Ping: Anna -- Removable HDs for Backup

  • Thread starter Thread starter David
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Ken Blake said:
...my personal prefernce is no removable racks at all,
but USB drive enclosures...
[......]
My recommendation would be that the main drive is
opermanently installed and you have a single removable rack,
with two removable drives for backup you swap in and out of
it (or better, as I said, no removable racks, but two backup
drives in USB enclosures).


The major drawback (currently) with USB drives is that
you can't boot a system from a USB-connected hard drive.
(I read that one of the BIOS requirements for Vista is that
the BIOS must boot using USB.) To use a USB hard drive
for a clone for use in case of primary HD failure, you'd have
to take the USB HD out of its enclosure first, and then put
it either into a tray for an installed "mobile rack", or put it
inside the PC case. With a tray-mounted HD, you just
slide out the failed HD and slip in the clone HD and just
restart.

But external enclosures are getting more attractive with
the advent of eSATA cables. There are back panel adapters
which allow eSATA cables to be connected, and there are
starting to appear external HD enclosures that also have
eSATA jacks so that SATA HDs can be external to the
PC and still meet specs. That would have the portability
of USB, but the speed and bootability of SATA.

*TimDaniels*
 
vernon said:
Right. Good luck with any variation on a Dell, especially from Dell.


Dell is smart not to install removable hard drive racks because
such racks violate the ATA specifications for cabling by introducing
an extra connector interface and a short length of 40-wire ribbon
cable (between the tray and the HD). If Dell were to install such
removable HD racks, it would be opening itself up to law suits by
corporations who had problems and blamed them on "non-spec"
installations. Since there is much variability and no published
standards for removable HD systems, Dell would have to test and
certify systems itself from its supplying manufacturer, adding expense
for a low-demand product.

*TimDaniels*
 
No, that's not correct. That's one of the beauties of using removable HDs.
Certainly you can switch one HD in its removable tray to the other mobile
rack. Let me cite one example...

1. Say your day-to-day working HD is in mobile rack #1 - presumably the
Primary Master if you're using PATA drives. Your cloned HD resides in its
removable tray in mobile rack #2.
2. Your HD #1 goes kaput or for whatever reason you want to use HD #2 as a
substitute.
3. Just remove HD #1 from its mobile rack and slip HD #2 in mobile rack #1
in its place. The operation will take all of 10 seconds or so.

And there are other reasons why you may want to swap HDs. The removable hard
drive arrangement gives you this flexibility.
Anna
Anna,
I think we're still OK. Just my inability to correctly express myself. I
got rather rattled last night when lighting hit only a couple of blocks
away and had to close off without further thinking.

I agree with your three points above.

What I meant was when an HD is installed into a tray (caddy), I am assuming
that it should stay in that tray (caddy).

More precisely: Suppose my system has two RHD racks installed in the
tower. And suppose I have five identical new HDDs sitting on my desk. But
further suppose that I have only three trays (caddies). I can then attach
the three trays to three HDDs, and employ them as you have described above.
One of them as my primary and two of them as, say, successive clones. But
now, later, I decide that I want to utilize one of my two remaining new
HDDs. That is when my question comes to bear.

I am assuming that it is not a good idea, because of additional wear and
tear on the connectors, to be swapping HDDs and trays (caddies). (Note
that the word 'racks' is not involved in the question.)

Real apologies if I've sounded too pedantic, but I wanted to be sure there
was no misunderstanding. I think a lot of my problem is that I've never
even seen one of these racks or trays -- when I do, probably a lot of these
conceptual issues will evaporate. (I hope <g>).

Thanks again for all your thoughts -- and patience!
David
 
Dell is smart not to install removable hard drive racks because
such racks violate the ATA specifications for cabling by introducing
an extra connector interface and a short length of 40-wire ribbon
cable (between the tray and the HD). If Dell were to install such
removable HD racks, it would be opening itself up to law suits by
corporations who had problems and blamed them on "non-spec"
installations. Since there is much variability and no published
standards for removable HD systems, Dell would have to test and
certify systems itself from its supplying manufacturer, adding expense
for a low-demand product.

*TimDaniels*

Hi Tim,
Your point is well made and well taken. I only wish that Dell had been as
straightforward and stated something like this, rather than running me
around in circles for *literally* three weeks...
Regards,
David
 
Anna said:
Ken:
I know from your postings that you're an experienced and obviously
competant PC user.


Thanks for the kind words.

I wish I could convince you of the vast
superiority of equipping one's desktop PC with removable HDs as
compared with using USB or Firewire external hard drives and/or fixed
internal HDs.


Anna, I didn't write what I did to start up a argument about this. I just
wanted to be sure that David realized he had a choice of more than one kind
of removable hard drives to use--the rack kind you prefer, and the USB (or
firewire) kind I do. We obviosuly disagree here, and I don't think either of
us will convince the other.

I use fixed drives for the main ones and USB drives for backup.

Perhaps when you build your next machine or have one built you'll consider
giving it a try. I can assure you you won't be disappointed.


They are easy enough to add to existing machine. If I wanted to do it, I
wouldn't have to wait for my next one. As a matter of fact, as I thought I
had mentioned before, I had them on my previous machine. I wasn't
disappointed, but I prefer the USB backup drives I use now.
 
David said:
Anna,
I think we're still OK. Just my inability to correctly express myself. I
got rather rattled last night when lighting hit only a couple of blocks
away and had to close off without further thinking.

I agree with your three points above.

What I meant was when an HD is installed into a tray (caddy), I am
assuming
that it should stay in that tray (caddy).

More precisely: Suppose my system has two RHD racks installed in the
tower. And suppose I have five identical new HDDs sitting on my desk.
But
further suppose that I have only three trays (caddies). I can then attach
the three trays to three HDDs, and employ them as you have described
above.
One of them as my primary and two of them as, say, successive clones. But
now, later, I decide that I want to utilize one of my two remaining new
HDDs. That is when my question comes to bear.

I am assuming that it is not a good idea, because of additional wear and
tear on the connectors, to be swapping HDDs and trays (caddies). (Note
that the word 'racks' is not involved in the question.)

Real apologies if I've sounded too pedantic, but I wanted to be sure there
was no misunderstanding. I think a lot of my problem is that I've never
even seen one of these racks or trays -- when I do, probably a lot of
these
conceptual issues will evaporate. (I hope <g>).

Thanks again for all your thoughts -- and patience!
David


David:
Your questions are quite reasonable. You needn't apologize for them. I can
fully understand the trepidation you may have re a hardware configuration
that you've had no experience with. And as you say, once you actually see
these mobile racks (I hadn't realized you've never seen one "in the flesh")
and more importantly, worked with them, I'm certain whatever fears you have
in this regard will evaporate nearly immediately.

Now as to your specific question...

There's no problem whatsoever with swapping out HDs from their removable
trays and inserting different drives. Having been in the business for many
years, we do this all the time especially since we experiment with different
makes & models of mobile racks as well as for general HD testing purposes.
We probably have done more of the kind of swapping you envision in three
months than most PC users would do in a lifetime. Maybe a slight
exaggeration, but you get the point. The mobile racks and their removable
trays generally hold up quite well.

So have no fear in doing so. And one of the neat features of installing a HD
in its removable tray is the ease of doing so. One simply plops in the drive
and, in the case of PATA drives) connects the internal data & power cables.
A truly simple non-demanding operation. And in the case of SATA HDs
(remember - the mobile rack must be specifically designed for that type of
HD) it's even simpler since there's usually a direct connection between the
drive and the tray's internal data/power connectors. Removing the HD from
the tray is, of course, just as simple.

We ordinarily jumper our PATA HDs Cable Select so that in the event we might
later want to change its IDE connectors, e.g., from Primary Slave to
Secondary Master, we need not have to access the drive in order to change
jumper positions since in the case of CS the IDE cable position (end or
middle) will automatically determine Master/Slave positions. Naturally,
using SATA HDs, that's not even necessary.
Anna
 
David said:
I've never even seen one of these racks or trays...


Here's some images of the kind of Kingwin "mobile rack"
that I use:
http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&CateID=25&ID=136 .

I am assuming that it is not a good idea, because of additional wear and
tear on the connectors, to be swapping HDDs and trays (caddies)...

Extra trays are offered by various retailers for prices ranging between
$13 and $24. Here is a tray for the "mobile rack" that I use selling for
$17:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...u=K450-8022 I&SRCCODE=WEBNEXCA&CMP=EMC-NEXTAG
At these prices, you can usually afford a tray for each HD.

*TimDaniels*
 
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