diagnosis.


I'm afraid I don't have that kind of access to a PC with an AGP slot.
Is this flasher,
http://atimacunderground.freeservers.com/files/R128_136_Radeon_125_Flasher.sit
compatible with an 8500, or just the first-generation, 2001 Radeons?
Thank you.

I'm not familiar with that particular flashing utility.

 

[Dave H]

Thank you for your help.
I have some new information about my card.
It can't be an LE version, as it was "built by ATI" and it has a DVI port.
http://www.atitech.ca/support/agpchart/output.html

The ROM version checks out as a genuine (but seemingly not downloadable)
Mac version.
http://www.ati.com/support/identify/100lookup.html

The only "issues" with it now are that Apple System Profiler says deep
sleep isn't supported, and DVD playback through TV-out doesn't work in
OS 9 (there is sound, but the screen is black).

 

[Augustus]

Thank you for your help.
I have some new information about my card.
It can't be an LE version, as it was "built by ATI" and it has a DVI port.
http://www.atitech.ca/support/agpchart/output.html

The ROM version checks out as a genuine (but seemingly not downloadable)
Mac version.

Did you pull that ROM info from a software readout of the video BIOS or
physically reading the number from the chip? I am aware that currently the
ATI site shows no built by ATI (BBA) Radeon 8500LE's with the DV out, but
the fact is that built by ATI 64Mb 8500LE's AGP with DV and VIVO do exist.
The actual ATI part number you gave is specifically for one of these cards.
I know this because I had one, it was a BBA OEM 64Mb 8500LE AGP DVI VIVO
bought from a wholesaler in Edmonton. I actually sold for $65 it to someone
who flashed it with the Mac BIOS to stick in his G4 because he didn't feel
like paying $250 for the factory Mac version. Said it worked fine, although
he did not use the VIVO component. There was also a another ATI card called
the 8500DV 64Mb AGP DVI VIVO which although not labeled an LE, actually had
the same 250Mhz core and even slower memory at 238Mhz. As far as I am aware,
this also carried the same part number. ATI simply used the same cards with
a Mac BIOS flashed into them for the retail Mac versions. Physically, the
Mac and PC Radeons are 100% identical. If your BIOS has an actual physical
Mac ID code, then your card is one of these. If not, it's a reflashed PC
version.

 

[Dave H]

Did you pull that ROM info from a software readout of the video BIOS or
physically reading the number from the chip? I am aware that currently the
ATI site shows no built by ATI (BBA) Radeon 8500LE's with the DV out, but
the fact is that built by ATI 64Mb 8500LE's AGP with DV and VIVO do exist.
The actual ATI part number you gave is specifically for one of these cards.
I know this because I had one, it was a BBA OEM 64Mb 8500LE AGP DVI VIVO
bought from a wholesaler in Edmonton. I actually sold for $65 it to someone
who flashed it with the Mac BIOS to stick in his G4 because he didn't feel
like paying $250 for the factory Mac version. Said it worked fine, although
he did not use the VIVO component. There was also a another ATI card called
the 8500DV 64Mb AGP DVI VIVO which although not labeled an LE, actually had
the same 250Mhz core and even slower memory at 238Mhz. As far as I am aware,
this also carried the same part number. ATI simply used the same cards with
a Mac BIOS flashed into them for the retail Mac versions. Physically, the
Mac and PC Radeons are 100% identical. If your BIOS has an actual physical
Mac ID code, then your card is one of these. If not, it's a reflashed PC
version.

The ROM number, 113-85711-103, and "Card#: 109-85700-00", are pulled
from a software readout (Apple System Profiler).
The number that starts with 109 is also silkscreened on the card.
If it helps, I checked the part number on its RAM chips. They are rated
3.6ns (Hynix).
I haven't removed the card's fan to check the number on the graphics
chip yet. Is there anything "special" about removing/reinstalling the
its fan (is it glued down, are there small, easily lost parts to watch
out for, etc)?
What is "DV and Vivo"?
This card has a VGA-out, an s-video-out, and a DVI-out port.
Thank you.

 

[Dave H]

Did you pull that ROM info from a software readout of the video BIOS or
physically reading the number from the chip? I am aware that currently the
ATI site shows no built by ATI (BBA) Radeon 8500LE's with the DV out, but
the fact is that built by ATI 64Mb 8500LE's AGP with DV and VIVO do exist.
The actual ATI part number you gave is specifically for one of these cards.
I know this because I had one, it was a BBA OEM 64Mb 8500LE AGP DVI VIVO
bought from a wholesaler in Edmonton. I actually sold for $65 it to someone
who flashed it with the Mac BIOS to stick in his G4 because he didn't feel
like paying $250 for the factory Mac version. Said it worked fine, although
he did not use the VIVO component. There was also a another ATI card called
the 8500DV 64Mb AGP DVI VIVO which although not labeled an LE, actually had
the same 250Mhz core and even slower memory at 238Mhz. As far as I am aware,
this also carried the same part number. ATI simply used the same cards with
a Mac BIOS flashed into them for the retail Mac versions. Physically, the
Mac and PC Radeons are 100% identical. If your BIOS has an actual physical
Mac ID code, then your card is one of these. If not, it's a reflashed PC
version.

The ROM number (113-85711-103) and "Card#: 109-85700-00", are pulled
from a software readout (Apple System Profiler).
The number that starts with 109 is also silkscreened onto the card.
Where would the BIOS chip be? I couldn't find it.
If it helps, I looked up the part number on its RAM chips, and they are
rated 3.6ns (Hynix brand).
I am not sure if mine is a "VIVO", as it doesn't have any inputs.
It has 3 ports, VGA, s-video-out (tested, it's definitely an output),
and DVI.
Thank you.

 

[Dave H]

I have found out from the author of a software patch for Mac Radeon
cards that the ROM name on my card is the same one used in Mac Xserve
Radeon 8500s. Since this ROM version isn't downloadable, it's more than
likely a real Mac card.
I have mixed and matched drivers for it in OS 9 and it's working well.
The only remaining issue is that I can't use TV-out for DVD playback in
OS 9 (OS X playback works though). There doesn't seem to be a Rage
Theater chip on the card, maybe that's the problem.

 

[Brian W]

This has been a very interesting thread because of the availability of
"flashed' versions of the ATI 8500 series card for use on the Mac and
the confusion caused by the many variations of ATI cards.

However, I am not sure of the differences, if any, between the card
you purchased (bearing ATI part number 109 85700 00.) and the
"first-generation, 2001 Radeons " mentioned in one of the replies? Is
your card a "Radeon" card? What exactly does Radeon mean? Does anyone
know what features / drawbacks apply to the 2001 card when compared to
other Mac 8500 Radeon cards? Also, is the ATI part number actually
silkscreened white lettering onto the board, or is the part number
printed under the soldermask, i.e. looking like part of the printed
circuit?

You mentioned Apple System Profiler said the card was incompatible
with the Mac's deep sleep mode. Did this turn out to be the case?
Did you overcome the problem with a software patch of any kind?

Also, did you manage to fix the TV-out always being 'on' ? If so, how
was that achieved?

Finally, can you list any software patches (and any firmware updates)
you have installed to get the card to work to your satisfaction in
OSX.

Matt

 

[Dave H]

I'm not sure how to answer some of your questions.
Here's what I can say:
The 2001 Radeons (Radeon 7000 and Radeon Mac Edition, a.k.a. 7200) are
an older, less powerful design than the 8500.
The card's part number is white lettering that's directly on the card.
"Deep sleep" still doesn't work, but there is a also a PCI card
installed that doesn't support it either.
The available firmware updates won't run on it (maybe because they have
a lower version number than what's on the card?).
I "fixed" the TV-out always being on (when connected) by using an
s-video extension cable to let me easily unplug the TV connection when
not needed. It turns out that it's actually normal, at least for the Mac
version, to have the VRAM divided in half when a second screen is
connected.I had thought it was a problem because in my old Mac (with a
1st generation, retail PCI Radeon Mac Edition) the full VRAM showed as
being available on both screens.
The drivers for OS X 10.2.8 from ATI's website work for both OEM and
retail cards for basic functions. There is a freeware patch called
Radeon Enabler that makes the ATI Displays control panel recognize the
card and allows the OpenGL overrides to work. It's available from
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/23472
Also, for what it's worth, a shareware utility shows my card as having
an R200 GPU, 250MHz GPU speed, and 275MHz RAM speed. I got it from
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/24119
It edits code in "flashers" to allow for overclocking, but it can also
be used to identify and provide basic info about the card (just quit it
without navigating to any firmware flashers).

 

[Brian W]

Thanks for another very useful post on this issue.

Matt (Brian W)