PC takes 40 attempts to start ????

[Andrew]

Please, can anyone tell me what might be going on here ??

A few months back, on the start-up process (just after the desktop comes
on, but while the PC is still "thinking") i heard sometimes 4 or 5
clicks from the PC (especially when the red light was on, i.e. it's
thinking). Sometimes it didn't click at all. But after a minute or so
everything was fine. Never thought much of it. Even after installing a
new Hard Drive it still did it (i was beginning to think it was the HD,
but now i don't think it can be).

Anyway, lately i have been having problems switching the PC on after it
has been off for a few hours. Sometimes it comes on fine, but more often
than not it doesn't and sounds for a split second as if it was booting
up but then would switch itself back off (only a second after pressing
the power button to start). I used to have to press the power button 5
or 6 times, but it would eventually start okay. Once it's on the PC is
fine, no problems at all.

Well things have gotten worse. I was on about 15 minutes yesterday
getting it to switch on. It would switch on for about a second then
switch off and the monitor would say "no signal" at that point. i had to
try this about 40 times before it came on, but it eventually did come on
and everything works fine (once it's on !). I thought maybe it was a one
off, but i have just tried to switch it on and again it took about 30
times to power up.

I removed all the USB devices from it (thinking it was a power surge
issue), but that didn't fix it. I tried taking the mains plug out of the
back of the PC for 10 minutes incase it was static, again that didn't
work. I removed the RAM chips and IDE cable then put them back in, still
same problem !!. When i booted up with no Hard Drive connected it did,
however let me go into the BIOS (i couldn't get into the BIOS with the
HD connected). But i don't think the HD is to blame as it does the same
with another (good) Hard Drive !!- weird !!

I don't mind having to press the power button 5 or 6 times to get it on,
like i used to have to do, but 40 times is a problem !

Can anyone suggest anything i could try to see if i can get rid of this
really annoying problem ??

The Motherboard is about a year and a half old, Athlon XP2200+, 1.81GHz,
720RAM, WinXP Pro (SP1 as some things don't work with SP2 !!).

Oh, one point to note (although i don't think it's related to this
specific problem), is that on boot up (when i do eventually get the
thing to boot up !), it says something to the effect "Cannot locate
Boot.ini, loading from C:\Windows boot.ini" - or words to that effect
(don't quote me, it may be "system.ini", or "boot.ini", but it's a .ini
file !). I don't think these issues are related though as these power
ups have been happening for longer than the .ini issue)

Other system info here is pasted in from Word:
OS Name Microsoft Windows XP Professional

Version 5.1.2600 Service Pack 1 Build 2600
OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation
System Name MAXTOR80
System Manufacturer KT266_
System Model AWRDACPI
System Type X86-based PC
Processor x86 Family 6 Model 8 Stepping 1 AuthenticAMD ~1807 Mhz
BIOS Version/Date Award Software International, Inc. 6.00 PG,
22/11/2002
SMBIOS Version 2.3
Windows Directory C:\windows
System Directory C:\windows\System32
Boot Device \Device\HarddiskVolume1
Locale United States
Hardware Abstraction Layer Version = "5.1.2600.1106
(xpsp1.020828-1920)"
User Name MAXTOR80\Andrew
Time Zone GMT Daylight Time
Total Physical Memory 512.00 MB
Available Physical Memory 320.47 MB
Total Virtual Memory 2.58 GB
Available Virtual Memory 1.68 GB
Page File Space 1.83 GB
Page File C:\pagefile.sys


Please Help !!!!!

Kind Regards,
Andrew

 

[Kerry Brown]

I can think of a couple of possibilities.

1) Check the motherboard for bad capacitors. This is a classic symptom.

http://cquirke.mvps.org/badcaps.htm

2) If the capacitors check out OK try a different power supply.

 

[Andrew]

Kerry Brown:

I can think of a couple of possibilities.

1) Check the motherboard for bad capacitors. This is a classic symptom.

http://cquirke.mvps.org/badcaps.htm

2) If the capacitors check out OK try a different power supply.

Oh no !! - when i think about it, about a year ago my power supply
started making weird noises, so i bought a new one. The guy in the shop
where i got it from said were there any "popped" capacitors on the
motherboard. i said i hadn't a clue and bought the power supply and had
a look when i was installing it. I could see one or 2 which looked like
what he had described, but he said that it should still be okay.

He said the cause of these bad capacitors could be a failing power
supply and that i might have just caught it in the nick of time.
Obviously i had caught it just in time, but they must be failing more
and more.

Just a couple of questions then:
1) Might the board last a good while longer, and i just have to live
with pressing the power button 30 or so times (best scenario) ??
2) Is it cheaper in the long run to just buy a new base unit ?. My unit
is 5 years old now and has had a new motherboard / HD / soundcard /
graphics card etc (i think the case is the only original thing on it
!!), but i do eventually want a more powerful unit (my monitor is okay
!).
3) Is there a (cheap !) way of fixing the capacitors (if it is that) ??
4) Why is there only ever a problem on power-up ?. i.e. the computer
never crashes or has any issues whilst on ?

Kind Regards,
Andrew

 

[Andrew]

Andrew:

Kerry Brown:

Oh no !! - when i think about it, about a year ago my power supply
started making weird noises, so i bought a new one. The guy in the shop
where i got it from said were there any "popped" capacitors on the
motherboard. i said i hadn't a clue and bought the power supply and had
a look when i was installing it. I could see one or 2 which looked like
what he had described, but he said that it should still be okay.

He said the cause of these bad capacitors could be a failing power
supply and that i might have just caught it in the nick of time.
Obviously i had caught it just in time, but they must be failing more
and more.

Just a couple of questions then:
1) Might the board last a good while longer, and i just have to live
with pressing the power button 30 or so times (best scenario) ??
2) Is it cheaper in the long run to just buy a new base unit ?. My unit
is 5 years old now and has had a new motherboard / HD / soundcard /
graphics card etc (i think the case is the only original thing on it
!!), but i do eventually want a more powerful unit (my monitor is okay
!).
3) Is there a (cheap !) way of fixing the capacitors (if it is that) ??
4) Why is there only ever a problem on power-up ?. i.e. the computer
never crashes or has any issues whilst on ?

Kind Regards,
Andrew

Also, sorry i forgot to ask this, is it okay just keeping the PC in
hibernate state (or log off) instead of shutting down ?. It works when i
do a restart, it just won't work on a complete shut-down then restart in
a few hours ??

 

[DatabaseBen]

checking bad capacitors and resistors and transistors might take a bit
of knowledge... don't u tink...!

 

[DatabaseBen]

Could be a bad switch....

(Takes a lot of pushing in to eventually catch the power to turn on. Then
on occasion the power turns off likely due to the switch not staying on....)
Incidentally, if it is the 2 dollar switch, then one can wonder how much
strain was placed on your motherboard and harddrive by the intermittent
powerups n downs....

 

[Kerry Brown]

checking bad capacitors and resistors and transistors might take
a bit of knowledge... don't u tink...!

The bad capacitor problem has affected many brands of motherboards. It can
almost always be diagnosed visually. Take a look at the link I posted.
Here's another one with more pictures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

I would say one in five computers I work on that are around 1 1/2 to 3 years
old and experiencing intermittant lock ups and start up problems have bad
capacitors. It is often misdiagnosed as bad ram.

 

[Andrew]

Kerry Brown:

The bad capacitor problem has affected many brands of motherboards. It can
almost always be diagnosed visually. Take a look at the link I posted.

Here's another one with more pictures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

I would say one in five computers I work on that are around 1 1/2 to 3 years
old and experiencing intermittant lock ups and start up problems have bad
capacitors. It is often misdiagnosed as bad ram.

So i take it it's not going to get any better ?, but might it hold out
for a while longer ??. I was already thinking of getting a new base
unit, but i might just wait until this one pops its clogs !!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Kerry Brown]

Kerry Brown:

Oh no !! - when i think about it, about a year ago my power supply
started making weird noises, so i bought a new one. The guy in the
shop where i got it from said were there any "popped" capacitors on
the motherboard. i said i hadn't a clue and bought the power supply
and had a look when i was installing it. I could see one or 2 which
looked like what he had described, but he said that it should still
be okay.

He said the cause of these bad capacitors could be a failing power
supply and that i might have just caught it in the nick of time.
Obviously i had caught it just in time, but they must be failing more
and more.

Just a couple of questions then:
1) Might the board last a good while longer, and i just have to live
with pressing the power button 30 or so times (best scenario) ??
2) Is it cheaper in the long run to just buy a new base unit ?. My
unit is 5 years old now and has had a new motherboard / HD /
soundcard / graphics card etc (i think the case is the only original
thing on it !!), but i do eventually want a more powerful unit (my
monitor is okay !).
3) Is there a (cheap !) way of fixing the capacitors (if it is that)
?? 4) Why is there only ever a problem on power-up ?. i.e. the
computer never crashes or has any issues whilst on ?

Kind Regards,
Andrew

1) The board may quit at any time if the problem is bad capacitors. You may
also get data corruption. I have also seen the CPU get damaged if the
problem is not fixed.

2) Hard to say. Only you can make that decision.

3) Unless you are very experienced with soldering and have the proper
equipment the only fix is a new motherboard. I have the experience and the
equipment and I don't try to replace the capacitors. There is too much
possibility of causing even more problems.

4) The problem shows different symptoms depending on the motherboard and
what capacitors are bad. Your symptoms are quite common. It is likely that
the new PSU you installed was better quality than the old one. The
capacitors that commonly go are used to filter out noise from the PSU.
Sometimes installing a better PSU will mask the problem for a while. It is
not the PSU causing the problem. It is an industry wide problem that some
people put down to botched industrial espionage and poor quality control.
Others blame the higher frequencies used in computers and capacitor design
that hasn't changed much from the 1950's. I have seen the problem on
motherboards, in power supplies and on video cards. If you have visual signs
of bulged or leaking capacitors it is waste of time troubleshooting other
possibilities until this is fixed.

 

[Andrew]

Kerry Brown:

1) The board may quit at any time if the problem is bad capacitors. You may
also get data corruption. I have also seen the CPU get damaged if the

problem is not fixed.

2) Hard to say. Only you can make that decision.

3) Unless you are very experienced with soldering and have the proper

equipment the only fix is a new motherboard. I have the experience and the
equipment and I don't try to replace the capacitors. There is too much

possibility of causing even more problems.

4) The problem shows different symptoms depending on the motherboard and
what capacitors are bad. Your symptoms are quite common. It is likely that
the new PSU you installed was better quality than the old one. The
capacitors that commonly go are used to filter out noise from the PSU.

Sometimes installing a better PSU will mask the problem for a while. It is
not the PSU causing the problem. It is an industry wide problem that some
people put down to botched industrial espionage and poor quality control.
Others blame the higher frequencies used in computers and capacitor design
that hasn't changed much from the 1950's. I have seen the problem on
motherboards, in power supplies and on video cards. If you have visual signs
of bulged or leaking capacitors it is waste of time troubleshooting other
possibilities until this is fixed.

Many Thanks Kerry for the valuable advice there. I'm going to just put
it into hibernate or log-off / low power standby when i go out and
reboot every few days (i can reboot, there only seems to be a problem
when it has been off for a few hours), and see where i go from there.
Base units are coming down in price so i want to hang on until the very
last moment, or until this one packs in !!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[gs]

FYI:
I worked with a couple of PCs that usually work fine until switched off for
a while. ( shutdown and turn off the ups). If anyone switch on the ups and
press the front panel power switch on right away, the pc is not going to
boot up but will give either beep or click noises. However, if one waits a
while after the UPS has been turned before pressing the PC's front Power
button, everything is OK.

Visually, capacitors, transistors seem OK.

 

[Andrew]

gs:

FYI:
I worked with a couple of PCs that usually work fine until switched off for
a while. ( shutdown and turn off the ups). If anyone switch on the ups and
press the front panel power switch on right away, the pc is not going to
boot up but will give either beep or click noises. However, if one waits a
while after the UPS has been turned before pressing the PC's front Power
button, everything is OK.

Visually, capacitors, transistors seem OK.

My Power Supply is always connected and always on, so i don't think
that's the case here. It's just when i do a "Turn Off Computer" and
leave it a few hours, it takes lots of attempts to get it back on.
However, if i do a Restart then everything comes on first time !! - it's
weird !!

Regards,
Andrew

 

[DatabaseBen]

it sounds weird, but when metal gets hot then it expands. If there are poor
connections, the heated metal can expand enough to make a viable connection.
Vice versa, cold metal contracts and connections are poor. Although it
sounds like capacitors because they may be taking a lot of time charging up
and or discharging, i think that this would be a constant and not based on
the temperature of the pc. I still think that it could be the switch or
maybe the p.s., if not these components then possibly their connectors...

 

[nesredep egrob]

Please, can anyone tell me what might be going on here ??

A few months back, on the start-up process (just after the desktop comes
on, but while the PC is still "thinking") i heard sometimes 4 or 5

I have an intel motherboard, now 11 months old. It has a similar fault but is
very intermittent, so much so that I have not called on the suppliers to replace
it.

It will sometimes hang on booting. I have therefore chosen the bios settings to
show the progress rather than hide it. When it goes into the sulking mode, I
switch off at the rear, stopping all power to the computer. 20-30 seconds is
enough and the beast will come on immediately on switch on. I suppose I could
keep trying the front switch but have chosen the better way as I spent my
working life as a TV tech and have only too often seen items left on hold having
trouble occasionally coming on stream.

Some times my trouble manifest itself on a reboot.

In my case I leave the UPS on. If you do not have a power switch on the rear
pull the cord (by the plug).

Borge in sunny Perth, Australia

 

[Andrew]

nesredep egrob:

I have an intel motherboard, now 11 months old. It has a similar fault but is
very intermittent, so much so that I have not called on the suppliers to replace
it.

It will sometimes hang on booting. I have therefore chosen the bios settings to
show the progress rather than hide it. When it goes into the sulking mode, I
switch off at the rear, stopping all power to the computer. 20-30 seconds is
enough and the beast will come on immediately on switch on. I suppose I could
keep trying the front switch but have chosen the better way as I spent my
working life as a TV tech and have only too often seen items left on hold having
trouble occasionally coming on stream.

Some times my trouble manifest itself on a reboot.

In my case I leave the UPS on. If you do not have a power switch on the rear
pull the cord (by the plug).

Borge in sunny Perth, Australia

I tried the power cord at the back, left it out one day, left it in
another day, hibernated the machine one day, etc. It just keeps doing
the same thing. Incidentally, today when i took the PC out of
hibernation mode (after 10 hours) by moving the mouse, it just switched
off instead of coming out of hibernation !! - i think this PC is
destined for the bin !!. Still, while it's working i'll keep it !

Andrew