OEM Controversy Update.

A

Alex Nichol

cquirke said:
If a product is activated *and* registered, the possibility exists
that these two data can be linked, ergo

"changer of the motherboard" = "person who registered"

AFAIK this is not even looked at if you have to do a 'manual'
reactivation - which in any case these days is often automated.
Registration exists for a: marketing; and b: entitlement to two free
Product support calls. I have not done it in years.
If your hardware changes "too much" so that WPA launches a DoS attack
against the user (refuses to run except Safe Mode, limited number of
Safe Mode sessions allowed, then death) then you have to phone MS and
beg. Part of your attempts to motivate why you should be spared the
sword are likely to involve surrendering your anonymity (you'd prolly
volunteer this even if no demand was made for it).

No. The point has been made to us *very* explicitly that those handling
manual activation requests are not to ask for any personal details. If
an operator *does* ask, you should refuse and ask to speak to a
supervisor. And no reasonably plausible explanation is to be refused.
The aim is to minimise difficulty to those legitimately installing,
while bringing the conditions home to those who claimed to be unaware
of them
 
K

kurttrail

Philip said:
I am really more concerned about my own personal ethics than what
microsoft does or does not do. As far as I am concerned, this PC
that I am using now is the same PC, even if every component has been
upgraded to something new. If I take all the parts that I have
upgraded an reassemble them to make a new PC then, in my opinion, this
is a different PC and I would be ethically bound to purchase a new
copy of XP if I wanted to install XP on that system.

Do you buy 2 copies of the same book because you have 2 eyes to read with?
Do you buy 2 or 3 copies of the same DVD, because you own 2 or 3 DVD
players? Do you buy 5 copies of the same music CD because you have 5 CD
players? So why do you buy into it being "ethical" to have to buy more than
one copy of copyright material when it's in connection with a computer?

"Any individual may reproduce a copyrighted work for a "fair use"; the
copyright owner does not possess the exclusive right to such a use." - US
Supreme Court

It's not "ethical" for software copyright owners to try to limit MY "fair
use" rights of MY copies of software, in the first place.
I would rather not play either.


I have thought about this a great deal. There is nothing or no one
forcing me to buy or use microsoft products. I could use Linux, BSD
or switch to using a MAC. The computer I chose to use and the
software I chose to install on it are my choice. I read the EULA and
if I found it too restricting I would have chosen not to use it.

You can also choose to ignore it. There is absolutely nothing unethical or
illegal about breaking contractual terms that either violate the law or are
unconscionable. In my book, it would be unethical not to break such terms.

As for having a choice, most people would have to give up years of
investment in computer components & software to be able to use those other
limited choices. Most people are not only locked in to MS software by that
though, but also by pretty much having to learn computing from scratch
again. It is by no means a gun to anybodies head, but switching would mean
taking a big hit in the pocket book, and in having to relearn how to use a
computer.

I just can't afford neither the time nor the money to switch. Oh, I guess I
could give up my RAID, make my $400 video card look like it's a video card
from 1995, give up on my nearly decade of investment in software. But why
should I have to change, just because MS is using their monopoly power to
impose their restrictive licensing on individual consumers that are contrary
to the purpose of copyright to begin with.

"The limited scope of the copyright holder's statutory monopoly, like the
limited copyright duration required by the Constitution, reflects a balance
of competing claims upon the public interest: Creative work is to be
encouraged and rewarded, but private motivation must ultimately serve the
cause of promoting broad public availability of literature, music, and the
other arts. The immediate effect of our copyright law is to secure a fair
return for an 'author's' creative labor. But the ultimate aim is, by this
incentive, to stimulate artistic creativity for the general public good.
'The sole interest of the United States and the primary object in conferring
the monopoly,' this Court has said, 'lie in the general benefits derived by
the public from the labors of authors' . . . . When technological change has
rendered its literal terms ambiguous, the Copyright Act must be construed in
light of this basic purpose." - http://laws.findlaw.com/us/422/151.html
This applies to life in general. We are to a certain extent defined
by the choices we make.

And the way it looks now, we will be defined as the generation that first
accepted technological controls over our lives. I'm sure our
great-great-great grandchildren will be spitting on our graves!
I try to live my life knowing I have, to
the best of my ability, done the right thing.

I'm sure that GW Bush believes that using pre-emptive violence, to stop some
imaginary threat from Iraq, was "the right thing" to do too, and so did the
911 hijackers believe that what they were doing was "the right thing." Yet
Osama & the leaders of the Taliban still roam free, but Sadam's in jail,
without even a shred of evidence that he or his country posed any immediate
threat to the US, GB, or the Persian Gulf.

In the light of History, many, many not-so-right-things have been done by
those believing they have done "the right thing." When "the right thing"
has to be enforced by military force & lies, or by technological controls on
human actions & rights, is it really "the right thing?"

Prohibition was "the right thing" to do in it's time. Today "the right
thing" is embodied in the "War on Drugs." And in the realm of corporate
copyright owners, the prohibition on the individual's "fair use" rights, is
"the right thing."

So is it really "the right thing" to use a post-sale shrinkwrap license to
try to strip from individuals their "fair use" rights? I'm sure that the
corporate entity of MS does believe that it's "the right thing," but as an
individual human being, do you?

Why don't you try and question the actions of the corporate entity too? The
"choice" that is imposed may not be "ethical" in the first place. The
rights of corporate entities verses the rights of the individual in the
privacy of his home. That is really the "choice" we have to make, just keep
in mind those expectorating "great-great-great grandchildren," because this
generation will be making this choice for the generations to come.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
K

kurttrail

Activation is anonymous and compulsory.

Registration is not anonymous and is "optional", but in the same sense
as using passwords in XP is "optional". Choosing not to use the
option means anyone else can hijack it by doing so; if it were *truly*
optional, you could place on record "the owner chooses NOT to use this
option" so that no further attempts to use the option would succeed.

If a product is activated *and* registered, the possibility exists
that these two data can be linked, ergo

"changer of the motherboard" = "person who registered"

If your hardware changes "too much" so that WPA launches a DoS attack
against the user (refuses to run except Safe Mode, limited number of
Safe Mode sessions allowed, then death) then you have to phone MS and
beg. Part of your attempts to motivate why you should be spared the
sword are likely to involve surrendering your anonymity (you'd prolly
volunteer this even if no demand was made for it).


I live in a place where crime is no laughing matter; 30% schoolgirls
get raped, murder second only to AIDS as leading cause of death in
certain age groups, that sort of thing. Computers get stolen, and
sometimes whoever gets in the way gets murdered.

With this in mind, I find MS's policy on WPA in the case of stolen
computers to be unacceptable. WPA offers the possibility of rendering
stolen PCs less valuable, much as cancelled stolen credit cards are,
but MS does not pursue this; it's purely for their benefit.

I found this out when I called to report three XP PCs stolen after a
break-in that had almost demolished a wall in the process. I wanted
those product keys blocked, and to get replacement keys so when the
victim's PCs were rebuilt, they could re-use their licenses.

The party line was:
- the license is the sticker that was affixed to the PC case
- "we are not in the business of making new stickers"
- "don't worry, insurance will pay for your new copies of XP"

My response was: "Is that official MS policy? If so, it's certainly
newsworthy. What is your name, and can I quote you on that?" At that
point it was declared no, it wasn't official MS policy and I should
not quote the person's name in connection with this, but it remained
unclear as to what the official policy was.

From that day forth, I decided to ignore MS's advice to stick licenses
on cases, and now provide these to the user for safekeeping (as in, in
a safe, bank vault, or other escrow facility). It is NOT acceptable
to me that the theif should be honored as the "licensed user", which
effectively sees MS as profiting from crime.

Up until then, I'd been sticking the license on the underside of the
case, so that a passing person with a pen and paper could not as
easily ballpoint the key, call MS with a story to activate, and go
"yes, I'd love to register!" and thereby "stealing" that key from the
anonymous user in terms of future WPA-triggered squabbles.

Well, MS has always bent the knee for large OEMs in ways that are
beneficial to both MS and OEM, with only the user getting shafted:
- crippleware licensing
- no OS CD, only a HD image that evaporates
- proprietary CD that can't be used on other hardware
- incomplete CDs that leave out Backup, RC, etc.
- "instant restore" CDs that preclude custom or repair installs
- proprietary drivers integrated into CD, no stand-alone form
- BIOS-locking WPA model to "encourage brand loyalty"
- these user-hostile products may be demanded by OEMs...
- ...but they are *discounted* by MS to encourage uptake
OEM gains brand lock-in, and MS gains extra sales where the stunted
(but legal) licenses force a "one PC, two licenses" bonanza.
MS turned a blind eye to software piracy long ago, because it helped
them build there dominence of the desktop. One they monopolized the
desktop, then they started to get more serious about the piracy that
help them buil their monopoly.

Think about this in terms of MS responsability to shareholders.

Shareholders fall into three types:
- company members, for whom stock is a large part of their wealth
- large investors who take an interest in procedings
- small investors who don't have a clue about what's going on

When a company fails to deliver shareholder value, the large investors
usually figure this out, whip up public outrage from the small
investor base, and cause management heads to roll. Where management
are major shareholders (what would happen to BG's fortune if MSFT
traded at 0.01 per share?), they are already well-motivated to ensure
shareholder value is not frittered away.

MSFT has been a great share, because its revenues were pretty much
exploding from year to year. How can that trend be maintained when
everyone has already bought MSware?
- create new products to sell (difficult; the essentials are "done")
- expand into new markets (requires hi-level political influence)
- convert the non-paying userbase into paid licensees (WPA etc.)
- extort more money for the same old stuff (rental, volume changes)
- retire products faster, to stimulate faster replacement sales

If growth cannot be maintained, then it becomes necessary to build
share value in another way - by aiming for blue-chip reliability. Of
the four strategies, revenue protection via forced licensing of
essential use is arguably the best way to do this.

To MS's credit, they are currently not pursuing the last strategy; a
committment to 7-year product support will have the reverse effect.
But that does fit with the "blue-chip" approach, which IMO sooner or
later MS is going to have to embrace.[/QUOTE]

Especially if they ever want to get out from under the glare of the
Anti-Trust spotlight.
MS could position itself as the sole provider of the magic keys that
allow media pimps to preserve their (diminishing) value.

For every obviously wealthy Michael Jackson, there is a faceless media
pimp who has creamed off even more, and who has the good sense to stay
off radar. Imagine if all of these *true* financial masters of the
entertainment industry had to license their DRM technologies from
MS... that sort of monopoly makes desktop ownership child's play.

What other value do media pimps have? The Internet distributes more
effectively, is cheaper, and provides far less barrier to entry than
media companies do. If I'm a musician, I can get my music to global
ears easily via the 'net, without having to beg a company to help. If
I am a consumer in search of a rare item, the 'net can deliver this to
me faster, and with less excuses, than the industry.

The only thing the pimps are better at - and it's a biggie - is
providing income to the content creatror, even when it does so as a
marine-cables-attached trickledown.


To grow into new markets such as China, MS needs big government more
than it needs industry alliances. Expect to see MS doing big
government's dirty work... DRM falls into this category, as it
basically leverages industries USA is big in (entertainment, software)
over industries other countries are big in (food, manufactured goods).

As private companies, Intel and MS can do things that would not
survive public scrutiny if done by government. Consider:
- the Clinton administration floats the idea of Clipper
- public pressure shoots it down
- meanwhile, MS is on the DoJ's rack; damaging info made public etc.
- Intel is next in line for the same treatment
- Intel announces the Clipper-like Pentium III serial number
- Intel refuses to back down in the face of public pressure
- Intel's case dropped by DoJ with no evidence being led
- Intel's P4 lacks the SN feature; not so "essential" after all, eh?

Join the dots...



The rights you save may be your own

Great post! You certainly have a very good understanding about what
motivates corporate actions.

"Which would you rather have, power or money?"

MS's answer: Why choose when you can have both.

I'm afraid the the era of anonymous purchase & use of consumer goods is
over, and I'm partly to blame. I absolutely love shopping over the
internet. Why trudge around a store, when you can shop at home in your
boxers! Electronic commerce demands that all transactions are not
anonymous, and cash purchases are becoming a thing of the past. What we
need is a consumer-friendly technology to verify payment but protect our
right to anonymous cash-like purchases, instead of technologies like PA, DRM
and RFID. Pipe Dream? Probably.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
P

Philip Nicholls

No. The point has been made to us *very* explicitly that those handling
manual activation requests are not to ask for any personal details. If
an operator *does* ask, you should refuse and ask to speak to a
supervisor. And no reasonably plausible explanation is to be refused.
The aim is to minimise difficulty to those legitimately installing,
while bringing the conditions home to those who claimed to be unaware
of them

This matches with my experience. Last year I decided to reinstall
just to sort of "clean house." I had to re-activate manually for
some reason. The person handling the call asked why I was
re-activating I just told him that I wanted to re-format and
re-install. He didn't ask for anything furthur.

I actually had more problems with Office XP. That agent asked
several questions and I detected a bit of an attitude.
 
K

kurttrail

Philip said:
This matches with my experience. Last year I decided to reinstall
just to sort of "clean house." I had to re-activate manually for
some reason. The person handling the call asked why I was
re-activating I just told him that I wanted to re-format and
re-install. He didn't ask for anything furthur.

Why should you even have to explain why? Is it really any of their business
to know what you do in the privacy of your own home?
I actually had more problems with Office XP. That agent asked
several questions and I detected a bit of an attitude.

"The only information required to activate is an installation ID (and, for
Office XP and Office XP family products such as Visio 2002, the name of the
country in which the product is being installed)." -
http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/basics/activation/mpafaq.asp#details

Yeah, I've had the same eXPerience with the Office XP PA reps too.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:
AFAIK this is not even looked at if you have to do a 'manual'
reactivation - which in any case these days is often automated.
Registration exists for a: marketing; and b: entitlement to two free
Product support calls. I have not done it in years.

That's good to hear! The only things I have ever registered were
shareware apps that I paid for, and Eudora (because I just loved the
attitude of Eudora's nags, strange as that may sound).

As a registered MSware user, were you subject to any marketing spam?
My hunch is not; MS seems quite responsible when it comes to
unsolicited email. They have several useful elists that are worth
subscribing to, such as security alerts.
No. The point has been made to us *very* explicitly that those handling
manual activation requests are not to ask for any personal details. If
an operator *does* ask, you should refuse and ask to speak to a
supervisor. And no reasonably plausible explanation is to be refused.
The aim is to minimise difficulty to those legitimately installing,
while bringing the conditions home to those who claimed to be unaware
of them

Again, good to hear. I noticed that after the first few months of the
WPA phone service, the human operators stopped even asking if you
wanted to register as well as activate (before, they asked if I wanted
to register, while making it clear there was no obligation to do so).

My phone is an old pulse-dial type, so I've had plenty of experience
with phone-in to activate new installs (for the PCs I build). I've
used all three methods; Internet, automated phone (both on site at
client), as well as pure human phone-in.

They did scale back hours from the initial 24-hours, but I've
otherwise been impressed with how they've reduced their overheads
through automation while not making the service less user-friendly.

Currently, human phone calls hit a DTMF menu that repeats twice before
falling through to a human, who may use the automated system to read
back the number. When that failed (it loops on "Block A" and does not
fall through to reading the rest of the code), it eventually fell
through to the human operators instead, who knew what had happened and
read me the number I'd been trying to get, without having to re-input.


I have seen two patterns where WPA appears to be a death sentence for
the system's sotware installation. One spurious, one real and nasty!

1) Spurious WPA DoS after inter-HD transfer

I suspect this looks like a WPA issue for the same reason that a
missing or lost Win9x %WinDir% looks like a HiMem.sys or IFSHlp.sys
issue - that WPA happens to be the first code that runs, and finds it
can't access the system's files properly for some reason or another.

I've seen this happen often after attempts to transfer an XP
installation from one HD to another, even when the file systems and
HDs involved were free of defects, and partition imaging was used.

At the blue logon screen, before the user account icons are shown, a
dialog pops up whinging about XP being unable to verify licensing
conditions were met. The only way out of the dialog box is to
"retry", which causes a long delay with no HD activity, then loops to
repeat the same dialog box again - endlessly.

2) Genuine death-by-WPA

There was one peculiar setting in this case that may be relevant; the
user had changed settings so that an old-NT-style "press Ctl+Alt+Del
to logon" prompt had to be negotiated to log on.

Entry was refused on the basis that WPA thought the system had
"changed too much". This was on a laptop, which I'd have expected to
use the large-OEM BIOS-locking strategy - certainly, no hardware
changes had been made. Eventually, after multiple Safe Mode startups,
the system refused even Safe Mode and had to be scorched.

The killer here was: At no time was there an option to activate by
phone. No listing of phone-in numbers, display of the product key to
read to such operators, input fields to enter the value such operators
may provide, nothing. The system would just try to active by Internet
(no user interaction such as choosing or setting up a DUN connectoid
possible), fail (for obvious reasons - who leaves a laptop able to
auto-dial in with remembered password?) and that's it.

If this is typical WPA mileage, then we are in deep trouble. If this
is typical mileage only when Ctl+Alt+Del to login is used, then that
should be fixed, or that option should be suppressed, or at the very
least the problem should be documented.

Oh - the system was NTFS, rendering formal virus check impossible. So
I can't tell you whether malware was present that might have
precipitated WPA DoS attack by deleting WPA info.


--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -
Dreams are stack dumps of the soul
 
K

kurttrail

Alex said:
AFAIK this is not even looked at if you have to do a 'manual'
reactivation - which in any case these days is often automated.
Registration exists for a: marketing; and b: entitlement to two free
Product support calls. I have not done it in years.


No. The point has been made to us *very* explicitly that those
handling manual activation requests are not to ask for any personal
details. If an operator *does* ask, you should refuse and ask to
speak to a supervisor. And no reasonably plausible explanation is
to be refused. The aim is to minimise difficulty to those
legitimately installing, while bringing the conditions home to those
who claimed to be unaware of them

And it's MS deciding what to call "legitimate," not the due process of law.
When is a computer upgraded to the point that it's a different computer? MS
can use PA to decide this question, outside of the due process of law, and
PA-like technology is just in it's infancy, and what it is today, won't be
what it grows up to be.

I really can't believe that there are so many people that are so
near-sighted as not to see the future ramifications of willingly accepting
technological controls on their actions, no matter how innocuous they may
appear to be today.

Has nobody else ever wondered why no science fiction writer has ever dreamed
up a story where allowing technology to control our actions ends up to be a
good thing?

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

I am really more concerned about my own personal ethics than what
microsoft does or does not do.

Sure. What I described is MS's stated rationale for their
regulations, which seems reasonable. As to what MS does, you might
have to care if this forces you to act beyond what you see as ethical.
I have thought about this a great deal.

Me too.
There is nothing or no one forcing me to buy or use microsoft products.

Actually, there is:
- availability of the apps you want
- data lock-in that chains you to such apps
I could use Linux, BSD or switch to using a MAC.

No, there IS a difference between, say, choosing between an app such
as MS Office vs. Open Office compared to choosing an OS such as
Windows vs. a *nix or a MacOS. And that is; the fortunes of several
other players, as well as yourself, may be bound into the decision,
even though these parties are powerless to affect what MS does.

Let's say you have used a particular app for several years, building
up a substantial data set on which your business depends. The app
vendor hasn't "done anything wrong" and the app is still available,
but only for Windows. If Windows becomes unacceptable due to MS
shenanigans, both you and the app vendor lose - your fates are bound
to the behaviour of a third party, over which you have no control.


------------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
The rights you save may be your own
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:
Especially if they ever want to get out from under the glare of the
Anti-Trust spotlight.

Y-e-s, in the sense that hostile court judgements are one of the few
things that could possibly dent share value in a major way.

Right now, the Bush administration a good season for MS, but it would
be better to fix that risk so share value doesn't falter whenever a
less sympathetic administration is voted in every 4 to 8 years.
Great post!
Thanks!

You certainly have a very good understanding about what
motivates corporate actions.

Erm... more likely I just guess well. Time will tell :)
I'm afraid the the era of anonymous purchase & use of consumer goods is
over, and I'm partly to blame.

My take: It's inappropriate to demand (let alone force) a direct
relationship with a client (e.g. pressure to register) if you deny
that client direct access to you (e.g. for support).

If you sell goods through "the channel", i.e. through one or more
resale layers (in the case of MS here, it's through core disties to
regular disties to resellers to client), and then hide behind those
layers of insulation, then you forfeit the right to know who your end
users are. Especially where OEM product is concerned.

MS aren't the only one playing this game, or even playing it the
hardest. Notice how many software (even device driver) products
pollute the startup axis with registration nags? Take a bow, HP!


--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -
Dreams are stack dumps of the soul
 
A

Alex Nichol

cquirke said:
There was one peculiar setting in this case that may be relevant; the
user had changed settings so that an old-NT-style "press Ctl+Alt+Del
to logon" prompt had to be negotiated to log on.

Entry was refused on the basis that WPA thought the system had
"changed too much". This was on a laptop, which I'd have expected to
use the large-OEM BIOS-locking strategy - certainly, no hardware
changes had been made. Eventually, after multiple Safe Mode startups,
the system refused even Safe Mode and had to be scorched.

The killer here was: At no time was there an option to activate by
phone. No listing of phone-in numbers, display of the product key to
read to such operators, input fields to enter the value such operators
may provide, nothing. The system would just try to active by Internet
(no user interaction such as choosing or setting up a DUN connectoid
possible), fail (for obvious reasons - who leaves a laptop able to
auto-dial in with remembered password?) and that's it.

Difficult to comment on a particular case. But if WPA has ceased you
ought to be able to logon in Safe mode as 'Administrator'. From that
you ought to be able to run
Start - All Programs - Accessories - System Tools - Activate Windows
and take the activate by phone option.

There is one potential problem - especially if he has used one of the
programs that makes cosmetic changes to splash/welcome screens., and I
have also heard it attributed to XP Anti-Spy. They deregister the dlls
used, and you need to run the two lines
regsvr32 regwizc.dll
regsvr32 licdll.dll

to put them back in use.

One that always bothers me is the way the windows\system32\wpa.dbl and
wpa.bak are wide open to malware - a backup of those off the
machine,seems a wise precaution; then if needed put them back using a
repair console boot

On initial activation (in your builder capacity) I think the initial
activation at boot where it dials for itself is tricksy. I suggest
setting up a DUN connection, by way of testing that anyway, connect to
the net and then use the activate windows wizard manually to activate on
the net
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

Pushing that thought on the stack for now...
Difficult to comment on a particular case. But if WPA has ceased you
ought to be able to logon in Safe mode as 'Administrator'. From that
you ought to be able to run
Start - All Programs - Accessories - System Tools - Activate Windows
and take the activate by phone option.

I would have tried that, but somehow it didn't work - it was one case
and the details escape me, but there was some reason why it failed.
Maybe the option wasn't there, or something.
There is one potential problem - especially if he has used one of the
programs that makes cosmetic changes to splash/welcome screens., and I
have also heard it attributed to XP Anti-Spy. They deregister the dlls
used, and you need to run the two lines
regsvr32 regwizc.dll
regsvr32 licdll.dll

Pop that thought off the stack - this was a fairly security-conscious
user who'd chosen to force the Ctl+Alt+Del logon, presumably through a
native NT setting somewhere (i.e. I don't think he used a 3rd-party
tool). Would that bonk the relevant .dlls?

If Safe Mode refuses to work, can this be done from XP's one and only
approximation of a maintenance OS, the Recovery Console?
One that always bothers me is the way the windows\system32\wpa.dbl and
wpa.bak are wide open to malware - a backup of those off the
machine,seems a wise precaution; then if needed put them back using a
repair console boot

Does XP's WPA latch into f8$!-you mode, or will giving it a "hey, no
problem" set of WPA data take the curse off? Most tripwires latch
into alarm mode and once tripped, can't be easily mollified.

Yes, this subsystem basically hands malware a destructive payload on a
plate - and an outbreak that triggers worldwide demand to "just phone
up to re-activate" could easily swamp MS's resources. Not a good
thing to create the situation where your company is the key weak link
that leads to a global IT downtime crisis, having deliberately created
the seeds of this crisis for personal gain. Class action, jury trial?
On initial activation (in your builder capacity) I think the initial
activation at boot where it dials for itself is tricksy. I suggest
setting up a DUN connection, by way of testing that anyway, connect to
the net and then use the activate windows wizard manually to activate on
the net

The initial build activation's OK, because you still have a working OS
and the UI to point to the telephone option still exists. Because of
the risk of mixing up product keys when building PCs in batches, I
usually prefer to "change product key" at the last moment, so that I
know the CD in the bag (and on invoice) is the one it's built with.

It's when the PC won't let you in that you are hosed. Under those
circumstances, IMO it is *MANDATORY* to maintain the activate-by-phone
interface, complete with key-changing opportunity. No change in
settings should snooker you out of that facility.

This falling over due to lost .dlls makes me wonder just how big a
dependency footprint this WPA mess has - i.e. the full list of all the
files and settings that have to work perfectly to keep it alive.


--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -
Dreams are stack dumps of the soul
 
P

Philip Nicholls

Why should you even have to explain why? Is it really any of their business
to know what you do in the privacy of your own home?

It really didn't come off as any sort of inquisition with my need for
reactivation riding on the answer. It was late at night I got the
feeling he was just making conversation while he looked things up.
Ok, I forgot the best part. His computer crashed right in the middle
of the operation and we had to wait for it to reboot. We had a good
laugh about that one.
"The only information required to activate is an installation ID (and, for
Office XP and Office XP family products such as Visio 2002, the name of the
country in which the product is being installed)." -
http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/basics/activation/mpafaq.asp#details

Yeah, I've had the same eXPerience with the Office XP PA reps too.

Should I need to reactivate again ( and I will soon as I get a new
hard disk) I'll remember to quote that line.
 
A

Alex Nichol

cquirke said:
If Safe Mode refuses to work, can this be done from XP's one and only
approximation of a maintenance OS, the Recovery Console?


Does XP's WPA latch into f8$!-you mode, or will giving it a "hey, no
problem" set of WPA data take the curse off? Most tripwires latch
into alarm mode and once tripped, can't be easily mollified.

If you can't boot to Safe Mode, at least as Administrator, then there is
something more fundamentally in trouble. The best next step in XP is
usually the Setup - Repair Installation one. This is where OEM setups
of he big maker type that do not provide a means to get at that are so
nasty.

A wpa.dbl as backed up from the machine and restored from recovery
console should put things back. And is useful if there are hardware
changes that go OTT, so that the category concerned is now voting no
(and will stay that way). If you unwind the change and then restore the
wpa. files things will come right. Two points about those files though
- one is that they are explicitly excluded from System Restore; the
other is that they are based on a specific instance of installation (I
think by having its date included), and while they should be fine over a
repair reinstall (have them to hand in case they get damaged) they are
no longer valid after a format and clean install
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:
If you can't boot to Safe Mode, at least as Administrator, then there is
something more fundamentally in trouble.

Can be:
- you've used up your post-WPA-DoS permitted Safe Mode startups
- something else is wrong

The latter is extremely common in the real world, and where something
is wrong at levels beneath the OS layer of abstraction, anything can
happen. On that battlefield, WPA is just an additional fragility.
The best next step in XP is usually the Setup - Repair Installation one.

Is that the famed/dreaded "repair install", i.e. an over-old
re-installation of Windows?
This is where OEM setups of he big maker type that do not provide
a means to get at that are so nasty.

Yes, I wish MS would assert some quality control in the user's
interest there. Now that we have WPA to bully us, surely we can be
spared these de facto obstacles to unrestricted OS installation use?

It's sooo hypocritical to tell users they should avoid pirated warez
because it's less likely to work properly, and then encourage OEMs to
ship license-legal CDs that *definitely* don't work properly.
A wpa.dbl as backed up from the machine and restored from recovery
console should put things back. And is useful if there are hardware
changes that go OTT, so that the category concerned is now voting no
(and will stay that way). If you unwind the change and then restore the
wpa. files things will come right. Two points about those files though
- one is that they are explicitly excluded from System Restore; the
other is that they are based on a specific instance of installation (I
think by having its date included), and while they should be fine over a
repair reinstall (have them to hand in case they get damaged) they are
no longer valid after a format and clean install

Hoy, so much extra work to do, purely for MS's putative benefit :p


--------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - -
Dreams are stack dumps of the soul
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top